Red-Shirt Protests Go Violent

[Gaybutton]

Today both the police and the military moved in to try to start dispersing the Red-Shirts. At the time of this post, 135 injuries have been reported. Thus far no deaths have been reported.

 

The protests have also caused operations to be suspended at 4 BTS stations. There is one report that Red-Shirt leaders have urged protesters to destroy those stations.

 

The USA embassy has issued several alerts, which can be viewed at:

 

Public Announcements and Warden Messages - U.S. Embassy Bangkok, Thailand

 

Both THE NATION and the BANGKOK POST have published numerous articles about today's activities. Rather than pick and choose articles to post here, I think it is better that you check out their web sites yourselves.

 

Bangkok Post

 

The Nation

 

It would be very helpful if those of you who currently are in Bangkok would be kind enough to post your own observations and reports of trouble spots.

 

I'm not in Bangkok, so I don't know how safe or dangerous it might be to go to Bangkok at the moment. What I do know is Pattaya is perfectly safe and everything in Pattaya is functioning normally. There hasn't even been any Songkran splashings yet.

 

Personally I would not choose Bangkok as a holiday spot just now, but all is normal in Pattaya.

[Guest jomtien]

, but all is normal in Pattaya.

 

 

If things were normal in Pattaya I never would have moved here....

[Gaybutton]

If things were normal in Pattaya I never would have moved here....

They were normal until you got here . . .

[Guest]

A friend lives in the area of Bangkok where this is happening. This was his message today:

 

 

Troops surrounding my neighborhood, helicopters in the sky shooting down teargas granades 30m from window on the neighbors roofs,Khaosan in Chaos,anti riot units,soldiers,tourists with fearful eyes,loud shootings of rubber bullets,ppl screaming running down Khaosan,sirens n countless armoured vehicles,only after a long way through back alleys I made it home and had to run the last 100m because of the tear gas!!

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I, unfortunately, had to go to BKK yesterday to US Embassy. It was uneventful except when we were leaving the embassy there was a caravan of cars and pickups on the opposite side of the road. The people were waving red flags and shouting over the PA systems. They all were acting as if they were at a party. If these are supposedly the poor people looking for more equality, how can so many be out partying instead of working? I don't get it.

[Guest painai]

They all were acting as if they were at a party.

It didn't look like a party tonight, instead civil war on the streets in Bangkok.

[Guest]

This just in from my friend: "just got back, we heard the explosions, we saw the site, pools of blood and lots of damage at the Burger King site of Khaosan, according to Yahoo 8 people dead, Thailand confirms 5 people dead,"

[Gaybutton]

At 10:35pm I received the following from a friend via text message. He did not say his source, but here is what he said:

_____

 

FLASH: At least 5 dead, 300 wounded in Bangkok clashes with Red-Shirts.

Report: One foreign tourist was shot in the chest after saying to a soldier "Fuck you."

__________________

 

THE NATION is reporting at least 8 dead, 486 wounded so far.

 

I can't get through to the BANGKOK POST to see what they're saying. I've tried several times, but it won't load right now.

 

In any case, no matter which media source has the latest accurate information, obviously there have been deaths and numerous injuries. It's a shame to see it come to this, but there it is.

[Guest]

BBC has said at least 9 dead.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I just got this from BKK Post

 

 

Violence in the streets

 

UPDATE: After security forces attacked red shirt encampments, eight deaths and hundreds of injuries are reported on both sides. As the army and police back off, the government says it wants peace talks - and the red shirts demand that the prime minister flee. (Photo by Apichit Jinakul)

[Guest HeyGay]

Thai troops pull back from protest clashes; 5 dead

 

The things us guyz do for you girls, I had occasion to drive around BANGKOK Khao San Road, Soranrom Park area tonight, all is quiet now, the Army were even smiling and looked as though they were on offer, well some of them as usual....but when I get home to my Google alerts, in Bang Kapi/ RAMKHAMHAENG area, I find this afternoon was quite a different situation.......but now there was a few guys on offer and even though its not rent day, I think there was a few Army guys, who were willing, nothing changes not even for a Red Coat. read on...............Click half way down the page, if you would like to know more about meeting a nice student for around 500 baht who is not affected and been spoilt by the club scene.

 

 

Thai soldiers and police fought pitched battles Saturday night with anti-government demonstrators in streets enveloped in tear gas, but troops later retreated and asked protesters to do the same. Five people have been killed, including a foreign journalist, and nearly 500 wounded, according to hospital officials.

