Police corruption

[bkkguy]

If you want to continue discussing the morality of paying corrupt traffic cops, please start a new thread.

 

OK - what do other people think?

 

bkkguy

[Guest RichLB]

Your poll makes an assumption that I'm not sure I agree with. Firstly, you label these payoffs as "bribes", not fines, and then go on to identify the policeman as corrupt. You leave out the situation where I may have in fact been in the wrong and elect to pay the policeman rather than accept a ticket or submit to arrest.

 

The sad fact is each time I have been stopped by the police, I actually was in the wrong. I offered him the expected 200 baht (I think it has now gone up to 300) and he took it. Maybe he pocketed it or maybe he forked it over at the police station (want to take bets on which one he did?) So, I don't know which of the choices you present describes my situation.

 

As an offshoot, I'll most probably draw the ire of many readers here. I have had 4 occasions to visit the police station in my 11 years here. I have never been extorted for money and I have been impressed by the patience and professionalism of the police each time. Yeah, i know, I may have just been lucky, but my direct experience with the Pattaya police has not mirrored the horror stories that seem to go around.

[Gaybutton]

I agree with RichLB. The question on this poll is a loaded question, to my mind similar to "When did you stop beating your wife?" style questions.

 

However, I think people will get the idea if they read the discussion that prompted this thread on page 4 and 5 of the "Red-Shirt Protests Go Violent" thread.

[Guest jomtien]

Well, isn't giving the policeman 200B to avoid the annoyance of going to the police station giving him a bribe?

[Gaybutton]

Well, isn't giving the policeman 200B to avoid the annoyance of going to the police station giving him a bribe?

I don't think the issue is determining whether to call it a bribe or call it something else. I believe the issue, stemming from the other thread, is whether you are contributing to corruption or being victimized by corruption if you do give the policeman his 200 baht, even when you know you have done nothing wrong when driving a car or motorbike.

[Guest jomtien]

I don't think the issue is determining whether to call it a bribe or call it something else. I believe the issue, stemming from the other thread, is whether you are contributing to corruption or being victimized by corruption if you do give the policeman his 200 baht, even when you know you have done nothing wrong when driving a car or motorbike.

 

In that case I feel like it is contributing to corruption. To not contribute, one would go to the police station and pay it. This is not to say I would do that. I'm sure I wouldn't. Taking the easy way out at times does not make someone an awful person, but it still supports the overall corruption.

[Gaybutton]

To not contribute, one would go to the police station and pay it.

My interpretation of bkkguy's standpoint is even if you go to the police station to pay it, if you know you did nothing wrong, then you're still contributing. Based on his post, the only way I see to avoid being a contributor is to refuse to pay at all and face the consequences. Otherwise, according to him, you're taking the easy way, shirking your responsibility, you're morally wrong, and you're leaving the battle to be fought by everyone else.

 

You know what? In that kind of circumstance I'm going to take the easy way, shirk my responsibility, be morally wrong, and leave the battle to be fought by everyone else.

[bkkguy]

In that kind of circumstance I'm going to take the easy way, shirk my responsibility, be morally wrong, and leave the battle to be fought by everyone else.

 

OK, and as I said in the other thread usually so would I here in Thailand, but as I also said at least have the guts to admit that what you are doing is wrong and that by paying you are ensuring that corruption will continue.

 

if you now seriously believe what you have written here then I think this is a significantly different position than your original cop-out comment that you are "a victim", and are "not contributing to corruption" - and the sooner more people start to admit that both parties in a corrupt transaction are in the wrong then the sooner people might be more willing to do something about it!

 

there are moral issues and there is the reality of our actions and I am not trying to claim that I am morally superior to you in what I do - I just think that it is important to acknowledge the moral issues regardless of what our actions are

 

but you will probably now just accuse me now of not being willing to accept "yes" as an answer as you did in the copyright threads - but the issues are the same, I find comments like "I don't know or care what is right or wrong, I will now do it your way because it is easier" and "I am a victim, I am not contributing to corruption" unacceptable cop-outs and people need to be challenged to think about what they do and why, and if you think that is just me on my moral high horse then that's your option!

