Death and lots of Danger Now?

[Gaybutton]

Germany "urgently" advises against travel to Bangkok

 

By Deutsche Presse Agentur

 

Berlin - The German foreign ministry expressed "great concern" at the violent clashes in the Thai capital Bangkok on Friday, and "urgently" advised against travel to the city.

 

The German embassy had scaled back its work to a bare minimum but remained open - unlike some other embassies - a foreign ministry spokesman said.

 

Germany "urgently" advises against travel to Bangkok

[Guest fountainhall]

I do not think the protest has gone far beyond reasonable . . . Only a complete dictatorship can succeed with this kind of tactic, and I am afraid that is where Thailand is headed. Would you be happy if Thailand became like Burma?

I am totally with z909. I have made my views known in other forums on this site and I will not repeat them now. I am not sure if KhorTose lives in Thailand and has witnessed at first hand what has been happening to the centre of the nation's capital. I do not condone violence, but equally I cannot condone the taking over of the centre of a city and paralysing it for almost 2 months. This is way beyond any form of legitimate protest.

 

Equally, I believe the military and the government have shown themselves to be utterly and unbelievably incompetent. But then of course, we all know who is behind the protest and who is funding it. When it all started, I suggested it was this crook's last throw of the dice. He has to win now - or he lives in exile forever. The blood being spilled should be on his conscience - if he has one.

[Bob]

This is way beyond any form of legitimate protest.

 

If one looks at just what's happened the last couple of months, it'd be very difficult for anyone to disagree with you; however, it's a bit more understandable if one only considers what's happened in the last five years and how all of that led to much of this.

 

Sadly, it's a mess and there will be no reconciliation in the forseeable future. I just hope it doesn't get worse (and, frankly, I do expect that in the future in the aftermath of future elections and/or when the present King should pass).

[Gaybutton]

Here's the latest:

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Subway, Skytrain Not Operating

 

Published: 15/05/2010

 

Subway and skytrain suspend all services on Saturday until further notice.

 

Skytrain stopped running since 4pm while subway stopped its service since 5pm on Friday.

 

The suspension of the services came after the clashes between troops and anti-government protesters which left at least 10 people killed and more than 125 injured.

 

Subway, skytrain not operating

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Red Shirts Burn Public Telephone Booth in Front of Lumpini Boxing Stadium

 

Red-shirt protesters set fire to a public telephone booth in front of the Lumpini Boxing Stadium at 8:57 am Saturday, Jor Sor 100 traffic radio station reported.

 

The fire spread to nearby commercial building and fire fighters could not go in to put out the blaze yet.

 

Sporadic gunfire and explosions were heard in the area.

 

Troops also fired into the sky to warn protesters not to attack them.

 

Red shirts burn public telephone booth in front of Lumpini Boxing Stadium

____________________

 

There has been no further word yet as to Seh Daeng's condition.

[KhorTose]

I am totally with z909. I have made my views known in other forums on this site and I will not repeat them now. I am not sure if KhorTose lives in Thailand and has witnessed at first hand what has been happening to the centre of the nation's capital. I do not condone violence, but equally I cannot condone the taking over of the centre of a city and paralysing it for almost 2 months. This is way beyond any form of legitimate protest.

 

Equally, I believe the military and the government have shown themselves to be utterly and unbelievably incompetent. But then of course, we all know who is behind the protest and who is funding it. When it all started, I suggested it was this crook's last throw of the dice. He has to win now - or he lives in exile forever. The blood being spilled should be on his conscience - if he has one.

 

I do live in Thailand, in the beautiful home of Thaskin in Chiang Mai, and I am totally for the red shirts. These are not ignorant peasants, but people who wish to live in a country where the majority, and not the elite, rule.

One thing that is going to happen is that we both get to see the results. Either Thailand is going to get reform and something that is really democracy, or it is going to go the way of Burma. If Thailand becomes like Burma, I guess you will be happy and at home as peace will be enforced by the rule of the gun, the non-elite will know their place, and there will be even more boys begging for you money and attention, as upward mobility will be stifled under some hair brain scheme like self-sufficiency. I am not sure I could live in such a country.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

Ubon is still quiet, with no sign of trouble. However, it is reported that a grenade was fired at the Bangkok Bank yesterday with no damage and no injuries. These M-79 grenades are really a big shotgun type shell with a projectile..and don't seem to be too effective???

 

I did see a police checkpoint established on the inbound to Ubon highway from the north. There was a fairly large police presence ...about 10 officers... but they were all sitting around and not stopping anyone. I can only guess that this is a checkpoint to stop/check any redshirts travelling from the north towards Bangkok?????