 

yld_mgr.place_ad_here("right_slot"); Bangkok riot police form lines at Police General Hospital as anti-government demonstrators gather nearby, in Bangkok, Thailand, Friday, April 9. 2010. Anti-government demonstrators continue to defy government orders to disperse. The escalating demonstrations are part of a long-running battle between the mostly poor and rural supporters of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, and the ruling elite they say orchestrated the 2006 military coup that removed him from power. (AP Photo/David Longstreath) <BR class=clear> Thai Buddhist monks pray for peace as anti-government demonstrators gather to shout insults at police outside Police Headquarters Friday, April 9, 2010, in Bangkok, Thailand. Anti-government demonstrators continue to defy government orders to disperse. The escalating demonstrations are part of a long-running battle between the mostly poor and rural supporters of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, and the ruling elite they say orchestrated the 2006 military coup that removed him from power. (AP Photo/David Longstreath) <BR class=clear> Anti-government demonstrators are given free food during early morning speeches Saturday, April 10, 2010, in Bangkok, Thailand. Although rumors circulated that the army would be called in to clear thousands of protesters encamped in the Thai capital Saturday, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva gave no indication that he would veer from his strict adherence to nonviolent measures. (AP Photo/David Longstreath) <BR class=clear> Thai Buddhist monks call for non-violence during an anti-government rally Saturday, April 10, 2010, in Bangkok, Thailand. Although rumors circulated that the army would be called in to clear thousands of protesters encamped in the Thai capital Saturday, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva gave no indication that he would veer from his strict adherence to nonviolent measures.

 

The army had vowed to clear protesters out of one of their bases in Bangkok by nightfall, but an Associated Press photographer said the push instead set off street fighting. He said there was the continuous sound of gunfire and explosions, mostly from Molotov cocktails. After more than two hours of fierce clashes, soldiers pulled back.

 

Army spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd went on national television Saturday night to ask the protesters to retreat as well. He also accused them of firing live rounds and throwing grenades during the fighting.

 

"The security forces have now retreated to a certain extent from the red shirts," Sansern said. He said a senior government official has been asked to coordinate with the protesters "to bring back peace" and urged them to back away to avoid more violence.

 

Four protesters and a Japanese journalist who worked for Thomson Reuters news agency were killed, said Pichaya Nakwatchara, the director of BMA General Hospital. He said most appeared to have been hit by hard objects on the head and some had gunshot wounds.

 

Protesters marched the body of a man they said was killed in the fighting to one of their encampments. They carried the man who had part of his head blown off on a stretcher.

 

The injury toll for the day rose to 486, according to the government's Erawan emergency center. There were reports that several people sustained gunshot wounds. The army said any live rounds were fired only into the air, but confirmed that two of its soldiers had been shot. Government spokesman Panithan Wattanayakorn said more than 60 forces had been injured.

 

click below for details of pick ups around the Park.

 

Royal Palace -pick up area? - GayThailand.com Forum

 

I have no idea why you want to live full time in Pattaya, so much more happening in Bangkok, try the Bang Kapi Mall and Tesco/lotus over the road, wash rooms to start and so many Bars and Clubs make Pattaya look like a Holiday village for pensioners.just a selection below........../.

Thailand must be one of the most cruisy counties in the world. It's very easy to meet guys almost anywhere, on a bus, on the street, in a shopping mall. It's just a matter of eye contact and a little discretion. Western men should know that the 'hard stare' is disliked and may be considered hostile. If you make eye contact with a guy who seems interested, smile !<BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,153)"><BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,153)">It's not advisable to deliberately go cruising at night in parks or away from the main gay areas, as crime does exist and foreigners can be easy targets. Shopping malls (if you are discreet) can be rewarding during the afternoon, evening and at weekends and are reasonably safe. In Bangkok, Sanam Luang and Lumpini Park can be very risky after dark, but Silom Road, Suriwong Road and the connecting sois are pretty safe both day and night, as are the shopping malls, but be sensible. Cruising in "tearooms" or "cottages" is considered dirty, unpleasant and unhygenic by most Thais, although it does go on in a small way.

 

 

Dance Zone (mixed)

 

• Royal City Avenue (opposite the 7-11), 02-203-0490. Located in the once-trendy strip of themed nightclubs. Young local crowd.

<LI>Maa See Kaa II

• 2 Ramkamhaeng Soi 18 (near Ramkamhaeng University), 02-319-8248. Gay anthems to dance to, shows, model contests. Super popular with young Thai gays.

<LI>Ta-Bi Dance Club

• Onnut Soi 37, 02-320-0944.

• • Blue Club
    • 2/F 3161 Ramkhamhaeng Rd (between Soi 81 and Soi 83), 02-732-2360. Thai-Thai music pub.

