Red-Shirt Protests Go Violent

[Gaybutton]

When stopped for a traffic ticket, I much prefer handing the police 200 to 500 baht rather than go through the hassle of getting a real ticket and dealing with it.

I don't see it quite the way you do. I see the corruption part as being stopped at all when you have done nothing wrong and have violated no traffic rules. To me, that's the corruption. To my mind, in that circumstance there would be no "real" ticket, at least not one in the sense of being based on a valid violation. I see paying off the cop to get out of it not as contributing to the corruption, but as being victimized by it.

 

You can pay the "real" ticket or you can pay the cop. Since paying the cop is much cheaper and without the hassle of going to the police station, you still end up paying either way, but I'll pay the cop. If I have violated a traffic law, that's one thing. But when I'm parting with money, either at the police station or to the pockets of the cop, when there has been no violation then I see myself as being a victim of his corruption, but I don't see myself as a contributor.

 

Besides, either paying the cop or going to the police station, what's the alternative?

[bkkguy]

I see paying off the cop to get out of it not as contributing to the corruption, but as being victimized by it.

 

whilst I agree you are a "victim" I don't agree that you are "not contributing to the corruption" - by taking the easy way out and paying you are refusing to face up to your responsibility and leaving it to everyone else to fight corruption and you are actively encouraging corruption because you have confirmed again that their will be no consequences for their corrupt practices!

 

bkkguy

[Guest fountainhall]

If I have violated a traffic law, that's one thing. But when I'm parting with money, either at the police station or to the pockets of the cop, when there has been no violation then I see myself as being a victim of his corruption, but I don't see myself as a contributor.

I am wondering what the difference is between a driver paying a bribe extorted by a corrupt traffic cop (irrespective of the driver being innocent or 'guilty' of the alleged infringement) and a villager accepting a bribe of whatever amount to vote in a certain way. Are they not virtually identical? You can look at it, as GB does, as the driver and villager being victims of corruption. On the other hand, you can surely also look at it as both being willing participants in what they know to be corrupt practices - even though in the case of an innocent driver, it is clearly much more convenient and avoids considerable hassle just to pay the bribe. And if you are an active participant in an action involving a bribe, are you not as 'guilty' as the one seeking and accepting that bribe?

[Gaybutton]

if you are an active participant in an action involving a bribe, are you not as 'guilty' as the one seeking and accepting that bribe?

I don't see it that way. I see it as being victimized by the police and given no practical means of doing anything about it other than just not liking it. I don't know what you expect a farang driver to do when these minor incidents occur. If you listen to people like bkkguy, then I'm supposed to try to take on and fight a battle against corruption, a battle that I have absolutely no chance of winning. Charge of the Light Brigade! Huzzah! I'm not here to do that and I'm not here to try to fight a losing battle that isn't worth it to me to bother with even if I could win.

 

This kind of corruption is, rightly or wrongly, a part of life in Thailand. I can live with it, stop driving, or pack my bags. If there's anything else I can do without becoming the next Don Quixote, I'd like to know what it is. Refuse to pay? Take it to court? Go to jail over it? Get kicked out of Thailand over it? Not me. If others want to fight it, go for it. I'll just go on merry way being a victim of it once in a while and accept the fact that I might lose a couple thousand baht per year over it.

 

Oh, and by the way bkkguy, let's hear all about what you have done to fight corruption and all the positive changes that have occurred in Thailand as a result of your heroic efforts.

 

taking the easy way out and paying you are refusing to face up to your responsibility and leaving it to everyone else to fight corruption

"Go on, tell me about it, Cole. Tell me about how if it was you, you'd have done it different."

- Robert Mitchum, 'El Dorado'

[bkkguy]

Oh, and by the way bkkguy, let's hear all about what you have done to fight corruption and all the positive changes that have occurred in Thailand as a result of your heroic efforts.

 

I am a realist and I understand the realities of life in Thailand and faced with the scenario you presented I too would usually take the easy way out and pay and move on but I at least have the guts to admit that my actions are morally wrong and will ensure the continuation of corruption here but I think your attitude of waving your hands in the air and claiming you are an innocent victim of corruption is wrong and is a cop out!

 

in India a group started printing 0 Rupee notes to give to officials who demanded corrupt payments - it could be on interesting experiment here!

