What is a House of Prostitution

[Guest RichLB]

In another thread a poster mentioned that there was a never enforced Thai law that prohibits people from congregating in any house of prostitution. Frankly, I know of no such places in Pattaya and suspect that if they exist they must have a very small customer base. It doesn't seem to me that bars meet the definition. If I meet an entertainer in a business establishment and reimburse the business for their loss of services when I wish to spend private time with their employee, that doesn't seem to meet the definition of a house of prostitution, to me. What that employee and I do during this interval is not the business of the entertainment establishment - it is a private matter between me and the other person. The assumption that all such exits are for the purposes of sex is an over generalization. In my case, I have taken a guy from a gogo bar simply because I wanted his company while shopping or having dinner - no sex involved. So, the question is, in Thailand, what constitutes a house of prostitution?

[Guest rhodochrosite]

"prostitution establishment" means a place established for prostitution or in which the prostitution is allowed, and shall include a place used for soliciting or procuring another person for prostitution;........AS PER THE LAW.

[Guest Astrrro]

I would think that perhaps the soapies where you chosse a girl from the fishbowl would come close.

 

There's also a straight establishment that caters to kink and the rule is you must take two girls and one pays 3600 baht upfront. They actually have a yellow line down the middle of the bar and the girls on one side do anal. Athough there is a "bar" people are discouraged from drinking there and it's basicly a house of prostitution.

[Guest gwm4sian]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

[Guest Soi10Tom]

I don't know anyone that has taken a boy to one of the short time room above a bar to chat, play cards, watch a movie, or to go shopping on Amazon. But I'm sure that some poor limp dicked guy did at some point in time during the last century. So, I would conclude that many bars are houses of prostitution.

 

While far more reputable bars that are far less convenient require you to take the boy some where else to find a short time room, or you just wanted his company while shopping or having dinner - no sex involved would be bars with polite companionship for rent not houses of prostitution.

[Guest RichLB]

While far more reputable bars that are far less convenient require you to take the boy some where else to find a short time room, or you just wanted his company while shopping or having dinner - no sex involved would be bars with polite companionship for rent not houses of prostitution.

The above makes sense to me, but when the law gets in the business of presuming motive it gets pretty cloudy. Maybe that's why this law remains unenforced. Interestingly, back during the era when the police were cracking down on bars that maintained short time rooms, the charge was not that it made them houses of prostitution but instead they were charged for maintaining a hotel without the proper lisence. And, back in my more naive days, I'd suggested to a prominent bar owner that he post "suggested" tip amounts in the bathroom so hapless tourists would have some idea what the guys expected. It was explained to me that he could not do that because the police would rightly interpret that as him maintaining a house of prostitution. I was also told that this was the reason the bars do not give the boys condoms (not quite sure how Take Care gets away with giving them out in the bars, though). Given all this confusion, I still don't know how Thailand interprets a house of prostitution.

[bkkguy]

So, the question is, in Thailand, what constitutes a house of prostitution?

 

There is a large one in Bangkok, so large it even has an "upper" and a "lower" house - Thais in the know refer to it as ศูนย์การค้า (sunkarnkha), the occupants - รัฐบาล (rathaban) - usually work there a few years then move on when they have made enough Baht for themselves!

 

bkkguy

[Bob]

In another thread a poster mentioned that there was a never enforced Thai law that prohibits people from congregating in any house of prostitution. Frankly, I know of no such places in Pattaya and suspect that if they exist they must have a very small customer base............................................................ So, the question is, in Thailand, what constitutes a house of prostitution?

 

While I don't know what you see or know about the boy bars within the country of Thailand, they'd fit any definition of a "house of prostitution" I could come up with. They hire people who will go off (or, sometimes, up) to have sex with customers and the house gets a fee for making the introduction. And the fact that there's one or more customers who want nothing more than a little shopping or non-sexual companionship with one or more of the employees doesn't alter what everybody knows that 99% of the customers are looking for (and getting).

 

I'm hoping your post was made tongue-in-cheek but, if not, we're living on two different planets.

[Guest RichLB]

I'm hoping your post was made tongue-in-cheek but, if not, we're living on two different planets.

Well, the point I was hoping to illustrate is the vagaries of the term "House of Prostitution." If the term is stretched to include any business in which employees are willing to be released from work (for a fee to the employer) it seems that would include most places in Pattaya - including restaurants, grocery stores, and just about any other place. I have trouble seeing how an establishment can be legally held responsible for what their employees elect to do when not working.

[Gaybutton]

I have trouble seeing how an establishment can be legally held responsible for what their employees elect to do when not working.

I agree with what you have been saying, but the police are holding bars responsible for what their employees do when they're not working. Remember that they are penalizing bars and bar owners if any of their employees test positive for drugs.

 

I don't know if it's legal in Thailand for the police to do that or if it would stand up in Thai courts, but there it is.

[Bob]

I understand the point about what an employee truly does on his own time (i.e., if he's smoking dope on his own time, it's a bit difficult to see how that alone means the employer ought to suffer for that).