[Guest fountainhall]

If Thailand becomes like Burma, I guess you will be happy and at home as peace will be enforced by the rule of the gun, the non-elite will know their place, and there will be even more boys begging for you money and attention, as upward mobility will be stifled under some hair brain scheme like self-sufficiency. I am not sure I could live in such a country.

I would not be happy and I couldn't.

 

My disapproval of what has gone on in Bangkok in recent months has almost nothing to do with the justification or otherwise of legitimate protest. It has everything to do with limits on the sort of protest Bangkok has seen which throws ordinary hard-working Thais out of work by the tens of thousands and made others - like a friend of mine - bankrupt, the economy of the city (and partly also the country) into chaos, and the rule of law out of the window. As I have said, no party comes out of this with any credit whatsoever. "A plague on all their houses!" to misquote Shakespeare.

[Guest]

I do live in Thailand, in the beautiful home of Thaskin in Chiang Mai, and I am totally for the red shirts. These are not ignorant peasants, but people who wish to live in a country where the majority, and not the elite, rule.

 

Well if the Northerners really want to be ruled by a corrupt red shirt government that lines the pockets of it's leaders and has quite a few other skeletons in the closet, then perhaps some form of devolution of power is required?

[Guest RichLB]

It has everything to do with limits on the sort of protest Bangkok has seen which throws ordinary hard-working Thais out of work by the tens of thousands and made others - like a friend of mine - bankrupt, the economy of the city (and partly also the country) into chaos, and the rule of law out of the window.

I tend to agree with you, but wonder how you would have tried to address the grievances of the red shirts if you had been them. I don't know if petitions were presented to the government or is representatives tried to negotiate, but I suspect that such measures would not have been successful.

 

As I understand it, this current situation began as a peaceful gathering in a public park to demonstrate the numbers of citizens dissatisfied with their view of biased government. Traffic was not impeded and Bangkok residents were not prevented from shopping. Admittedly some stupid actions took place on the part of the red shirts (the performance art of tossing blood to call international attention to their grievances, the entrance into the hospital to find non-existent barracked soldiers, etc.). In response, the government (and several posters here) insisted on dismissing them as paid rabble, ignorant farmers with no real complaints, terrorists, and worse. Until the current escalation there has been little attention paid to what has infalmed them.

 

That brings me to my initial question. assuming you felt as they do, what would have you done to move an intractable government to, at least, address their issues?

[Guest GaySacGuy]

I'm afraid that this is becoming more serious by the minute.

 

This is from Yahoo news. Complete at :

Clashes, blasts for 3rd day in besieged Bangkok - Yahoo! News

 

Embassy offers evacuation of families of staff

 

AP – An anti-government demonstrator throws petrol bomb to Thai soldiers in downtown Bangkok, Thailand, Saturday, …

56 mins ago

BANGKOK – The U.S. Embassy in Bangkok is offering to evacuate family members of its staff in the volatile Thai capital and has issued a travel warning advising American citizens to stay away.

Embassy spokeswoman Cynthia Brown says the State Department has "authorized the voluntary departure" of relatives of its employees in Bangkok and "will provide financial assistance" for their travel.

Brown says the U.S. also issued a "travel warning advising all citizens to defer travel to Bangkok."

Until Saturday, the U.S. had placed Bangkok under a "travel alert" that advised citizens to defer nonessential travel.

 

 

MY OPINION ONLY: The redshirts seem to be fractured into several groups, and most of those groups are in fighting contact with the army. Unless someone back down, this isn't going to get better for a while.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gaybutton]

There are so many stories coming out now that keeping up with it all and posting it all here has gotten to be too much. If you are not reading the news sites yourself, in a nutshell the violence continues to escalate. There have been more injuries and deaths - on both sides. Acts of vandalism are becoming rampant. The Red-Shirts are threatening to seize government buildings. More troops are being sent to Bangkok. There have been no further reports published about Seh Daeng's condition.

 

The Red-Shirt stalwarts are simply refusing to give in and by now they have to know their lives and freedom are at serious risk. Today a Thai court sentenced 27 Red-Shirts to 6 months in prison.

 

The situation is expected to grow worse.

____________________

 

"There are causes for which I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill."

 

- Mahatma Gandhi

[Guest fountainhall]

That brings me to my initial question. assuming you felt as they do, what would have you done to move an intractable government to, at least, address their issues?

That's a fair question, but I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction. Since I have argued that what the red shirts have done in Bangkok is absolutely inexcusable, I think you have to really examine their alleged grievances before you can come up with a response.

