JAPAN; Tokyo - Shibuya ni-chome

[pong]

In the english newspaper Bangkokpost of sun 14/2 there was (in the supllement) a one page article about the gay scene in this area of Tokyo (that means the 2nd sub-district of Shibuya, a major commuter train station on the ringline Yamanote). Major trend was its slow decline, which was said to be caused by internet dating sites. Nevertheless there were some interesting items:

-dozens and dozens of very small, if not tiny, bars aiming at a very specialised group, like bearded countrymen or pot-bellied salarymen over 55, or seniors wanting to meet juniors, or those in schooluniform, or cross-dressers, etc.

-a major hotel (buy ticket for 13 hour stay for 2600Yen=950 THB), which is mainly aimed at cruising, leave roomdoor open, like in sauna cubicles. Strictly NO chewing-gum allowed!

As I understand from other fora the BKKpost does not allow links to it or will threaten you if they discover if you do that.

I have been to Japan-long time ago. I always thought many of these places ban white foreigners (the master will stand with arms crossed at the door signing this to you), but does anyone happen to know a little more about this scene? What about other major cities like Osaka?

[Gaybutton]

As I understand from other fora the BKKpost does not allow links to it or will threaten you if they discover if you do that.

I've never heard of that, but if you feel uncomfortable about posting a link to the article, you can copy and paste the article here but you must make sure to attribute the article to its source.

[Guest fountainhall]

I always thought many of these places ban white foreigners (the master will stand with arms crossed at the door signing this to you), but does anyone happen to know a little more about this scene? What about other major cities like Osaka?

I can only speak for Tokyo where I was based for 2 years and still visit 2 or 3 times each year. I did not see the Bangkok Post article but I suspect it was talking about Shinjuku station rather than Shibuya (although both are on the Yamanote circle line). Shinjuku ni-chome (2nd district) is the gay centre of the city. It boasts around 400 bars, a few saunas, several sex shops and goodness knows what else.

 

The thing every visitor must understand about the gay scene in Japan is that it is essentially for Japanese. Foreigners are sometimes welcome; sometimes not. Indeed, it can be very confusing for foreigners, partly because it is so difficult to find these places, partly because bars, as pong suggests, cater to different types, and mostly because everything is so small and packed into a very small area. It is not unusual for an extremely small, narrow 3-storey building to house 7 - 10 bars, each with just enough room for a bar counter with perhaps 10 seats around it. That's all! For the writer of the article to suggest that the small size of the bars is indicative of a fall-off in business is, frankly, rubbish. This is always how Japanese bars have been organised.

 

But the gay scene is also incredibly organised. Each year, some organisation publishes a gay directory called, I think, The Pink Guide. It lists almost every establishment in the city - including the second largest gay area around Ueno station and others in Shibuya. The Guide has a number of symbols, and each bar is accorded a series of symbols. This tells not just basic things like location, phone number, nearest subway station etc., but exactly what type of guys the bar appeals to. So if you are a young, hairy Japanese top looking for a middle-aged smooth Japanese bottom, the Guide tells you where to go. Unfortunately for us gaijin, it is all in Japanese, and I know of no translated version.

 

Not all establishments will say 'no' to foreigners - and I have certainly never heard of a mamasan blocking a door with arms folded! The Japanese are far too subtle for that. If it is a Japanese only bar, there may be a note on the door. If not, once inside you will soon realise that this is not a bar for you. On the other hand, when you get used to the conventions and speak even a little Japanese, you may be warmly welcomed. As the mamasan pours your drink, she will ask if you are top or bottom. She may then ask you to switch seats. Though you may not know it, she is actually putting you next to someone she knows is the opposite of you - and therefore trying to match guys up for a happy evening later on.

 

There are thousands of 'love' hotels in Tokyo, short-time hotels decorated in every design style imaginable and arranged so that the receptionist and staff will never see you. These, however, are for couples to do what they please, and generally cater to straight couples who have nowhere else to be alone together. I know of no major hotel designed for gay cruising. From your description, I am certain this must be the saunas. In each, you take off your shoes and put them in a locker (for 10 Yen), put your money in a machine to purchase your entrance ticket (around 2,500 Yen), take the key and ticket to the receptionist who will exchange it for a locker key bearing the same number and a small bag containing a gown, a small and a large towel. After changing, you then go to the open washing area which, in addition to the usual sit down showers, will have large baths at various temperatures - from almost freezing to almost unbearably hot. Attached will be a cruising area with showers, steam room, rain shower room, sauna etc. where guys cruise around wearing either nothing or only the skimpy small towels. On other levels there will be large darkened rooms where in theory anything goes, but usually guys will pair off in couples.