[*]Club Love Remix

• Lamsalee gay zone, Ramkhamhaeng Soi 89/2, 02-378-4345. Thai-Thai club popular with young gays and university students.

[*]Crazy Dance Party House

• Lamsalee gay zone, Ramkhamhaeng Soi 89/2, 089-444-9669. Thai-Thai club. Young crowd, lots of university students.

[*]E-Male

• 62-64 Ramkhamhaeng Soi 24, 02-319-6772. Local style Thai country music pub featuring drag, lip-sync, cabaret, fashion and handsome man shows. Local crowd.

[*]Finalle

• Lamsalee gay zone, Ramkhamhaeng Soi 89/2, 081-503-5398. Late night gay spot for the young Thai-Thai crowd. Cabaret shows.

[*]Gay Town

• 02-314-4864 ext. 1, 081-268-7930. Another Ramkhamhaeng in-your-face homo hangout.

[*]ICK

• Lamsalee gay zone, Ramkhamhaeng Soi 89/2, 081-442-9472. Thai style disco-pub attracting a local and student crowd late at night.

[*]MTV Remix

• Ramkamhaeng Soi 24, 02-319-8340. One of the many little gay venues opening near Ramkhamhaeng University. Expect very Thai style entertainment, young crowd, pop beats and Thai conversation (if you can even hear each other). Lerrrttt khaaa! (faaabulous).

[*]Zee's Zone

• Lamsalee gay zone, Ramkhamhaeng Soi 89/2, 086-733-8273. Another Thai-style club attracting locals and university students.

 

 

RATTANAKHOSIN -- Grand Palace, Khao San Rd

 

[*]TG Street

• Tanao Rd and Rachadamneon Rd (at the Kok Wau intersection), 089-748-0212. Thai-Thai club near Sa-Ke disco.

[*]

• And many more Saunas, Massage and bars around the area.

• • Straight or gay the distinction isn't made in Thailand as it is in the U.S. In this largely Buddhist country, sex and sexuality come without the guilt and other baggage that accompany them here. Many Thais engage in sex with both men and women, without worrying about how to label themselves.
     
    

Thailand does have a gay culture, but much of it has been created by westerners. As a visitor, looking for nightlife, for gay sex, or for gay friends, this is largely the culture you'll most readily find. Here you'll meet outgoing and friendly Asian men who are interested in meeting westerners.

 

This can give the impression that most Thai men who we'd think of as gay are looking for westerners. That's not the case. But those you meet will often be interested in meeting Americans.

 

Thai culture does not place a premium on youth in the way that western societies do. If you're over 35, you probably feel over the hill in the U.S. You can still be quite desirable in Thailand. This comes as a pleasant surprise to middle-aged and older gay Americans!
 

[Gaybutton]

I had occasion to drive around BANGKOK —Khao San Road, Soranrom Park area tonight, all is quiet now, the Army were even smiling and looked as though they were on offer

Protests, riots, and governments may come and go, but Saranrom Park lives on! May it stay that way.

 

Leave it to HeyGay to go cruising right in the middle of violent rioting. Do you remember the movie 'Oliver'? One of my favorite scenes occurs right near the end of the movie. The villain gets shot and hung. The crowd is staring up at the body swinging on the end of a rope from above. Meanwhile The Artful Dodger seizes that moment to pick a pocket. What does HeyGay do? Pick a boy. I kind of have to admire that. . .

[Guest RichLB]

For those out of the country without access to Thai media, the Bangkok Post reports this morning (11/4/2010 at 9 AM) 15 dead - 10 red shirts, 4 soldiers, 1 Japanese reporter.

[Guest fountainhall]

I'm not in Bangkok this week. But friends here in Pattaya said they had lost one of their young staff recently. He had decided to go to Bangkok to join the red shirts. The lad had expressed no political conviction. He was going, he said, merely because he was being paid Bt.1,000 per day plus food. Having seen some red shirts in Bangkok last week - most of whom seemed in their mid-teens, I expect quite a few of those in the protests were in a similar situation. But, I hasten to add, far from all. I don't want this to become another red bashing/yellow bashing post

 

I mention it only because it reinforces what others were saying some weeks ago about large sums of unexplained cash being pumped in to the country. With violence now having broken out, I assume that many of those who were there for the money will jump ship. Those with stronger political convictions no doubt will now be resolved to stay the course, however long that may be. I am sure we all hope that there will be no more violence.

