Red-Shirt Rally - Day 5

[Gaybutton]

The following appears in THE NATION:

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Blood Campaign is Dangerous : Health Groups

 

By Pongphon Sarnsamak

The Nation

Published on March 16, 2010

 

The Nursing and Midwifery Council is threatening to punish nurses who agree to collect blood from red-shirt protesters for the plan to pour blood around Government House today.

 

"We will consider punishing them on a case-by-case basis," council president Prof Vijit Sriruphan said yesterday. "They should know that collecting blood is only done for research or medical purposes."

 

But she said the council would not go as far as cutting nurses' professional licences.

 

Vijit expressed concern over the mass blood collection at at the rally site, saying that it could put demonstrators at risk because some medical devices could be contaminated.

 

She spoke after Dr Weng Tojirakarn, a leader of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship (DAAD), said he would mobilise 500 medical workers, including doctors and nurses, to draw blood from red-shirt demonstrators.

 

The blood campaign is a move aimed at pressuring Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to dissolve the House of Representatives.

 

But many health authorities expressed serious concern as soon as the idea was unveiled.

 

Medical Council secretary general Dr Samphan Komrit said it was highly unlikely the reds would be able to mobilise 500 medical workers for the protest today. He said taking blood from people could be dangerous if it wasn't done by trained medical workers.

 

Deputy director of the Thai Red Cross Society's National Blood Centre, Commander Dr Ubonwan Jarunreungrit, said a blood puncture could cause paralysis if the needle was put in the wrong position.

 

"Or if the puncture is made on an artery, people will lose a lot of blood and they may suffer shock," she warned.

 

Thai Red Cross Aids Research Centre director Dr Praphan Panuphak disagreed with the red shirts' blood campaign. If protesters did not have adequate sleep, they would be exhausted after having blood drawn out, he said.

 

Public Health Minister Jurin Laksanawisit warned protesters not to use the same needle to draw out blood as they would be at risk from infectious diseases such as HIV/Aids and hepatitis.

 

He also said red shirts should avoid giving blood in sunlight as that could put them at risk of suffering a stroke.

 

Samphan, of the Medical Council, also disagreed with the red shirts' blood campaign. "I can't say that this is an abuse of the code of medical conduct or not, but it would be the first [such] case in history," he said.

 

Samphan said the council would discuss the issue at its next meeting if somebody filed a complaint about the move.

[Gaybutton]

I can only hope this blood nonsense won't change the meaning of LOS from "Land of Smiles" to "Land of Stupidity."

 

The following appears in THE NATION:

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Red-Shirt Leaders Pool Blood

 

Red-shirt leaders had their blood pulled out Tuesday morning in the campaign for protesters to pool their blood for pouring in front of the Government House.

 

Veera Musigapong was the first red-shirt leader to give his blood at 8:25 am.

 

He was followed by Jatuporn Promphan, and then Natthawut Saikua.

 

They were followed by Weng Tojitrakarn, Adisorn Piengket, and Karun Hosakul.

 

Their bloods were emptied from syringes into a bin, which was by half with a solution. The red-shirt leaders said the solution was chemical for preventing the blood from hardening.

 

Jatuporn said the pooled blood of the red-shirt people would be poured onto the ground in front of Government House before dusk.

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And this, from the BANGKOK POST:

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UDD Warns There Will be Blood

 

Published: 16/03/2010

 

The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship is threatening to splash the entrances to Government House with its supporters' blood.

 

Co-leader Natthawut Saikua said yesterday the UDD would today start drawing 1,000 litres of blood from around 100,000 red shirt demonstrators and splash it about the grounds of Government House if Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva insisted on clinging to power.

 

Each member of the red shirts would donate 10cc of blood, he said.

 

"If Mr Abhisit and his cabinet ministers want to enter Government House to work, they will have to walk on the people's blood," Mr Natthawut said in front of the 11th Infantry Regiment, where the red shirts were gathered in protest for much of yesterday.