 

All the above is not to say some establishments do not welcome foreigners. Shinjuku has several bars where Japanese who like westerners will congregate. GB, Kinsmen and the cutely named Arty Farty will have many foreigner most nights of the week. The 24 Sauna chain with branches in Asakusa, Ueno and Shinjuku will usually have a few foreigners (especially the one in Shinjuku which seems to be closer to a few universities). Way back in the mid-1980's, many Japanese and westerners flocked to saunas where, in addition to some hot fun, it was possible to stay the night. But a ban on foreigners was introduced some years later because, in typical short-sighted Japanese fashion, it was assumed that HIV was a foreign illness and by banning foreigners Japan would be kept pure! Tho' this was obviously not going to work, many saunas do still adopt a no foreigner policy.

 

If you really want to know more about Tokyo, get a copy of Time Out Tokyo in the travel section of Asia Books. It has a small but very interesting gay and lesbian section. There are also many websites - including http://jguyusguy.org/ - which give information about what's going on and have message boards to help you meet like-minded Japanese when you visit.

 

Another point to note is that the gay scene is always quite fluid. Bars will open up and then after a year or two either close or change their 'themes'. The best advice is to stick to the dozen or so which are very much open to westerners, get to know a Japanese guy, and then start exploring other bars and establishments with him.

 

Lastly, re the Bangkok Post article, it may well be that business has been affected by the internet, especially mid-week. But then most Japanese bars and saunas only really come alive at the week-ends. On my last visit 6 months ago, I wandered through Shinjuku ni-chome on a Saturday evening, and it was so busy that bars were overflowing on to the streets.

[Guest]

I do agree. Shinjuku Ni Chome is where the gay scene is to be found, definitely not Shibuya.

 

The "hotel" where you pay 2600 sounds very much like the 24 Kaikan, which is my favourite sauna. They like to describe it as a hotel in some of their English language material.

Well worth a visit.

If you don't score at the sauna, there's always the "King of College" rent bar.

[Guest fountainhall]

The "hotel" where you pay 2600 sounds very much like the 24 Kaikan, which is my favourite sauna

I agree. The 24 Kaikan in Ueno is equally worth a visit and not difficult to find. It is rather similar in layout to the one in Shinjuku ni-chome, attracts a rather more working class crowd and salarymen stopping in for a couple of hours before getting trains home from the busy Ueno station.

[MrBill]

 

If you don't score at the sauna, there's always the "King of College" rent bar.

Speaking of King of College... As I look through Gay Japanese web sites there seems to be several Host (AKA rent boy) bars in ni-chome. All are, of course, only in Japanese and Google/Bing translations suck. Does anyone know if these host bars, such as Tokyo Kids, Alauada, or Danshi Gakuen, welcome foreigners? Also, does anyone know the meaning of the terms bakkutachi and Bakkuuke? I have deduced that tachi tangle is top and uke tangle is bottom, I think.

[KhorTose]

does anyone know the meaning of the terms bakkutachi and Bakkuuke? I have deduced that tachi tangle is top and uke tangle is bottom, I think.

If you got it backwards you will get it backwards.

[Guest fountainhall]

Bakku in Japanese means basically "back". So in gay slang, bakkutachi is someone who is a top and bakkuuke is a bottom. Someone who describes himself as "riba" (ree-ba) is versatile. I am not sure about the "tangle" phrases, but Japanese often describe themselves as being more top/dominant or more bottom/passive when having sex but when penetration is not involved (Jovianmoon or a447a should be able to confirm if this is the meaning or not). As I'm sure you've noticed, if you look at the website for Tokyo Kids, the descriptions against each of the boys has four parts -

 

Top (Anal Sex)

Bottom (Anal Sex)

Top

Bottom 

 

- with OK or NO against each (along with penis size! The Japanese are just soooo efficient!). And remember always to insist on sēfutī sekkusu (セーフティーセックス) = safe sex!

 

I have walked past several host bars but never been inside. (I stop at '24' and can never get away  ). I notice that Tokyo Kids has an English website with very detailed descriptions of their various services - and that normally means they expect the occasional foreigner customer. You can either phone to check, or just go into the bar and the mamasan will soon make it clear to you that you are welcome or not. If you are welcome and decide you want to go with one of the boys, make 100% sure with the mamasan that he'll do exactly what you want.  And don't be upset if you are not. That's just the bar policy - like many in Japan.

 

http://tokyokids.jp/e/system.html

 

 

 

Mods - is there any chance of changing the title of this thread to Japan: Tokyo - Shinjuku Ni-Chome as the OP made an error. Shibuya is a totally different part of Tokyo and Shibuya Ni-Chome has no gay establisments as far as I am aware. 

[KhorTose]

Went on the Tokyo Kids site.  Some one tell me why anyone comes to Thailand for sex.  Sadly, it is probably the difference in price. 

[Guest fountainhall]

I reckon a lot of gay guys don't bother with Japan for a number of reasons, the most obvious being difficulty of getting around the main cities - especially the huge conurbation that is Tokyo, assumed language problems and, as you suggested, cost.