 

bkkguy

[Guest fountainhall]

faced with the scenario you presented I too would usually take the easy way out and pay and move on but I at least have the guts to admit that my actions are morally wrong and will ensure the continuation of corruption here but I think your attitude of waving your hands in the air and claiming you are an innocent victim of corruption is wrong and is a cop out!

I have to say I agree. However, I'll quickly add that here in Thailand I'd also pay the bribe - so I'd be as guilty as GB. But then I don't drive here

[Gaybutton]

I at least have the guts to admit that my actions are morally wrong

No, what you have is your opinion that it's morally wrong. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that I have to share your opinion. I don't share it.

 

You can call me morally wrong all you want. That doesn't make it so, although I'm sure I'm morally wrong about a great many things. But since you are so morally high and mighty, I'm still waiting for you to tell us what you have done to fight corruption in Thailand, if you've done anything at all other than your usual efforts to put me down.

 

Do you realize you are actually criticizing me for doing precisely the same thing you just said you would do yourself? And you expect me to take you seriously? Good luck with that one.

 

We're also getting way off the thread subject again. You can have the last word and then let's get back to the Red-Shirt protests on this thread. If you want to continue discussing the morality of paying corrupt traffic cops, please start a new thread.

[Guest fountainhall]

We're also getting way off the thread subject again. You can have the last word and then let's get back to the Red-Shirt protests. If you want to continue discussing the morality of paying corrupt traffic cops, please start a new thread.

I'm slightly baffled here. Has not much of this thread been discussing the corruption that is endemic in Thailand? And is the ending of corruption not one of the key platforms of the red shirt protests? So how come recent posts are "way off the thread subject"?

[Guest RichLB]

I'm slightly baffled here. Has not much of this thread been discussing the corruption that is endemic in Thailand? And is the ending of corruption not one of the key platforms of the red shirt protests? So how come recent posts are "way off the thread subject"?

I'm afraid I must take some responsibility for the diversion. In an earlier post I was attempting to point out how endemic correption is and used the example of traffic violations to illustrate how even we farang participate in that corruption.

 

I should have gone on to mention that corruption is not just a Thai problem. In terms of vote buying, we in the United States (and I imagine everyplace elce, too) do the same thing. We just do it more surreptitiously through promising Congressional districts a new road, a bridge to nowhere, or not to close a useless military base if only a favored candidate is elected. Not really all that different from direct vote buying in my opinion.

 

I think we Americans can recognize that even for congressional votes, "bribes" are an accepted practice to secure needed votes for a bill. Not usually cash amounts as has been alluded to in Thailand, but favors to congressmen for their district ie, earmarks) if they "cooperate" with one side or the other. In my book, that's still correption.

 

I don't have any solutions, of course, but I don't think we are fair in pointing fingers at Thailand when most of our home countries do the same thing. I remember in an earlier post way back at the beginning of this thread someone made the observation that Thais accept corruption as a given. They do not engage in the fantasy that a change of government will bring about any change in the practice of corruption. If that's true, the red shirts, yellow shirts, no shirts, white shirts, etc. are most probably far more concerned with getting their share of the pie than they are resolving fundamental morality.

[Gaybutton]

So how come recent posts are "way off the thread subject"?

It was getting into a specific debate between bkkguy and myself regarding only one aspect - my personal morality (or lack of same). This thread is about what's happening with the Red-Shirt protest, the Thai political system, and commentary about it, but not whether farang should be involved in fighting corruption or the morality of disputing or not disputing traffic tickets. This thread easily could have gone off on that tangent and stayed there, so I'd rather see that subject discussed on a different thread.

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

So can we return to the posting of news about the situation in BKK now?

 

What exactly what is happening with the Reds and the situation in Thailand? I am afraid I have to depend on the posts here to get a better picture of the situation than what the newspapers in Malaysia give.

 

Xian

[KhorTose]

So can we return to the posting of news about the situation in BKK now?

 

What exactly what is happening with the Reds and the situation in Thailand? I am afraid I have to depend on the posts here to get a better picture of the situation than what the newspapers in Malaysia give.

 

Xian

 

Xian, your paper in Malaysia is better then what we get from our papers here. I too have found more information on this board then anywhere else. Yes, back to the topic. I have not contributed as I am busy on another project at the moment, but you all have offered some great comments and given me much to ponder.