 

The headquarters of the ruling Democrat Party and the prime minister's house would be the next targets to be splashed with blood if the UDD's demands were not met.

 

The Public Health Ministry has warned the protesters against the possible transmission of diseases. But UDD leader Weng Tojirakarn, a medical doctor, said the collection of 10cc of blood would not cause any harm to the protesters.

 

Medical staff normally take from 350 to 450cc of blood from a person at a time, he said.

 

He said the UDD was in the process of coordinating 500 medical staff and nurses to draw the blood.

 

Permanent secretary for health Paijit Warachit said the red shirts could go into shock, especially during hot weather, if they did not have enough rest prior to donating their blood.

 

Red shirt protesters shrugged off the warning. Supatra Kee-ngen, 53, from Chiang Rai, said she was willing to donate for the campaign.

 

"We have no gun, no arms, but what we all have is our blood. And we will use it to ask for true democracy," she said.

 

A 67-year-old retired nurse from Bangkok also pledged to to donate her blood to support the UDD's call for justice.

 

The woman said the red shirt protesters need not be afraid of giving such a small amount of blood.

[Gaybutton]

The following appears in the BANGKOK POST:

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UDD: Blood to be Spilled Before Evening

 

Published: 16/03/2010 at 11:50 AM

 

The anti-government United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) will splash the blood of its red-shirt supporters at the entrances to Government House between 3pm and 4pm instead of 6pm as previously announced, UDD prominent figure Nattawut Saikua said on Tuesday morning.

 

"The ritual has to start earlier because it could be a little dark at 6pm.

 

"We (the red-shirts) are ready to sacrifice our blood and lives to bring back democracy and bring down bureaucratic polity. We'll then know that the red-shirts’ blood is warm while Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's blood is cold," Mr Nattawut said.

 

He said the donors will curse the bureaucratic polity system without specifying any particular person during the ritual.

 

The ritual will be held so people would not see it as a violent or dirty event, he said.

 

"We want the government to know that we are protesting peacefully," he said.

 

UDD core member and opposition Puea Thai Party MP Jatuporn Prompan vowed that the group will take no longer than seven days to defeat the government.

 

On UDD leader Veera Musikapong's suggestion that all Puea Thai MPs should resign, Mr Jatuporn said he will discuss this issue with the party members.

 

"However, I don't think I'll step down first because my resignation would pressure other party members.

 

"The issue should be concluded within a day or two," he said.

 

He said if all Puea Thai MPs resigned a House meeting would be incomplete as there would be no opposition.

 

"I demand the government to dissolve the House of Representatives and call a fresh general election and let the people decide who will administer the country.

 

"If the Democrats genuinely win the election the reds shirt will not oppose. But if the Puea Thai are the winner the yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) and the Democrats should accept the result," Mr Jatuporn said.

 

People would not accuse Mr Abhisit of stealing the prime minister's post if his party won the election, he added.

 

UDD core member Veera said the group will continue to find peaceful ways to protest if the blood splashing plan did not work.

 

The group will continue resorting to civil disobedience to pressure the government, he said.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I wonder who conceived of this potentially dangerous to the health of thousands of people game.

[Gaybutton]

Rather than copy and past the BANGKOK POST article this time, here is the URL. Plenty of photos:

 

Protesters give blood to scatter at Govt House

 

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Et tu Chiang Mai?

 

Here's the latest from Chiang Mai, from THE NATION:

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Chiang Mai Hall to be Closed at 6 pm Following Threat of Bloody Protest

 

Chiang Mai - The Chiang Mai provincial administration will close the gate of the Chiang Mai Hall at 6 pm to prevent red-shirt protesters from coming inside to pour their pooled blood to protest the government.

 

Chiang Mai Governor Amornphan Nimanan said the hall would be closed from 6 pm to midnight.

 

Earlier the day, red-shirt leaders in Chiang Mai said they would collect blood from protesters and pour them inside the compound of the provincial hall in parallel with the blood pouring outside the Government House by the red-shirt protesters.