 

Yes, I totally agree that someone needs to pay much more attention to the poor - to their rights, their way of life and their incomes. But one of the red shirts demands has been new elections. They say the present government is illegitimate. Yet, it is not uncommon in democracies when no one party has a majority for groups of parties and/or parliamentarians to agree to work together, even though none has an absolute majority. This is exactly what happened when Thaksin first came to power, and it happened again when the most recent government before Abhisit's collapsed. In such circumstances, Abhisit was able to form a coalition. There are some people who post on this site who express the view that this is not democracy and that there should be elections to confirm Abhisit and his party's legitimacy. IMHO that is rubbish. Look at many democracies in Europe and elsewhere. A change of government mid-term is not unusual. Whilst an immediate vote to confirm a new government's legitimacy might sometimes happen, I do not think (but am not 100% sure) that most countries' constitutions mandate this. After all, parliamentary democracy is not quite the same as presidential democracy.

 

What the red shirts' leaders and their paymaster want is elections now, whether or not that is constitutionally required. They also want an end to corruption. But who is more corrupt than Thaksin himself? I have heard some red shirts say that all politicians are crooks; so why pick on Thaksin? But the pot calling the kettle black is no argument in my book. Since the government has a fixed lifetime, why did the red shirts not slowly mobilise their forces to make sure their parties would be voted in with an absolute majority once the election is held? Not difficult, I would imagine. They could surely then have run the country almost as they wished. So why resort to the extreme lengths they have adopted instead of building their power base so that it was impregnable? The answer, of course, is that the puppet master Thaksin was running out of time - and probably slowly out of his ill-gotten finances. It is no coincidence that he chose the March rally date almost immediately after the Supreme Court verdict on his finances.

 

I suppose the counter to this is that perhaps the red shirts feared another coup. Personally I do not think politics at any level can work on the basis of what might happen. Politics, as one eminent British politician titled his biography, is the art of the possible.

 

So, the only answer I can give is that the red shirts gave up all legitimacy by plundering the centre of a capital city and plunging the country into an international crisis of major proportions. Ordinary decent citizens of whichever colour will all suffer as a result. This demonstration has, in my view, far less to do with the mass of the people as it has about a few power hungry men.

[Guest RichLB]

That's a fair question, but I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction. Since I have argued that what the red shirts have done in Bangkok is absolutely inexcusable, I think you have to really examine their alleged grievances before you can come up with a response.

 

you present a compelling analysis. I, too, wish they had shown patience. But, I think their dissatisfaction extends beyond just wanting new elections. If I remember correctly, Thaksin was displaced by a coup and an election was held which was voided by the courts (most probably correctly because of corruption). But, the Thais I have talked to from the north are concerned with far more that election procedures. They are being shaken down by government officieals and powerless to do anything about it, industrial waste has poisoned their rice fields (specifically the Alcoa Plant in Mae Sot), the education system is abysmal where even non-English speaking teachers are teaching English, etc. I, too, wish they had waited for regularly scheduled elections, but sympathize with their anger. If I was them, I would be more concerned with my friends and neighbors being starved out of their livlihood than some business men suffering a loss of business.

[PattayaMale]

I tend to agree with you, but wonder how you would have tried to address the grievances of the red shirts if you had been them. I don't know if petitions were presented to the government or is representatives tried to negotiate, but I suspect that such measures would not have been successful.

 

As I understand it, this current situation began as a peaceful gathering in a public park to demonstrate the numbers of citizens dissatisfied with their view of biased government. Traffic was not impeded and Bangkok residents were not prevented from shopping. Admittedly some stupid actions took place on the part of the red shirts (the performance art of tossing blood to call international attention to their grievances, the entrance into the hospital to find non-existent barracked soldiers, etc.). In response, the government (and several posters here) insisted on dismissing them as paid rabble, ignorant farmers with no real complaints, terrorists, and worse. Until the current escalation there has been little attention paid to what has infalmed them.

 

That brings me to my initial question. assuming you felt as they do, what would have you done to move an intractable government to, at least, address their issues?

 

As I understand it, this protest was not to present the government with grievances. It was provocative and meant to disrupt from day 1. I certainly had a great deal of trouble getting to Bumrungrad Hospital when the protests began. Roads to 11 hospitals were blocked early on. Thaskin even tried to negotiate getting his funds held by the government by agreeing to stop the protest if his money was returned.

 

Due to the death of my long time farang friend, I needed to travel to Isaan area and up to Northern Thailand. I was amazed how many poor farmers I met that did not support the current version of Reds but did like Taskin.

 

Also why do some poster fail to recognize that one of the elected parties (Phu Thai)that take orders from Taskin and support the Reds. This party has the legal avenue to get legislation adopted for their Red supporters. Some other parties that use to support Taskin, withdrew their support of Taskin but still supported the rural poor. That (Newin) party formed a collation with the Democrats and a few other small parties which made the government.