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

I don't know about other papers but I can tell you that I would much rather read the first hand reports about the actual situations in various parts of BKK here than get a compressed editorial about the happenings around the protest venues. They give everyone the wrong impression that the whole city is up in arms. And I know that can't possibly be true.

[Guest fountainhall]

They give everyone the wrong impression that the whole city is up in arms. And I know that can't possibly be true.

Absolutely correct. Yesterday there had been rumours that the red shirts would march down to Silom to protest outside the headquarters of the Bangkok Bank. Apparently, some of their leaders' bank accounts have been frozen and they see the Bank as a symbol of the ruling class. The army chief announced that road barricades had been set up on Rajadamri to prevent this. I went to the upper part of Silom entering via Rama 4 around 4:00 pm and had coffee in Starbucks on Soi Convent. There was not a red shirt to be seen anywhere.

 

The main protests are confined to a small area by Central World. The protesters also seem to control access to this area with barriers at some road intersections. Unfortunately for many tourists, this means access to a number of 5-star hotels is very restricted and Central World is virtually closed. I have not yet been to Paragon, scene of the main protest for a couple of weeks before they moved on to Central World, but will try to do so later today.

 

I also heard that something was happening at Victory Monument (or maybe it was Democracy Monument), but have no details. Apart from these, the city goes on completely as normal

[Guest painai]

Yesterday, I went to MBK. It's never been so crowded. That must be because they have mananged to stay open while the Siam complex has had to close. You can see the Red Shirts from the Skytrain. They stretch all along Rachadamri from Siam Paragon to the entrance of Lumpini Park. Yesterday, I walked through Lumpini Park and you can certainly hear the protests and see for yourself first hand. Many of them are using the park's shower facilities in the restrooms. Last evening, I walked down Silom. Some of the shopping complexes and the Bangkok Bank main branch all have barricades set up for problems that may break out tomorrow. Not a good situation.

[Guest frodo]

I go to thaivisa.com (hope its not against the rules to give the website) and view their daily live updates to get the latest news.

[Guest Hedda]

I am not a US citizen, but to the best of my memory I can't recall any protest in the USA which has virtually paralysed the centre a city for as long as the red shirts have in Bangkok.

That's probably because you're not old enough to remember or have studied about the Bonus Army of 1932. They began to arrive in Washington DC in Spring, 1932,living in a tent city, which eventually grew to a crowd of over 40,000, which surrounded the Capitol building on June 17, demanding Congress vote to advance unpaid war bonuses.

 

Six weeks later,on July 28, with the protesters resisting all police attempts to dislodge them, President Hoover ordered General Douglas MacArthur to forcibly remove them. Cavalry led by General George Patton,tanks and infantry with fixed bayonets and "vomiting" gas drove men, women and children out of their "Hooverville" tent city,burning it to the ground.

 

A similar event on a smaller scale occurred in "the Mutiny of 1783," when hundreds of revolutionary war veterans surrounded the US Capitol,then in Philadelphia,for several weeks,forcing the Congress to abandon the capitol and flee to New Jersey.

[Guest painai]

I just came from the Sala Daeng area. Very scary. The red shirts are all lined up by Lumpini Park, singing Isaan music, shouting and have got the street blocked in front of Silom, near Lumpini Park. On the other side, the army is playing music even louder. Many soldiers and police up and down Silom. The pink shirts are passing out flags, asking for non aggression. Lots of barbed wire and parts of the skytrain and MRT entrances are blocked off. It's almost like war could break out at any minute. That kind of feeling. What gets me is how easy it is for tourists to mingle around, they could get caught up in the shooting if it starts.

[Guest fountainhall]

To get a better idea of what is going on with the red shirt protests, I spent 2 hours at lunchtime today wandering through the protest areas. Here are my observations which I hope may be of help to those trying to get a better grasp of the situation here.

 

Area

 

The red shirts control the whole length of Rajadamri Road - from Rama 4 at the junction with Silom right up to Petchburi Road. They also control part of Ploenchit Road from roughly the Central Chidlom Department store across the Rajaprasong intersection to the Paragon shopping centre. When I say control, I mean just that! They control traffic going in and out and three lane highways have become one, because they have erected wall-less tent structures along the sides of the road and in the centre. These provide areas for registration, selling merchandise, eating, sleeping and generally getting away from the heat of the midday sun. Their organization is impressive.