 

The Chiang Mai red-shirt leaders started collecting blood from supporters in front of the Grand Waroros Hotel since in the morning.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Those photos show how clueless these people are. The people who are taking blood are wearing gloves and masks, yet they know the blood is going to be splattered where people can be exposed to it.

[Gaybutton]

The following appears in THE NATION:

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Blood Ready to be Splashed

 

Published: 16/03/2010 at 04:41 PM

 

Blood collected from red-shirt donors is being carried in large jars and water bottles in a march to Government House, where it will be spilt near the entrance later today.

 

The donations were first displayed on the red-shirt stage. Leaders said they were able to collect 300,000 cc of blood.

 

They earlier planned to collect a million cubic centimetres of blood, but there were not enough volunteers.

 

Soldiers and police increased security around Government House ahead of the ritual and barbed wire has been placed around the gate to prevent instrusion by the red-shirts.

 

Fire trucks are also stationing around the compound to clean the area, which will be covered by blood this evening.

 

(300,000 cc is about 80 gallons)

[Guest RichLB]

At the risk of verifying what a no nothing I am, what exactly are the risks of dried blood to those who may step in/on it? I can see the risks of stepping in wet blood and the risks of non-professionals taking blood, but given that the blood will dry quickly on hot pavement, what are the risks that those more knowledgeable than I am are warning against?

[Gaybutton]

The following appears in the BANGKOK POST:

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Reds Spill Blood at Govt House

 

Published: 16/03/2010 at 06:12 PM

 

Red-shirt protesters splashed blood in front of the entrance to Government House late Tuesday afternoon, in a Brahman ritual aimed at toppling the government.

 

Leaders of the anti-government United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), Natthawuat Saikua, Jatuporn Prompan and Arisman Pongruangrong, and a group of red-shirt followers arrived at Government House about 4pm.

 

The UDD leaders negotiated with Metropolitan Police chief Wichai Sangprapai after authorities refused to allow them to enter the grounds.

 

After talks, 100 red-shirts led by opposition Puea Thai Party MP Jatuporn and a Brahman priest were allowed through.

 

The Hindu priest, who carried a Buddhist statue with him, performed a ritual before protesters outside the entrance poured the blood they had donated near the front gate.

 

Medical and Bangkok Metropolitan Administration personnel immediately cleansed the area and used chlorox to disinfect the blood stained road after the ritual was performed.

 

There was not trouble and the red-shirts later returned to the main protest venue at Phan Fa bridge.

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And this, also from the BANGKOK POST:

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Reds Complete Blood Ritual

 

Published: 16/03/2010 at 06:12 PM

 

The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship on Tuesday completed their ritual against the government by pouring blood taken from its supporters at all four gates of the Government House.

 

UDD leaders claimed the red shirts donated a total of 300,000cc of blood. Apart from the red shirts, about 60 MPs of the opposition Puea Thai Party also gave their blood for the ritual

 

The donation started from about 8.30am and ended about 3.30pm.

 

The red shirts then marched from Phan Fa bridge at about 4pm - with the blood in twelve 5-litre bottles, two large buckets, and 50 syringes - and arrived at the Government House shortly before 5pm for the ritual.

 

At 4.50pm, Jatuporn Promphan, a UDD leader, a man dressed in white as a Brahman, and another man holding a Buddha statue in his arms, walked to Gate No 2 where a religious rite was performed. The Brahman cited spells and incantations and poured an amount of blood in front of the gate.

 

After that the Brahman took an amount of blood from the ground to write some letters on the cement posts of the gate.

 

The ritual was closely watched by Pol Maj-Gen Wichai Sangprapai, the Metropolitan Police Division 1 commander. Only a small number of the red shirts and news reporters, many of whome foreigners, where allowed to witness the ritual while others were cordoned off by more than 2,000 policemen.

 

Apart from Gate No 2, the red shirts also poured blood at Gates Nos 1, 3 and 4 by Mr Jatuporn and UDD leaders Nathawut Saikua and Wiphuthalaeng Pattanaphumthai.