 

But the boy bars and girl bars (and, I suppose "in-between" bars) are there to sell sexual services to customers. If that ain't prostitution, I don't know what it is (by the way, I'm not in any manner suggesting that it's bad or immoral).

[Guest RichLB]

But the boy bars and girl bars (and, I suppose "in-between" bars) are there to sell sexual services to customers. If that ain't prostitution, I don't know what it is (by the way, I'm not in any manner suggesting that it's bad or immoral).

There's no doubt most of the guys and girls who work the bars are looking to rent out their bodies, but since the bar, itself, is not "selling" those services I don't see how they can be defined (as per the law previously posted saying it is illegal "to congregate in a house of prostitution") as such a place. I also wonder what percentage of bar customers are actually looking to purchase sexual services. From my experience, most visitors to those bars are there to ogle the guys or girls, not actually off them - much to the chagrin of the dancers.

[Bob]

You might be attempting to be a bit technical with the language, Rich, but it's really difficult for me to understand you don't view the bars' participation as being involved with prostitution. Any court in the west would consider these places houses of prostitution (and, again, by calling them that I'm not expressing any personal disapproval).

[Guest]

One could view gogo bars as having no more to do with prostitution than the local disco.

 

People arrive alone & may leave with a partner. What happens afterwards is between the people involved & is of no interest to the business premises where they met.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with prostitution.

If we must have "Houses of Parliament", why not a "House of Prostitution"?

The latter would probably do less damage to society.

[Gaybutton]

Any court in the west would consider these places houses of prostitution

Do I actually have to say, "You ain't in the west"?

 

While it is obvious that the vast majority of people take boys off for sex, to me that's the very reason why, on a technical level, the bar is not a house of prostitution - because you're taking the boy off. To me, if it's a house of prostitution, that means the sex is taking place in the house, not elsewhere. So, on a strictly technical level, I would consider a bar to be a house of prostitution if there are short time rooms and they are used for sex. If not, then I would not consider it to be a house of prostitution.

 

"You were both wrong! And you were both right."

- Yul Brynner, 'Taras Bulba'

[Bob]

Rather obvious that I'm not in sync at all with how many consider what the boy/girl bars really are.

 

If the bar (the house) wasn't being paid for providing the employee, I could almost see the technical argument that these places aren't houses of prostitution. But they do extract a fee for taking the employee off and everybody (except for a few, apparently) knows exactly what type of services are being facilitated and purchased.

[Up2u]

Rather obvious that I'm not in sync at all with how many consider what the boy/girl bars really are.

 

If the bar (the house) wasn't being paid for providing the employee, I could almost see the technical argument that these places aren't houses of prostitution. But they do extract a fee for taking the employee off and everybody (except for a few, apparently) knows exactly what type of services are being facilitated and purchased.

 

Absolutely true, and that is why these bars are required to make contributions to "police charities".

[Guest RichLB]

I don't have any idea how rigidly Thai law is applied and agree with Bob that clearly bars are aiding and abetting prostitution. But the law prohibiting congregating in a House of Prostitution doesn't say that. So, while the bar itself may be at risk for abetting prostitution, if it is not formally a "house of prostitution" I don't think any customers are in any jeopardy - in the odd event that this law is ever enforced.

[Guest fountainhall]

But they do extract a fee for taking the employee off and everybody (except for a few, apparently) knows exactly what type of services are being facilitated and purchased.

I would encourage everyone to read a newly published book Bangkok Found by the excellent award-winning author, Alex Kerr. Alex has lived in Bangkok for the last 13 years and was a regular visitor for 20 years before then. Apart from providing so many interesting insights into the city which I would never have discovered in dozens of years, no book in my experience better explains the contradictions in Thais and Thai society.

 

Early on, he writes -

 

Bangkok benefits from its relative disregard for rules and . . . 'the culture of negotiation'

- adding that compromise is vastly preferred to the letter of the law. Later, having first illustrated the strict nature of Thai society, the beliefs instilled into children and "the strong streak of puritanism running through modern Thai society", he goes on to highlight the seeming contradiction of Bangkok being a much more liberal city in terms of nightlife than any other in Asia. He writes about his earlier theme of -

 

the 'culture of negotiation' that tends not to stick to the letter of the law, (and) allows all sorts of venues to exist that might have a harder time in a stricter society . . . Prostitution continues to thrive, partly due to poverty, of course, and partly due to the fact that Thais don't take it as seriously as Westerners do. They see it (much as the Japanese) as a male biological urge and they don't much concern themselves about it, so long as it keeps a low profile. Prostitution is a loaded issue that each culture approaches with its own bias. The Thai and Japanese bias is about being seen doing it. In the West and the Muslim world, moral imperatives derived from Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions, judge it wrong from the start. So it can strike visitors to Thailand in a very conflicted way.

In trying to understand Thais and Thai culture, it is vitally important to accept, as GB points out, that Thailand has very different values from western countries. This includes many seemingly conflicting attitudes, especially how to behave and interact in society, and to letter of the law - at least in certain instances.

 

Bangkok Found by Alex Kerr is published by River Books and is a companion volume to Lost Japan which won him Japan's highest literary award, the only foreigner ever to have been so recognised. It's available from Asia Books, I believe.