 

Apart from the rhetoric which blazes continuously from loudspeakers spaced throughout the area, it all seems more like a country fair than a political demonstration. Everyone I met smiled at me and was happy for me to take photos, some giving me their addresses in Thai hoping I will send the photos to them (which I will). I was surprised to find a very wide age range of people, from very young children to a lot of middle-aged and some elderly. I did not, as I had assumed I would, see many in the teenage/twenties age groupings.

 

As you can see from the photos, the main stage is erected right in the middle of the Rajaprasong intersection. When I got there, I estimated there were not more than 200 or so actually listening to the speeches. However, making a very rough estimate of all those keeping out of the sun, I reckon there were at least 5,000 spread throughout the entire area.

 

Shopping

 

Gaysorn Plaza, Amarin Plaza and Sogo within the restricted area remain open and can be accessed from the overpass under the Skytrain. Only Central World was completely closed as far as I could make out. I did not get down as far as Paragon, and will check that tomorrow.

 

Hotels

 

Because of the strictly controlled access, guests at the Grand Hyatt, Four Seasons, Intercontinental, Holiday Inn, Centara Grand, Felix Arnoma – and to a lesser extent the Courtyard by Marriott, must be having a pretty hard time. It’s not just the restricted access; it’s much more the constant blaring of the loudspeakers.

 

Army

 

The army chief has vowed that protestors will have no chance of getting near the Bangkok Bank Headquarters on Silom. One report I read said the army had erected a barricade at the bottom of Rajadamri. That is nonsense. As you can see in the photo from the overpass at the top of Silom, the red shirts have another, smaller stage erected at the bottom of Rajadamri and could spill over into Silom virtually any time they wanted, I reckon.

 

That said, however, there were some riot police with shields (not many!) lining the sidewalk near Au Bon Pain. Also, I counted about 80 soldiers lying and sleeping on the overpass leading down to Saladaeng BTS station. All had rifles. If the situation had not been different, I would have lingered and taken lots more photos, as many were extremely handsome guys. But that’s another story! I did notice, though, that when I smiled at the troops, few smiled back. Those not actually asleep seemed much more on edge than the protestors.

 

As painal mentions, Silom also has quite a lot of barbed wire coils along the centre of the road – presumably ready to be used if the red shirts make a break. There is also barbed wire at the entrance to Saladaeng Skytrain station. Unlike him, however, I did not find the situation scary at all.

 

My overall impression was that the people I saw are not hard-nosed protestors who would use dangerous weapons and attack the security forces. Perhaps these guys come out only at night. I have no way of knowing. Only one thing disturbed me. At the bottom of Rajadamri, I saw a truck unloading a lot of bunches of cut bamboo poles - maybe about 1.5 meters in length. At first I thought these might be for erecting the tents, but the tent poles are nearer 2 meters. Only later did I wonder if these are to be sharpened and used as weapons. I just do not know what else they might be used for.

 

Did I change my opinion of the red shirts? Perhaps a little, yes. But I still think no group should ever be allowed to paralyze the commercial heart of any city for such a long time.

[Guest jomtien]

Thank you for the very interesting report and pictures. I hope you bought lots of souvenirs!

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

Thanks for the report, Fountainhall. Unfortunately they are having 'the troubles' at the very places where I usually hang out...*sigh*...looks like I'm going to have to look for a new holiday venue. Maybe Phuket or Bali. Or Batam or Pattaya (twenty years of sex hoolidays in LOS and I still haven't managed to make it there yet...maybe it's finally time), perhaps, unless all these 'interesting things' sort themselves out before the end of June.

[Guest fountainhall]

unless all these 'interesting things' sort themselves out before the end of June.

If you believe the red shirt leaders, all 24 have said they will give themselves up to the police by mid-May. So it may still be worth making your plans for June. Even if they don't give themselves up, I just wonder how much longer the present impasse can go on.

 

There is an extremely interesting but long article on the violence and killings on April 10, especially of the senior army officers, at this link -

 

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LD17Ae01.html

 

I'll quote just a few parts -

 

When assassins dressed in black killed one top military commander and maimed two others in the early stages of the April 10 clashes between Thai security forces and red-shirted anti-government protesters, the precision hits were likely as political as they were tactical.