 

All went well during the ritual without violence because the police had talked to the protest leaders beforehand that the red shirts would be definitely not be allowed to intrude into the Government House or face a crackdown by police on standby fully equipped with anti-riot gear.

 

Fire engines, ambulances from Vajira, Police and King Mongkut hospitals and medical staff were put on standby in the Government House compound,

 

From the Government House, the red shirts returned to Phan Fa bridge, from which they proceeded to the Democrat Party headquarters on Setthasiri road for the same ritual.

 

At the Democrat Party head office, four companies of police under the command of Metropolitan Police Division 2 chief Pol Maj-Gen Saroj Promcharoen, one company of border patrol police, one company of provincial police from Samut Songkhram and one company from Chanthaburi were deployed for security. The police did not carry weapons.

 

About 50 plainclothes policemen were also in the area to take pictures and videotapes of the ritual for possible law-breaking incidents.

 

Metropolitan Police chief Pol Lt-Gen Santhan Chayanont inspected the scene ahead of the red shirts to ensure readiness.

 

Earlier, Mr Jatuporn announced that the red shirts would go the the house of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva in Sukhumvit Soi 31 tomorrow for a similar ritual.

[bkkguy]

Dramatic new development as reported in not The Nation:

 

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[Guest lvdkeyes]

The health risks come while the blood is being splattered.

[Guest voldemar]

I recently traveled to one of th Isaan area close to border with Cambodia and there is a real hunger over there. Locals have self-made guns which they use to kill snakes and other small animals which they eat. This is in the country which can collect three harvests of rice per year and which is the largest exporter of rice in the world.

I am not staying permanently in Thailand but I cannot accept it. The only country of similar potential as Thailand which has somewhat similar problem is Brasil. But Lula government in Brasil (though admittedly quite corrupted) was elected by efforts of Brasilian poor, represent their interests and doing a lot to alleviate their plight.

I,of course, understand, that most of the expats in Thailand came there for inexpensive sex and mostly care about themselves. Still lack of compassion to Thais poor strikes me. Do not you understand that Thai society is grossly unfair to millions of their fellow citizens who really suffer. Do not you recognize that these millions want to change their lives? Do not you accept the fact that the protest can be quit genuine

and stem from unbelievable unfairness and inequality? One thing when Thai elite invokes Thaksin every five minutes as a propaganda tool. Another thing when Western expats (some are quite educated and even Ph D) repeat this propaganda like brainless parrots...

[Gaybutton]

I,of course, understand, that most of the expats in Thailand came there for inexpensive sex and mostly care about themselves.

 

Still lack of compassion to Thais poor strikes me. Do not you understand that Thai society is grossly unfair to millions of their fellow citizens who really suffer.

I am always amused when the self righteous come along to lecture everyone else on how they should feel and what they should do while at the same time passing along their opinions as if they were facts while failing to tell us a thing about what they do here themselves.

 

Yes, many expats come here for the cheap sex, but many are also living here for a wide variety of other reasons and often the cheap sex has nothing to do with their reasons.

 

As for the lack of compassion for the Thai poor, what would you have us do about it? Start giving away our money to them? Pay their debts for them? Start taking responsibility for their lives? Most expats I know do what they can do through various charities. What else can they do? Many donate hundreds, even thousands of dollars. Many, both gay and straight, have taken in boyfriends or girlfriends and not only support them, but also support their families and help as best as they can.

 

I have several friends who have purchased new houses for the families. TravelerJim regularly sponsors boys and finances their entire college educations. He is not the only one who does things like that.

 

So don't come here and start handing us this lack of compassion nonsense and don't ask us to subscribe to the idea that the world, or at least the expats, owe the Thais a living and don't ask us to try to resolve their political troubles for them.

 

If the Thai government, in your opinion, lacks compassion for the country's poor, what do you think expats can do about it or even should try to do about it? We're not blind to what goes on in this country. We expats probably see a hell of a lot more than you can even imagine. That doesn't disqualify us from expressing our opinions on these message boards. I didn't know our opinions make us 'brainless parrots' unless our opinions are the same as yours.