 

This is very similar to what just happened in England. The Conservative party got the most votes but not a majority to form a government. If the Liberals supported the Labor party, Labor would still have control of the government. But the Liberals supported the Conservatives so the Conservatives formed the government.

 

Back to Thailand, where the Phu Thai (Reds) could not form a government because they could not get the necessary backing of the other parties. The Democrats did get backing and formed the legal government. Thaskin was furious with Newin who use to support him. Thaskin bankrolled the Reds to do his bidding because he could see his dream of coming back to Thailand slipping away. Right after Taskin lost in court, the Reds started to up the pressure. BUT it was the Phu Party as a legal opposition party that should have addressed the issues of the rural poor. In fact early on Newin's faction got the majority to put in place several programs to help the rural poor. One included getting a real deed to there property that the government many years ago gave families but it was given then without a true deed. Another was subsidizing rice when prices started to fall. Other policies were waiting to be approved when the financial crisis hit. This limited money available to fund these projects.

 

So if the rural poor did not get their grievance heard, the blame lays on Thaskin's Phu Thai party. But Taskin was not fighting for the poor then. He was fighting to stay out of jail and get his BILLIONS held by the legal government and controlled by the courts back. This case worked its way through the legal system and Taskin lost.

 

Remember Taskin got to stay in office his first term even though he filed many false statements which violated election law. The Supreme court in a controversial split decision allowed his election to stand. The Thai system was good enough for him then, but when he was convicted, Thaskin no longer believed in the courts.

 

Lastly, Thaskin promised people like Maj. Gen. Khattiya Sawasdipol a role in Thaskin's new government. He was getting his orders from Thaskin up until the day he was shot.

 

So this protest has NEVER been about the rural poor. They were pawns and have been deserted in the "war zone" by their leaders.

[Guest]

Clearly this protest needs to be stopped by force.

 

Also, the government MUST continue and hold elections at the end of their term and not before. Otherwise, the protests will be seen to have had an effect & we may see repeat performances in future years.

[Guest fountainhall]

But, the Thais I have talked to from the north are concerned with far more that election procedures. They are being shaken down by government officieals and powerless to do anything about it, industrial waste has poisoned their rice fields (specifically the Alcoa Plant in Mae Sot), the education system is abysmal where even non-English speaking teachers are teaching English, etc.

I am sure you are correct. But you will I think agree that these are not things that just happened under the Abhisit government. They are a result of years of corruption, abysmal management, the elite favouring the elite etc. Is that a valid reason for what has happened in Bangkok in the last two months, though? Of course it isn't. Even if you look back at the French revolution and the street barricades that were erected in many parts of France in 1789, there were far more compelling reasons for revolution than in Thailand in 2010.

 

. . . the government MUST continue and hold elections at the end of their term and not before. Otherwise, the protests will be seen to have had an effect & we may see repeat performances in future years.

This is surely the biggest mistake the protest leaders have made. In any major dispute, either one party routs the other so completely that it is metaphorically dead and buried. If not, then the party who is seen to have 'won' must ensure that the other does not completely lose 'face'. The red shirts carried everything to such extremes that there was no way the Abhisit government could have given in to their demands. After the protest moved into the heart of the city, the leaders' strategy was all wrong. As a result, far too much blood will be spilt and Thailand is seen by the rest of the world as a third world state. The damage, as I have said before, is - and will continue to be - incalculable for a long time to come. And all Thais, red shirts included, will suffer.

[Gaybutton]

The damage, as I have said before, is - and will continue to be - incalculable for a long time to come. And all Thais, red shirts included, will suffer.

Unfortunately, that is the most likely aftermath. I think the outcome will be that after enough bloodshed, the Red-Shirts will be routed from Bangkok and the Abhisit government will prevail. Thaksin will continue to cause as much trouble as he can.

 

But what will Abhisit be governing? Thanks to the Red-Shirt uprising, he'll have half this country resenting him and the government more than they did in the first place. I think for a long time to come the government will have little choice other than to run a police state or risk the whole thing starting up again.

 

I believe that no matter what ends up happening in Bangkok, extremists will start a campaign of terrorist tactics. I don't foresee the more radical Red-Shirts just giving up the whole thing and start tolerating the Abhisit government.

 

As far as I can tell, Thailand is split right down the middle politically. I think no matter what happens in Bangkok, it's only the beginning of many more incidents to come until the election. Even then, no matter what the outcome of the election will be, the next government will still have to contend with half a country in support and half a country opposed.

 

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Abraham Lincoln

 

I think Thailand is already a house divided against itself. I think whatever happens after Bangkok, it's not going to be pleasant. I just hope someone with the intelligence, ability, and charisma comes along before Thailand self destructs entirely.