The Dates for the Gay Festival in Myanmar, 2010

[Guest fountainhall]

This is a fascinating and highly informative thread. Thank you to all.

[billyhouston]

Found it at last. This is a reasonable version of that which I downloaded:

 

 

Visa on Arrival

[Guest josan]

KhorTose: Are you suggesting that anyone with an economic interest in Myanmar can not have any opinions about the country?

 

For your information I do not own any business directly or indirectly in Myanmar. Neither does my friend. He is a lowly civil servant working in a teacher-training institute. Any money that I collect in SE Asia and take into Myanmar goes to helping funding gay causes and to help pay tuition for students. As I previously said all of my interest is in trying to help the guys in Myanmar expand the gay culture and gay rights.

 

I will repeat:

[Guest josan]

Gaybutton: About your hotel request. Everyone has a different level of comfort. As I mentioned it is probably best to get a copy of the Lonely Planet guide book. Even an older edition at a used book store would be find as the "sleeping" sections do not seem to change much. This section is broken down in Budget, Midrange and Top End. Many tourist have tried out most of these hotels and found them acceptable. As we constantly feed LP info about travel there they update the next edition.

[Guest josan]

KhorTose, your hot button to the interview of THE LADY is over ten [10] year old [1997]. Many, many things have changed during this time. The latest comments about tourist going to Myanmar made by Suu Kyi only objected to the large Chinese tours that have been pouring into the country. This was last year I believe.

[Guest josan]

.

The upcoming elections in Myanmar: Sadly, the West, primarily America and Britain, is probably being done a favor by the Myanmar military government. For twenty years if you asked one of the western governments what their policy on Myanmar was the reply was: Aung San Suu Kyi. If asked about Chinese influence in South East Asia the West always said: Aung San Suu Kyi. What about the international flow of drug? Aung San Suu Kyi. On and on

[KhorTose]

KhorTose: Are you suggesting that anyone with an economic interest in Myanmar can not have any opinions about the country?

 

I did not tell anyone not to go to Burma. I just informed people of what Nobel prize winning Aung San Suu Kyi said about tourists, and advised them to use their own conscience. You came back with the "virgin queen of the Western world" smear and then proceeded to belittle the use of Burma which my Burmese charity and my country do not use. In other words you became overly defensive. So my question was a fair question as I want to know what interest of yours promotes such a reaction. Thank you for your answer.

 

"Many of us gay folks believe that we have a responsibility to help and assist gay movements anywhere in the world. When one group gains a few rights the whole society gains a little bit. Not to engage and assist is like a denial of who you really are."

 

As a man who for years did and still does tries to stay at and patronize gay businesses, I do understand your answer. However, the very least I would recommend to others that if they choose to go to Burma to do what billyhoustan suggested, and what I did when I was there by staying in small hotels and trying not to give any money to this unbelievably rotten government. One also might suggest that you trade your money very carefully on the black market, or at least on the unoffical offical government black market rate and not at the published rate. This is the only country in the world that I would give this recommendation. A brief discussion of the three different rates, and the risk should be part of any invitation to Burma. Why give these corrupt bastard their asking rate that no bank or credit card company in the world is willing to accept? You say your basic message was not political, but sometimes the absence of information is in of itself political, and I was quite surprised that you reacted so strongly when I included just one facet of the Burmese problem.

[KhorTose]

KhorTose, your hot button to the interview of THE LADY is over ten [10] year old [1997]. Many, many things have changed during this time. The latest comments about tourist going to Myanmar made by Suu Kyi only objected to the large Chinese tours that have been pouring into the country. This was last year I believe.

 

In other words she has not changed her mind.

[KhorTose]

So what? My interest was getting my question answered, not who answered it.

 

Gee whiz, I am really really glad that you did not make a mistake. Where is the ignore button on this web site.

[Gaybutton]

Gee whiz, I am really really glad that you did not make a mistake. Where is the ignore button on this web site.

You've got to be kidding. That's your idea of something important? Like I said, my interest was getting my question answered. For what reason should I have cared who posted the answer?

 

You'll find the ignore feature on your profile. Just click your name at the top right of the screen and follow the drop-down menu. Then you can ignore anyone you want.

[KhorTose]

You've got to be kidding. That's your idea of something important? Like I said, my interest was getting my question answered. For what reason should I have cared who posted the answer?

 

You'll find the ignore feature on your profile. Just click your name at the top right of the screen and follow the drop-down menu. Then you can ignore anyone you want.

 

Come on, go back and reread the post. I can understand if you cannot comprehend the arguments---which I know to be untrue in this case---but I cannot understand why you cannot read the arguments and follow the discussion, and this is not the first time I've noticed you doing this.

[Gaybutton]

this is not the first time I've noticed you doing this.

People notice a lot of things about me. Some make a full study of everything I've ever written. If you really want to make an issue of it, fine with me. You're right and I'm wrong. Satisfied?

[Guest josan]

KhorTose, your hot button to the interview of THE LADY is over ten [10] year old [1997]. Many, many things have changed during this time. The latest comments about tourist going to Myanmar made by Suu Kyi only objected to the large Chinese tours that have been pouring into the country. This was last year I believe.

 

In other words she has not changed her mind.

 

----

 

Not quite sure how this follows? You wrote: "However the first thing you need to know is that the elected leader of Burma Aung Sun Suu Kyi--who is presently under house arrest now for 15+ years---has asked tourist to stay away."

 

This is not true. She has only spoken against the large tour groups that fly in from China as they have contracts direct with the government. She is NOT against tourism in general nor against independent travel to Myanmar.