 

The real bottom line is this is their country, not ours, and they're the ones who have to do something about it if they are dissatisfied with their lives, opportunities, and political troubles. As expats we can help as best as we can, and most do what they can afford to do. The very fact that expats live here is in itself a huge financial contribution. Other than that, I don't know what you would expect expats to do. And since by your own admission you don't live here, then you can't possibly know what expats living here permanently are actually doing.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

 

I,of course, understand, that most of the expats in Thailand came there for inexpensive sex and mostly care about themselves. Still lack of compassion to Thais poor strikes me.

How can you make such sweeping statements about people you don't know?

[Guest voldemar]

I am always amused when the self righteous come along to lecture everyone else on how they should feel and what they should do while at the same time passing along their opinions as if they were facts while failing to tell us a thing about what they do here themselves.

 

I think you quite deliberately misrepresent my viewpoint. I am not saying that expats are responsible for the situation in Thailand or that they should do anything about that.

What I am saying is that if you recognize the poverty and suffering of millions of Thai

you should admit their right to fight for better future. In your posts (and being fair)in many other posts I do not see even a shred of doubt that current events in Thailand

have other reasons or roots than "subversive" activities of Thaksin.

It is unfair and to some extent self-serviced view, in the sense that no doubt sexpats and sex tourists do exploit this poverty.

If you recognize the poverty, the suffering and unfairness, then you need to admit that Thaksin or no Thaksin, the fight will go on. The growing inequality between have and have nots in Thailand will make this fight more intense. Whether its last hurah (as you claim) of Thaksin or not is in some sense irrelevant. The political situation in Thailand will continue to deteriorate until steps are taken to resolve the problem of poverty .

[Gaybutton]

then you need to admit that Thaksin or no Thaksin, the fight will go on.

 

The political situation in Thailand will continue to deteriorate until steps are taken to resolve the problem of poverty .

I don't "need to admit" anything. Why? Because you say so? Pardon me. I forgot that the only acceptable point of view is your own.

 

I challenge you to show me one post that says, or even implies, that I don't think the Thais have a right to fight for their rights. That is absolutely absurd. Since you can't seem to figure out what I've been saying, I'll try to help you. I have no objection to Thais or anyone else fighting for their rights. I think the way they are going about it is ridiculous. I also think, especially based on the numbers that actually showed up for these demonstrations . . . you know, the ones you hoped I would be so wrong about just so you could gloat . . . that those demonstrating are not representative of the majority of the Thai people. The published poll results back up that opinion.

 

You seem to be a strong advocate for a system in Thailand in which it's share the wealth. In case you hadn't noticed, that brand of Communism failed.

 

Yes, I would love to see an end to poverty in Thailand. I would love to see an end to poverty throughout the entire world. But I don't advocate the methods by which you think it ought to be fought for and I don't see how returning Thaksin to power would help the impoverished even one bit. As long as he has nothing to lose and can continue to convince enough people that he is a victim, not a criminal, and he is also their ticket to a better life, then why would he stop trying, no matter how much it's pulling apart the country? To my mind, if he was truly so altruistically concerned about the welfare of Thailand, then he would have stopped trying to incite these things long ago.

 

If these people are convinced that the current government is illegal, then take it to court. They're not going to get what they want by trying to force the government out. They're not going to get what they want by pouring blood either.

 

So far they have accomplished nothing and as far as I can tell the whole thing has been nothing but bluster and nonsense.

[Guest voldemar]

1. I also think, especially based on the numbers that actually showed up for these demonstrations . . . you know, the ones you hoped I would be so wrong about just so you could gloat . . . that those demonstrating are not representative of the majority of the Thai people.

 

2.You seem to be a strong advocate for a system in Thailand in which it's share the wealth. In case you hadn't noticed, that brand of Communism failed.