 

Last word. A propos the storming of the banned TV station last week, I remain totally staggered that any government which deploys massive numbers of troops and police to ward off demonstrators from key buildings, has not agreed in advance with the generals and chiefs how the situation is to be handled so as to avoid precisely what happened - massive loss of face of troops withdrawing to the applause of demonstrators. And this is not the first time - remember the disaster of the ASEAN Conference in Pattaya last year? I realise Abhisit is working with coalition partners, army factions etc. whom he probably loathes and who probably loathe him. But how can any Prime Minister stay in power in the face of such utter incompetence - or, at the very least, not immediately fire the commanders responsible?

[macaroni21]

I realise Abhisit is working with coalition partners, army factions etc. whom he probably loathes and who probably loathe him. But how can any Prime Minister stay in power in the face of such utter incompetence - or, at the very least, not immediately fire the commanders responsible?

 

In the present political arrangement, the military stands independent of the government. The PM has no real power to control military appointments, let alone fire anybody. The military does not see itself as answerable to the PM either. For example, when the truth about the fake bomb scanners broke (after the Science ministry tested them), Anupong, the military chief himself called a press conference to dismiss lab findings and insist that the bomb scanners will continue to be used. Elsewhere, the military chief would have been fired for insubordination, but not in Thailand.

 

In the present situation, the military may be trying to hedge its bets and not carrying out orders with conviction, or the Abhisit govt has been issuing conflicting requests (note: I don't say "orders" but "requests"), e.g. clear out the protestors but stop short of using force, leaving the armed forces in some confusion as to what they are supposed to do.

 

You'd notice that the police are not much involved. I suspect that's because their loyalty is in doubt.

 

Chances are that the military will eventually succeed in clearing out the protestors, but the biggest casualty of such success may well be Abhisit himself. He probably knows that every dead body on the streets is another nail in his political coffin.

 

The Thai problem is political and it needs a political solution, in other words a reform of the system. Clearing out protestors however successful brings the solution no nearer.

[Guest RichLB]

Revision of casualty figures. As of 12:30 PM, 11/4/2010, Bangkok Post reports 19 dead and 875 injured.

[Guest voldemar]

 

 

Last word. A propos the storming of the banned TV station last week, I remain totally staggered that any government which deploys massive numbers of troops and police to ward off demonstrators from key buildings, has not agreed in advance with the generals and chiefs how the situation is to be handled so as to avoid precisely what happened - massive loss of face of troops withdrawing to the applause of demonstrators. And this is not the first time - remember the disaster of the ASEAN Conference in Pattaya last year? I realise Abhisit is working with coalition partners, army factions etc. whom he probably loathes and who probably loathe him. But how can any Prime Minister stay in power in the face of such utter incompetence - or, at the very least, not immediately fire the commanders responsible?

There is a deep split in the Army and most of the soldjers and low-rank officers have the same roots as demonstrators. Army is the last pillar for Thai elite: if there is a break down in the Army , all hell is going to go loose and there will be blood bath. Anupong understands that. Hopefully, puppet masters in BKK understand it too and will try to find compromise soon. There should be real concessions here in terms of redistribution of the land in favor of (numerous) landless peasants.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I am a bit confused about this term "Elite". Does this mean the ruling party? If so, wasn't Thaksin the "elite" when he was the PM?

[Guest voldemar]

I am a bit confused about this term "Elite". Does this mean the ruling party? If so, wasn't Thaksin the "elite" when he was the PM?

Thai elite mostly consists of big land owners and their descendants. It has nothing to do with party affiliation. E.g. Suthep is a big land owner in the South. 1975 land reform

required land redistribution (with compensation) from three sources: crown, big land owners and certain government possessions. The land has never been redistributed from first two sources. Redistribution from government sources was abused by then ruling Democrat party which

lead to the biggest corruption scandal in Thai history and resignation of the government og Chuan Lekpai (the last elected Democrat government). It is all about land , landless peasants and Thai elite who resists land redistrinution.

You seem to be an active participant of these discussions. Why not familiarize yourself

with Thai history (just a little bit).

[macaroni21]

I am a bit confused about this term "Elite". Does this mean the ruling party? If so, wasn't Thaksin the "elite" when he was the PM?

 

It's too simple to equate the Democratic Party as the elite. The party comprises members of the elite and serves the interests of this class, but the elite is wider than that, enriched through cozy business deals and generally centred on the palace. If there is any defining factor at all, I'd hazard the guess that it is in the mind: those Thais who think themselves several notches more superior than the vast majority of Thais, either by dint of education, wealth or royal connections.