 

bkkguy

[Guest RichLB]

I see to avoid being a contributor is to refuse to pay at all and face the consequences. .

I'm curious what, in Thailand, those consequences are. If you firmly believe you are in the right, have witnesses to prove it, etc., if you refuse to pay the fine do you have to sit in jail until you can get a court date? Does that date have to be timely? Is there a bail system here or even bail bondsmen? Does an arrest, regardless of guilt or innocense effect your immigration status? I confess I don't have the answer to any of those questions.

[Gaybutton]

if you think that is just me on my moral high horse then that's your option!

That's precisely what I think. You know why? You don't merely express your opinions. You get personal about it and you express your opinions as if they were fact. Well, my friend, your opinions are not fact. Neither are mine. I notice when you have no valid argument you start resorting to insult and put-down attempts. Unfortunately, with me they don't work. Keep trying, though. With enough practice I think there is a very good chance you might eventually become good at it.

 

Are you ever going to answer the question I asked, three times now . . . the one about what you do to fight corruption in Thailand and what results you've achieved? Well, since you entirely avoid answering that question and since the answer is perfectly obvious anyway, I'll answer it. You do absolutely nothing, give right in if a police officer, even a corrupt one, confronts you, and then get on this board and start posting with a self-righteous attitude if someone, meaning me, won't agree with you. And that's why, in my opinion, your arguments and put-downs have no validity whatsoever.

 

My favorite line of yours is, "at least have the guts to admit that what you are doing is wrong." I'm so grateful to you for presuming to decide for me what I think is right and wrong.

 

Ok, since you are so morally righteous, just let me know where to erect the statue.

[Guest jomtien]

and the sooner more people start to admit that both parties in a corrupt transaction are in the wrong then the sooner people might be more willing to do something about it

 

bkkguy

 

 

Perhaps you should be addressing this to the police that solicit the bribes. What do they think? After all, the Thais have to change the system here, not the expats or visitors.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

So who can show me a choice that is "better" than paying the money to the BIB, and going on down the highway???

 

What really happens if you say, "NO, No Pay!". We heard about going to police station and paying, and one BIB said you have to stay here and go to court tomorrow?? What really happens?

 

Had one experience where we were stopped three times in about 200 kilometers. First time 200 baht. Next time they say going to fast (how did they know..they were standing in the middle of the road in front of me???) and got 500 baht. About 50 kilometers later, another stop, and they wanted more..don't know how much, but my boyfriend made it clear to them that we had already paid enough, and weren't/didn't have more to pay them. They apologized, shook hands even, and down the road we went.

 

I think it is set in the culture that you are going to somehow pay the BIB as their salary isn't enough to live on.

[Guest fountainhall]

there are moral issues and there is the reality of our actions

Here I agree with bkkguy. IF we believe that corruption is wrong and should be stamped out (or, at least, that very serious efforts should be made in that direction with equally serious consequences for those found guilty of corruption), then paying a requested bribe - no matter for what reason, including just because it avoids a huge amount of hassle, is indeed a moral issue as much as it is a practical one.

 

Equally, I believe none of us are saints. So we just pay the bribe and proceed on our merry way. That being the case, those, like me, who have been ranting about the endemic corruption in Thai society, should perhaps tone down our rhetoric in future!

[Guest RichLB]

I, too, agree that participating in corruption only encourages it to contiue. But, I don't know what the alternative is. I've asked here before, and asked my Thai friends, and no one seems to know the answer. If I believe myself to be innocent of the charges and don't wish to pay either the cop or at the police station, what happens to me? What are my options if I wish to make a moral stand over the issue?

[Guest fountainhall]

What are my options if I wish to make a moral stand over the issue?