 

3.Yes, I would love to see an end to poverty in Thailand. I would love to see an end to poverty throughout the entire world. But I don't advocate the methods by which you think it ought to be fought for and I don't see how returning Thaksin to power would help the impoverished even one bit.

 

4.If these people are convinced that the current government is illegal, then take it to court. .

 

5.So far they have accomplished nothing and as far as I can tell the whole thing has been nothing but bluster and nonsense.

1. Would you like to see majority of Thais demonstrating in BKK? You know that this is

logistically impossible. The numbers were fine: more than 200000 people.

 

2. How did you come to this conclusion? It is very difficult to have this discussion

because you hardly familiar with facts. E.g. Land reform was enacted in Thailand since 1975. It was brutally abused by Democrats which led to the resignation the last Democrat government ( I mean elected one) of Chuan Lekpai. Reform never assumed any sharing of wealth.Under Thaksin realization of this reform was drastically accelerated and millions of landless peasants got land. There was a significat reduction in poverty level in Thailand . There is official statistic of international organizations. I can post the data.

3. Return of Thaksin would definitely help. See 2

 

4. Well, this is a little bit too much even for me. To what courts? You mean Constitutional one, appointed by Junta which banned two parties, removed two PM, parliamentary speaker, based on TV cooking shows etc.

Are you serious?

5. Well, here you are correct. Did you follow this publications about grenade launches produced underground? I am afraid this is the next stage. And you know even " Dark side"

may not be far enough...

[Guest fountainhall]

The political situation in Thailand will continue to deteriorate until steps are taken to resolve the problem of poverty

On this, I agree with you. There is far too much inequality in wealth in this country. Yes, something should be done about it. And of course the poor have a right to fight for a better quality of life. But how is this to be achieved - and who will do it for them? Politicians? That's a joke! The sad fact is Thai politics is not just corrupt; it is hugely corrupt - and most politicians at national and local level are corrupt. (That was the basis of an excellent article in yesterday's Bangkok Post.)

 

But a more basic and sad issue, surely, is that the vast majority of people really do not care about corruption. They gladly accept cash handouts to vote for a corrupt politician (and i am sure this applies to a good number of red shirts - although, unfortunately, they gain only a few hundred Baht whilst wealthier 'friends' of candidates end up with lucrative contracts and land deals). Drivers gladly hand over a few hundred baht to police to save the bother of more formal action against them. Corruption now permeates all levels of society in a very big and very harmful way. I read of several red shirts saying they saw no problem in Thaksin stealing billions, because everyone is corrupt. So why target him?

 

In some people's eyes, the red shirts may have laudable aims. I suspect they and their leaders will probably end up winning the next election. Will that solve the problem? No, because amongst their leaders - and those who will jump ship to join them - will be a fair number of former politicians with very corrupt pasts. For them, it will be yet another ride on the gravy train.

 

Personally, I do not believe elections will achieve much for the poor. Two of the most ‘clean’ governments in the region – Hong Kong and Singapore – are a result of single-minded, almost dictatorial leaders. Hong Kong had millions of poor before the colonial government at a stroke created an Independent Corruption Commission. This had an extraordinary effect, and within a few years police chiefs, politicians, local leaders and many thousands were convicted of corruption. That one act helped set Hong Kong on the path to its extraordinary wealth. Admittedly this is still not shared by all, but in just a few years vast numbers were lifted out of poverty. Who will have the guts to put in place a similar Independent body with similarly sweeping powers here in Thailand?

 

So, Voldemar, why not give us your realistic, workable manifesto for reducing poverty in this country and puting an end to its endemic corruption?

[Gaybutton]

1. Would you like to see majority of Thais demonstrating in BKK?

I've already said my piece. I don't see much value in rehashing the same points I've already made. You have your opinion and I have mine.

[Gaybutton]

There have been few more blood splashing stories today, but the following story is the first I've seen since this whole thing began that at least is making some sense.