 

To an extent, Thaksin was a member of the elite prior to becoming PM since he obviously had the connections to do well in business and get exceedingly rich. But he hailed from Chiang Mai, not Bangkok, and therefore would have been at the periphery of the ruling class. Also, he served in the police, not army, and this probably made him second-class or a johnny-come-lately in the eyes of the core elite.

 

When he became PM, Thaksin chose to throw his lot in with the farmers and lower classes, calculating that this would be the larger votebank. This was seen as an act of betrayal by the rest of the elite, if ever they saw him as one of them.

 

So who/what is the elite? A good, concise discussion can be found in the Bangkok Post mailbag in a letter by Kuldeep Nagi from Assumption University.

 

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/35935/social-divide-is-no-accident

 

Quote:

 

POST BAG Social divide is no accident

 

Voranai's commentary last week ("The middle class really should know better") has raised some important issues. The real question is whether the Thai middle class is uniquely different.

 

In some ways, it is. It largely consists of urban people who were educated in local universities where they did not learn how to ask hard questions. They are part of a top-down system that only produces devoted followers, not much else. In the land of Buddha they are asked to wear a Western-style gown and receive a degree in a grand style. Another strange twist is that the professors and all other government officials in Thailand call themselves civil servants, not public servants.

 

The Thai intelligentsia takes great pride in being a class in itself. The reason is simple. Like everything else, they were also nurtured by the top-down system, where success came with how low they could bow to authority and respect the traditional forces. It is strange that the privileged urban class sometimes thinks that poor people in Thailand are reaping the fruits of their karma _ that it has nothing to do with social injustice, corruption and exploitation perpetuated by the university degree holders or the rich.

 

The fact is that the poor and uneducated in any country are the result of an inadequate political system rooted in its history. In Thailand, for a very long time the system has been held hostage by the degree holders and the urban elite, who have created a kind of political culture where corruption, conformity and loyalty turn into a glow of false pride and patriotism.

 

A divided society is not the result of some unfortunate historical accident. In the history of mankind, social changes have always been initiated by the down-trodden, the oppressed and the disenfranchised. Drastic social change sometimes requires drastic action.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

"Drastic social change sometimes requires drastic action." Are you saying that what is going on in BKK is justified?

[Guest rhodochrosite]

[Guest voldemar]

It's too simple to equate the Democratic Party as the elite. The party comprises members of the elite and serves the interests of this class, but the elite is wider than that, enriched through cozy business deals and generally centred on the palace. If there is any defining factor at all, I'd hazard the guess that it is in the mind: those Thais who think themselves several notches more superior than the vast majority of Thais, either by dint of education, wealth or royal connections.

 

To an extent, Thaksin was a member of the elite prior to becoming PM since he obviously had the connections to do well in business and get exceedingly rich. But he hailed from Chiang Mai, not Bangkok, and therefore would have been at the periphery of the ruling class. Also, he served in the police, not army, and this probably made him second-class or a johnny-come-lately in the eyes of the core elite.

 

I actually disagree with you. Of course, you are entitled to have your own opinion but this is not the definion of main-stream Red shirt movement.

Red shirt movement ( at least Thaksin wing) figths against traditional aristocracy (amataya) which is defined by their economic interests: land ownership. The ultimate goal of Red shirts is redistribute the land in favor of poor peasants.

There are people (e.g. Marxists) who have much more radical goals but obviously Thaksin is not one of them.

Your definition of elite blurs the boundary between traditional Thai aristocracy and the middle class. That was the goal of PAD: to create impression that the interests of Thai middle class and aristocracy are the same. From economical standpoint it makes no sense:

both middle class and poor peasants have the same ultimate goal: rapid economic growth and rising living standards . That at some point will lead to constraint of corruption.

This is, however, impossible without elimination of poverty. The only way to do it is to redistribute the land from amataya to Thai poor. The scenario which I described here was realized in Japan, South Jorea, HK and other advanced Asian Societies. It will be realized in Thailand sooner or later.

What many people do not understand is that removal of Thaksin from leadership of Red Shirt movement may bring new, more radical leaders (there are plenty of Marxists in the wings) and total change of the ball game.

Whether you like Thaksin or not, it is in the interset of expats that the Red movement remained within its current boundaries: namely, seeing their nemesis in traditional Thai aristocracy and fighting for land redistribution within 1975 land reform.

[Guest]

The ultimate goal of Red shirts is redistribute the land in favor of poor peasants.

 

I thought their goal was to redistribute wealth into Thaksin's bank account.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

"Red shirt movement ( at least Thaksin wing) figths against traditional aristocracy (amataya) which is defined by their economic interests: land ownership."

 

Thaksin certainly is a land owner, therefore, by your definition he is among the elite.