 

Analysts and diplomats believe that the pre-emptive strikes effectively broke the military's chain of command and contributed significantly to the subsequent random violence that resulted in at least 24 deaths - including five soldiers - and over 800 injuries, many from bullet and grenade shrapnel wounds. Significantly, the three targeted officers were all primed for promotion to top-ranking positions in this year's military reshuffle and all were known loyalists to the deputy army commander, General Prayuth Chan-ocha, who is poised to replace the army commander, General Anupong Paochinda, on his mandatory retirement later this year.

 

The sophisticated nature of the targeted attacks, including the use of laser-guided spot and shoot teams, and the apparent leak of confidential information concerning troops' plans and formations, has suggested to analysts possible military involvement in the assaults . . .

 

In advance of the April 10 violence, coinciding with the start of the UDD's protests, government offices, military installations and private businesses were targeted in a mysterious bombing campaign that UDD leaders have claimed the military orchestrated to discredit their self-proclaimed peaceful protests. Yet some diplomats monitoring the situation felt that certain bombings were coordinated with protest activities and seemingly aimed to provoke a security force crackdown against unarmed UDD demonstrators.

 

An armed response, diplomats then suggested, would have provided Thaksin with potent ammunition to call for a mass royal amnesty that would protect security forces from legal prosecution for killing protesters and absolve him of his court convictions, including a 2008 criminal corruption verdict that included a two-year prison sentence and drove him - before the ruling was made - into exile . . .

 

As Abhisit's government and UDD leaders fire accusations and counter-accusations over who should be held chiefly accountable for the April 10 death and destruction, it is the military's next moves that will determine the country's political trajectory. One palace insider told Asia Times Online that top soldiers had in recent days weighed the possibility of launching a "half coup" that would maintain Abhisit's Democrat party in political power while relieving certain soldiers of their command posts.

 

For his part, Anupong has maintained that politicians must find a political solution to the crisis and this week lent his tacit support to the dissolution of parliament and holding new elections, without mentioning a timetable. But an internal military putsch that replaces Anupong with Prayuth, purges military officers perceived to be under Thaksin's and the UDD's sway, and invokes martial law to clamp down on the UDD, is also a strong possibility.

[Guest fountainhall]

Only one thing disturbed me. At the bottom of Rajadamri, I saw a truck unloading a lot of bunches of cut bamboo poles - maybe about 1.5 meters in length. At first I thought these might be for erecting the tents, but the tent poles are nearer 2 meters. Only later did I wonder if these are to be sharpened and used as weapons. I just do not know what else they might be used for.

Reading posts on other sites, it seems these were indeed later sharpened and have now been strung together to form barricades. I suspect, however, that some are hidden for use as weapons.

[Guest fountainhall]

it seems these were indeed later sharpened and have now been strung together to form barricades

Having seen the barricade at the foot of Rajadamri where it joins Rama 4 late this afternoon, heavily blockaded as it is with a huge number of sharpened bamboo poles, I am once again staggered by the sheer incompetence of the forces of supposed law and order. Some days ago, these forces could easily have created a blockade of their own further up Rajadamri where Lumphini Park ends. The bottom section of Rajadamri could then have become a no-go zone where troops and whatever could eventually be gathered prior to any future military action.

 

As things now stand, if there is indeed an operation in the planning stage for troops to gain access into Rajadamri from the Rama 4/Silom side, it is going to be a massive undertaking that will require, in my view, heavy duty moving equipment and probably tanks. Plus it will mean the complete closure of much of Rama 4 and Silom.

 

These barricades are apparently now in position at all entrances to the protest site. I haven't seen the others and so cannot comment on possible ease of access - or otherwise. But unless there is some talking going on about a possible compromise, moving in to that site is going to take far more than a few hundred police and troops. And what about the thousands of people who live there? As I say, I am staggered!

[Gaybutton]

what about the thousands of people who live there? As I say, I am staggered!

How is this going to affect the Silom-Suriwong-PatPong gay bar area, popular gay hotels such as the Pinnacle, Malaysia, and Tarntawan Place, along with places such as the Babylon Sauna, all of which are in the vicinity you are describing? Also, what about access to these places? I'm guessing you might as well forget about it by car, but what about taxis, motorbike taxis, and the Metro and BTS? I suppose there's always walking, but would you be walking right into a dangerous area?

 

Actually, I've heard these hotels are rather full right now because of the difficulty many are having trying to get home due to the volcano.