 

The following appears in the BANGKOK POST:

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Senators Want a General Debate

 

Published: 17/03/2010 at 03:46 PM

 

Sixty senators on Wednesday signed a motion seeking a general debate of the Senate to explore ways of solving the ongoing political conflict, Senate Speaker Prasopsuk Boondej said.

 

A resolution to take this action was reached at a Senate meeting attended by 66 senators.

 

Mr Prasopsuk and his deputies said after the meeting that senators wanted the Senate to hold a general debate under Section 161 of the consitution as soon as possible. Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva will be invited to attend the debate.

 

The Senate called for all sides in the conflict to exercise restraint, refrain from violence and solve problems through peaceful negotiations, he said.

 

Nikom Wairatpanich, the first deputy senate speaker, said the prime minister should call a joint meeting of the House of Representatives and the Senate under Section 179 of the constitution as soon as possible to solve the country's problems through parliamentary means.

[Guest voldemar]

So, Voldemar, why not give us your realistic, workable manifesto for reducing poverty in this country and puting an end to its endemic corruption?

Actually, I studied HK case in detail and you get it totally wrong. Independent Corruption Commission was successful because the fast economic progress and elimination of poverty was already under the way. In other words, elimination of poverty in HK was not the result of restriction of corruption. It was the other way around. I can give you references if you really interested in.

Corruption cannot be eliminated by creation of Commissions, by court decisions ( it usually results in political witch hunt as was the case in Thailand) and, yes, even by means of elections. The only way out is fast economic growth and raising living standards. That is how things were worked out in Japan, South Korea, Singapore and HK.

That is how eventually they will be worked out in Brasil and Thailand.

You are asking me about the receipt for solutions of Thai problems. This recipt is very well known and was repeated in dozens of different places. Thus, you are asking the wrong question. The right question is why things did not work out in Thailand so far?

In the nutshell the answer is simple: Thailand was not able to make a full transition from feudal to capitalist society. The main ingredient in this transition is the Land reform. Such reforms were implemented in both Japan and South Korea.

In Thailand revolutionary 1975 reform has never been implemented in full.

The key question is why?

I am actually planning to write an essay on it but I doubt that a message board would be the right place to publish it.

[Gaybutton]

I am actually planning to write an essay on it but I doubt that a message board would be the right place to publish it.

Don't forget to let us know where you do decide to publish it.

[Guest fountainhall]

Actually, I studied HK case in detail and you get it totally wrong. Independent Corruption Commission was successful because the fast economic progress and elimination of poverty was already under the way

Well this is all very interesting! I am glad you have studied the economic development of Hong Kong. You clearly seem to know more about it than I, who just happened to live there for more than 20 years. Frankly, I do not think you will find many who agree with your assumption that Hong Kong’s development in 1974 (when the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) was established) was much different from Thailand in 2010. Indeed, many will argue that it was less developed. You seem to forget the effects of Mao’s Cultural Revolution on Hong Kong and the many years it took to shake these off. The real development and improvement of living standards of the majority of the population did not start until the second half of the 1970s prior to really taking off during the following decade.

 

Let me quote from a thesis by Tony Kwok Man-wai of the University of Hong Kong and a former Deputy Commissioner and Head of Operations of the ICAC.

 

It (the ICAC) was established in 1974 at the time when corruption was widespread, and Hong Kong was probably one of the most corrupt cities in the world. Corruption was a way of life and existed “from womb to tomb”. There was at that time a particularly close “business” association between law enforcement agencies and organized crime syndicates. Nearly all types of organized crimes, vice, gambling and drugs were protected. As a taxi-driver, you could even buy a monthly label stuck on your taxi and it would guarantee you from any traffic prosecution. Such was the scale of open corruption in Hong Kong.

 

When ICAC was set up in 1974, very few people in Hong Kong believed that it would be successful. They called that “Mission Impossible”. Within three years, the ICAC smashed all corruption syndicates in the Government and prosecuted 247 government officials, including 143 police officers

 

No doubt the fight against corruption in Hong Kong is a success story and has had wide ramifications to the change of culture in Hong Kong. In the Year 2000 Millennium public opinion survey in Hong Kong, the establishment of the ICAC was voted the 6th most important event in the 150 years of history in Hong Kong

In discussing how corruption is to be tackled, Mr. Kwok asks a number of questions, all of which related to the Hong Kong experience –

 

1. PoliticalEnvironment

• Is there adequate political will to fight corruption?