 

Yet as I wrote in a blog post almost a year ago, getting around is not really that difficult once you have mastered the Japan Raiway (JR) and subway systems. In fact, it's a lot easier than many cities I have visited! As for language, you can be in Tokyo without speaking a word of Japanese and still get on quite well. As for cost, here again it is not as expensive as many assume - the more so since the US$ has risen 21% against the ¥ in recent months. And indications are that the ¥ will continue to fall over the next few months. Look around the Shinjuku area and you will find small hotels for less than US$100 per night. Eat Japanese-style and your meals will not cost much.

 

The boys on that website are all gorgeously cute, as I think are most that work in the host bars. Sex there is a bit more pragmatic and business-like than in Thailand, though. You will have noted the prices - starting around ¥12,000 for one hour (no need to tip). That's around Bt. 3,750. But that is before you visit the bar and buy a drink, and it assumes you are with the boy for exactly one hour. Want an extra half hour. Add on Bt. 1,250! Note also when the clock starts and stops - "After making appointment, we start counting the time when the boy enters the room."

 

Offing a host bar boy may well present a problem if you do not speak a little Japanese because few of these boys will speak any English. But why spend a lot of cash on boys in those bars? Several of the 400 or so gay bars in the Ni-chome district welcome foreigners and there you will find Japanese who want to meet you! Or go to '24 Kaikan' the lovely sauna very close to the host boy bars. Sure, there is no guarantee of success for most Japanese are there to meet other Japanese. But much depends on the time of day and the day of the week. I am neither young nor in great physical condition, but I have usually met some great guys there. And if nothing sexual happens, at least you can see some gorgeous bodies walking around naked in the sauna, bath and steam areas. 

 

Alternatively, arrange to meet someone from the gay social networking sites. I have not found gay romeo very good for Japan. But gaydar has a lot of Tokyo entries, and I have already been chatting for some days to a cute student who wants to spend a few days with me when I am there in May! 

 

http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/7804-tokyo-as-a-potential-stopover-blog/

[Guest jomtien]

Mods - is there any chance of changing the title of this thread to Japan: Tokyo - Shinjuku Ni-Chome as the OP made an error. Shibuya is a totally different part of Tokyo and Shibuya Ni-Chome has no gay establisments as far as I am aware. 

 

I would never change the title of a thread without a request from the poster who made it.  Even then I'm not sure I could, but I would gladly try.

[Guest fountainhall]

Hopefully pong will read the latest posts. The concern obviously is that someone giving this thread a quick glance may get the impression that Shibuya Ni-Chome is packed with gay bars, when there are, I believe, none!

[Guest]

Does anyone know if these host bars, such as Tokyo Kids, Alauada, or Danshi Gakuen, welcome foreigners?

Tokyo Kids welcomes foreigners, as does Get-Wave. They got a mention in a previous thread. http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/7804-tokyo-as-a-potential-stopover-blog/?hl=tokyo

 

The bars take some finding.

Tokyo Kids has 2 locations. The main bar is at street level. One of their websites shows an incorrect location, but go to:35.690426,139.707722. This one is at ground level, with as sign.

http://kids-jp.com/tk2/access.php

 

Get-Wave location is something like 35.69052,139.708226, about 3 or 4 floors up. So look for the sign high on the wall. http://www.get-wave.com/tokyo/system.html

 

In both cases, the staff really knew how to look after a customer. They were exceptional.

The guys I saw also look slightly more mature than you might think from the website, which is fine.

 

Considering the prices, this is the sort of place to go for a rare & very expensive treat. Unless of course your bank balance resembles that of Carlos Slim, in which case, why not take some long holidays here?

 

[Guest fountainhall]

z, was there any hesitation on the part of the boys as a result of being with a foreigner? Is it as relaxed as being with a Thai can be?

[Guest]

z, was there any hesitation on the part of the boys as a result of being with a foreigner? Is it as relaxed as being with a Thai can be?

I didn't detect any hesitation. One in particular seemed overjoyed @ getting an off. Either he was a very good actor, or had a serious short term cash flow issue.

 

Both guys were quite a lot better to be with than your average Thai, which is saying something as Thai guys know how to treat a customer too.

 

One point -the TK was by far the nicer of the two bars.

 

Obviously this is an expensive way to have fun. More for special occasions, than the 2 weeks of affordable debauchery that can be had in Thailand.

 

Of course, if I had about £10 million in the bank, there would also be some long holidays in Japan. 

Some of our other members seem to have the money to travel in considerable style (first class flights etc). So for those with the money, why not try Japan?

[Guest fountainhall]

So for those with the money, why not try Japan?

 

Even without a major bank balance, if your flight to Thailand goes through Tokyo, why not consider a 2 or 3 night stopover?

[Guest]

Yes, the flights go via Japan, I think a short stopover is a good idea.

 

 

 

These young gentlemen seem to be having fun. Perhaps they're expecting Fountainhall to visit?

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

You got it! That's the mounting expectation for my trip in May  LOL

[fedssocr]

just happened to see this story about a new-ish documentary about the male sex workers of Tokyo

http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/society/article/2127079/boys-sale-dark-world-japans-gay-prostitution