[Gaybutton]

In trying to understand Thais and Thai culture, it is vitally important to accept, as GB points out, that Thailand has very different values from western countries. This includes many attitudes, especially the to letter of the law - at least in certain instances.

That appears to be an excellent book, well worth reading. I'm going to read it.

 

In my opinion, one of the first things people need to do is to learn to stop trying to compare Thailand with the way things work in their home countries. Trying to apply western ideas and values to the way things work in Thailand simply does not work. Sometimes I see people object when people write TIT, meaning This is Thailand. But TIT does have validity.

 

When it comes to prostitution, many westerners see prostitution as something degrading and something to be looked down upon as immoral. I believe most Thais see it simply as a way of making good money, especially when it's either that or the rice farm.

[Guest RichLB]

 

When it comes to prostitution, many westerners see prostitution as something degrading and something to be looked down upon as immoral. I believe most Thais see it simply as a way of making good money, especially when it's either that or the rice farm.

Well, for sure prostitution isn't seen the same way here in Thailand as it is in the West - but I don't think it's quite as benign as that. My impression is that Thais see it as not a good thing, but they don't put any moral component on it. Making a terrible analogy, it could be like having a traffic accident - not a good thing, but not immoral.

 

Given that, though, it gets confusing. I've noticed that my working boy Thai friends take great pains to hide their "profession" from their families. However, if they manage to snag a lucrative farang, they take pride in their accomplishment and delight in showing off their prize to family and friends. As you say, TIT and I doubt I'll ever completely understand it.

[Guest gwm4sian]

"prostitution establishment" means a place established for prostitution or in which the prostitution is allowed, and shall include a place used for soliciting or procuring another person for prostitution;........AS PER THE LAW.

 

Actually, I don't think you are quoting the law (at least the PROSTITUTION PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION ACT B.E. 2539 (1996)) correctly.

 

The official translation reads :

[Guest RichLB]

Thank you for providing those citations. As I interpret them, I agree with you that gogo bars, host bars, and massage parlors fit the definition.

[bkkguy]

The official translation reads :" ... a place used for soliciting or procuring another person for prostitution"

 

I am sure every bar owner worth his salt could stand with his hand on his heart and claim the he never procures for, and his staff never solicit for, prostitution - indeed I have personally heard many of them claim this with a straight face!

 

bkkguy

[Guest fountainhall]

I’d like to add one more rather lengthy quote from Alex Kerr’s Bangkok Found, as I believe its outline of the changing nightlife scene in Bangkok and evidence of why go-go bars and their like are living on borrowed time, will open up other interesting areas for discussion. I have edited out a few sentences to reduce the length and hope I have still maintained the overall sense.

 

I have what I call the ‘Weimar Repubic’ theory of Bangkok. As dramatized in the movie Cabaret, there was a brief moment of sinful freedom in Berlin during the Weimar Republic (1919 – 1933). It was the era of Kurt Weill’s bittersweet music and Christopher Isherwood’s novels and stories. By the mid-1930s the Nazis stamped it out, and eventually all that remained was a legend of ‘Berlin in the 20s’. Those who experienced it spent the rest of their lives telling others of the wild days that were now gone forever.

 

In time, the more outrageous forms that prostitution takes in Bangkok (sex shows, go-go bars with half naked boys or girls with numbers on their panties gyrating on tables) will disappear. For those things, Bangkok stands far out on the scale of what most cities in the world see as acceptable. I don’t believe it will last. Slowly but surely we are seeing a clampdown, and it’s a matter of time before the ‘sinful’ Bangkok we see today fades into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did . . .

 

This doesn’t mean that commercial sex will disappear . . . it does mean that we’re seeing a steady shift in the balance between prostitution and non-commercial venues. . . Meanwhile there’s a new open sexuality among the youth, which also alarms conservative elements in government and society. Back in the 80s and 90s, Rome Club on Silom Soi 4 was one of the few places where young urban professionals hung out. Since then nightlife has exploded into a wide range of venues across town. Youngsters dance the night away at huge discos at RCA or the clubs in the Ratchada area; gays go to Silom Soi 2 or to dozens of venues clustered in entertainment districts around the city . . . Sophisticated venues like Bed Supperclub or the fancy nightclubs on Soi Thonglor attract a well-heeled clientele.

 

As late as the mid-90s, boys and girls rarely held hand in public. Handholding was mostly a boy-boy or girl-girl thing. Outside their homes, people shunned physical contact in general. Now this is all changing, and dance in the discos has a lot to do with it. Politicians and bureaucrats therefore see dance as dangerous and have done their best to restrict it, by granting few licenses, tightening the zoning for entertainment districts, and requiring clubs to close earlier and earlier. Bangkok is already far more restrictive than Singapore or Tokyo when it comes to officially mandated closing times and permitted age limits for entry. Of course, this being Bangkok, the restrictions have plenty of holes in them. Somehow, certain clubs manage to evade the rules and stay open till morning.

Alex Kerr goes on to give other examples, along with the reasons he sees for the changing nightlife scene, most of them cultural and historical. But I’ll leave it to readers to purchase the book to find out more.