• Is there any political interference in investigating corruption?

• Is the political system defective? Are there any political elections? Is there any corruption in the election process?

• Is there support from the Legislature in fighting corruption?

• Is there adequate accountability and transparency in the government?

 

2. EconomicEnvironment

• Is the poverty of the state related to corruption?

• Are the salaries of the civil servants adequate and comparable with the business sector?

• Is the Government providing sufficient funding in its budget for fighting corruption?

It is clear from Kwok's thesis that a 'defective political system' and the 'poverty of the state' are both a result of and contribute to the forces of corruption.

 

Private sector corruption can cause as much damage to society, if not more so than public sector corruption. Serious corruption in financial institutions can cause market instability; corruption in the construction sector can result in dangerous structures. Effective enforcement against private sector corruption can be seen as a safeguard for foreign investment and ensures Hong Kong maintains a level playing field in its business environment.

Prior to the ICAC, that level playing field did not exist. It was only after its creation that Hong Kong started to develop as a major international centre of business and commerce, as a result of which the mass of the population began to enjoy a rapidly rising standard of living. Clear corruption from Thailand in a similar manner, and economic development and the improvement in living standards of far more in the country stand a far better chance of taking off.

 

Corruption cannot be eliminated by creation of Commissions

Oh really!

 

You are asking me about the receipt for solutions of Thai problems. This recipt is very well known and was repeated in dozens of different places. Thus, you are asking the wrong question. The right question is why things did not work out in Thailand so far?

Wrong again. My question was very simple. It was directed at you - not at others - and you do not answer it. Instead you pose another question, thus avoiding the issue!

 

My apologies to those who are bored rigid by the above. But voldemar is plain wrong, and in this particular case I am not going to let him get away with his often wide-of-the mark and over-simplified analyses.

[Guest fountainhall]

One further apology re the above. I was timed out on the edit which I was trying to make. My statement -

 

It is a clear basis of Kwok's thesis that in Hong Kong's case, the answer to these questions (especially those I have marked in italics) was a resounding 'No'.

is inaccurate as it must be fairly obvious that the answers to some would be 'Yes'. I had wanted to change it to -

 

It is clear from Kwok's thesis that a 'defective political system' and the 'poverty of the state' are both a result of and contribute to the forces of corruption.

[Guest voldemar]

Frankly, I do not think you will find many who agree with your assumption that Hong Kong’s development in 1974 (when the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) was established) was much different from Thailand in 2010. Indeed, many will argue that it was less developed. You seem to forget the effects of Mao’s Cultural Revolution on Hong Kong and the many years it took to shake these off. The real development and improvement of living standards of the majority of the population did not start until the second half of the 1970s prior to really taking off during the following decade.

 

 

You know, these questions are not decided by majority of votes. There is a standard measure of living standards: GDP/per capita.

In HK in 1960 it was 3021 USD, in 1970 5946 USD. In Thailand in 2009 it is 3946 USD.

The data regarding Thailand is taken from Wikipedia which compares three different sources. The Thailand is ranked 91. One should take into account that US dollar of 1970 was worth much more than US dollar of 2009. Thus, Thailand should be compared with HK in sixties

when, in fact, fast economic growth just started in HK. I stated obvious:Corruption cannot be effectively fought in society with high poverty level. Hong Kong example just confirms it. There are anticorruption commissions in places like Zimbabwe and their efficiency can and should be compared with corresponding commission created by Thai junta.

Both were occupied by the same task:political witch hunt.

How possibly can I start explaining you a solution (that was your original question)

if you do not understand the problem?

You stated that you lived in HK for 20 years. How many years do you live in Thailand?

You still have no clue...