I'm guessing, but I assume that either you will be formally charged with some 'offense' and then eventually go to court. If you have no evidence that you did not commit the "offense", I wouldn't hold out much chance of acquittal. If you allege bribery, then you may well end up having a pretty hard time from the BIB before you get near the court. Alternatively, if you seem like someone who could make life difficult for the BIB, I suppose you might just be given a severe talking to and the 'case' against you dropped.

 

I remember reading the case about a farang teacher who took his school to court because they had been leaking exam answers to pupils (can't recall if it was on this Board, though). He held his ground, was fired on some trumped up charge, but did end up going to court. It was finally settled out of court and the teacher ended up with a financial settlement. He did not get his job back, though.

[Gaybutton]

I remember reading the case about a farang teacher who took his school to court because they had been leaking exam answers to pupils

I am very familiar with that case. He's one of my closest friends. There was more to it than that, but you're talking about a substantial amount of money they were trying to cheat him out of and he got a settlement on breech of contract grounds. He had to pay attorney fees and this was a civil action, not a criminal case.

 

I'd say that's a far cry from a 200 baht traffic ticket. I don't feel the least bit guilty about paying it and being on my way, no matter how many times bkkguy wants to insist I am morally wrong. RichLB is right. I have yet to meet anyone who has ever flat out refused to pay and took the consequences. I have no idea what those consequences are. Does anybody know? If you refuse to pay, what happens? What can they do about it? The only thing I am sure of is they can hold your driving license. The first thing they do when they stop you is ask to see your driving license. Until you either pay the cop, or go to the police station and then seek him out again to show your receipt, he's got your driving license. Other than that, I have no idea what can happen. So, excuse me for my terrible immorality, but I'm not about to be the one to find out the hard way. And I'll bet neither is bkkguy.

 

In the meantime, I'm not idiotic enough fight a battle I know I can't win just to satisfy bkkguy that I'm being morally correct. I don't see him stepping up to lead the battle either. He says by not fighting it, then I am shirking my responsibility and leaving it for everybody else to fight . . . except him, of course. To me, his version of morality is the same principle of the terrorist leaders leaving it to others to be the suicide bombers. Lecture everyone else on how moral it is, but get involved and do anything himself? No way. Yep, that sure is fine example of morality on his part, isn't it? Should I ask him my question a fourth time?

 

Bkkguy says at least he has the guts. Goody goody. I'll just have to suffer through life being a sniveling coward . . .

 

"Hell, you're just a goddam coward!" - George C. Scott, 'Patton'

[bkkguy]

Are you ever going to answer the question I asked, three times now . . . the one about what you do to fight corruption in Thailand and what results you've achieved? Well, since you entirely avoid answering that question and since the answer is perfectly obvious anyway, I'll answer it. You do absolutely nothing, give right in if a police officer, even a corrupt one, confronts you, and then get on this board and start posting with a self-righteous attitude if someone, meaning me, won't agree with you. And that's why, in my opinion, your arguments and put-downs have no validity whatsoever.

 

I have answered the question at least twice already - I pay the fine and move on, but my pragmatism does not blind me to the morality of my actions and does not negate my right to raise the moral issue here

 

My favorite line of yours is, "at least have the guts to admit that what you are doing is wrong." I'm so grateful to you for presuming to decide for me what I think is right and wrong.

 

Bkkguy says at least he has the guts. Goody goody. I'll just have to suffer through life being a sniveling coward . . .

 

I am just expressing my opinion here same as you and everyone else, but you seem to react very strongly - "[he] doth protest too much, me thinks"

 

 

and for an example of something that could work quite well here perhaps an NGO here could copy Fifth Pillar in India and start distributing 0 Baht notes to give to corrupt officials:

 

Fighting corruption in India - Economist.com

 

bkkguy

[Gaybutton]

but you seem to react very strongly

Yes, when I am subjected to needless put-down attempts as part of the post I get unreasonable about things like that. I'm funny that way.

 

Ok, as far as I'm concerned you can have the last word.