[Guest josan]

"However, the very least I would recommend to others that if they choose to go to Burma to do what billyhoustan suggested, and what I did when I was there by staying in small hotels and trying not to give any money to this unbelievably rotten government. One also might suggest that you trade your money very carefully on the black market, or at least on the unoffical offical government black market rate and not at the published rate. "

 

 

BUT, isn't this what everyone does? This is SOP for anyone who does their reading/research before going. No one has any ideas about helping prop up that government!

 

During the last maybe 7 or 8 years there has not been a black market in Myanmar. There is the Government Rate that is used only for international trade. Everyone else, and that is EVERYONE else, uses the common rate which is announced on the radio every morning. NO one ever asks you to use the Government Rate.

[Guest josan]

"Why give these corrupt bastard their asking rate that no bank or credit card company in the world is willing to accept?"

 

We do not know what anyone else would do because it is the western sanctions that prevent the use of western credit cards in Myanmar and prevent transactions between banks, internationally.

[Guest josan]

Some of the reasons that travel to Myanmar is now encouraged:

 

-We now see that sanctions have in fact hurt the people and not the government. In fact it has made the government stronger.

 

-Many of us have found that by going to Myanmar our money helps the new growing middle class there to grow their businesses and send their children to school.

 

-It is this growing middle class that, in the end, will change the government, not sanctions. That by backing new small businesses for local folks you add to this middle class. You would be surprised how far $300.00 goes to help a bike shop, a video rental shop, etc.

 

-That donations to schools and paying tuition for Myanmar students is a much bigger help than standing outside the country yelling sanctions! You can send a child to high school for about $100.00 for the whole year!

 

-That just because certain western governments do not like the government in Myanmar is not a reason why people can not help people. It is this people-to-people contact that in the long run will change things in a positive way.

[Guest fountainhall]

Hi josan. I am enjoying your posts. But you seem to have a little problem in quoting from earlier posts. To do that, click the REPLY box immediately after the post in question - not the ADD REPLY box. For example, when I do that with your last post, I get this (although I have deleted the middle parts for brevity's sake) -

 

Some of the reasons that travel to Myanmar is now encouraged:

 

-That just because certain western governments do not like the government in Myanmar is not a reason why people can not help people. It is this people-to-people contact that in the long run will change things in a positive way.

You can then edit the post you are replying to to isolate one part and then reply to it. You can keep the rest of the earlier post and then do the same if you want to make multiple replies. But each time you must make sure that the 'quote' has the same header as the earlier one, which you just do by clicking and copying - e.g.

 

 

- and when you finish each part you want quote, copy the quote in square brackets you will find at the end of the full quote. This is the 'code' the programme uses to end quotes. At the end of the post, just scroll down and click the ADD REPLY box

 

I hope that makes sense. I see there is a MultiQuote box which may be easier but I have never known how to use it!

[KhorTose]

Fountainhall is correct. I am lazy and tend to reply to each message separately which is another way of making clear what are your words are, and what is the quote you are replying to. In the interst of space and readiblitiy I will do it in the right way.

 

KhorTose, your hot button to the interview of THE LADY is over ten [10] year old [1997]. Many, many things have changed during this time. The latest comments about tourist going to Myanmar made by Suu Kyi only objected to the large Chinese tours that have been pouring into the country. This was last year I believe.

In other words she has not changed her mind.

Not quite sure how this follows?

 

Seems clear to me, but okay I will make it very easy for you. Just show me one reference where she said she now wants tourist to come to Burma. I mean direct reference, as the government of Burma has twice tried to convince the world that she wants tourist and all the Burma web sites say the opposite.

 

During the last maybe 7 or 8 years there has not been a black market in Myanmar. There is the Government Rate that is used only for international trade. Everyone else, and that is EVERYONE else, uses the common rate which is announced on the radio every morning. NO one ever asks you to use the Government Rate.

 

You know what, now I am again suspicious of who the heck you really are. I have a American Lao doctor friend who regularly travels to Burma as a member of Doctors without Borders. There is a black market rate, and it is safe to use. If any member of this board (except Josan) who plans to go to Burma would like to know how to get this rate please PM me and I will tell you.

 

Some of the reasons that travel to Myanmar is now encouraged:

-We now see that sanctions have in fact hurt the people and not the government. In fact it has made the government stronger.

 

Encourage by whom? Not the western nations, not by nobel prize winner elected leader of Burma Aung San Suu Lyi, not by the hundreds of free burma type sites--some of whom are based in Thailand. Secondly, you are saying the Western nations are the reason for this government's horrendous treatment of its own people. Quite a leap, I am impressed that you know far more then they do about what is good for Burma. I am not saying they are perfect, but please we are not responsible for this oppressive government.

 

-Many of us have found that by going to Myanmar our money helps the new growing middle class there to grow their businesses and send their children to school.

What middle class? Per capita income in Burma is $1000 USD versus Thailand at $9000 USD. All of your money will end up in the general's hands and they will use it to suppress their own people and ethnically cleanse their minorities. Just what Thailand needs is to have thousands or more shan and karen refugees.

 

-It is this growing middle class that, in the end, will change the government, not sanctions. That by backing new small businesses for local folks you add to this middle class. You would be surprised how far $300.00 goes to help a bike shop, a video rental shop, etc.

 

Once again you know more then all the Western governments.

 

That just because certain western governments do not like the government in Myanmar is not a reason why people can not help people. It is this people-to-people contact that in the long run will change things in a positive way.

Yes I see your logic. It is the evil Western government's dislike of Burma which compels them on a course of hurting the little people in Burma. I mean there is no way they could be looking at the long range picture that by depriving Burma of trade and investments they are keeping this government so poor that it cannot buy all the arms, tanks, helicopters, etc that is needs to suppress its own people and eliminate their own minorities, nor can they cannot buy cameras, bugs, and listening devices to control every aspect of the lives of their people or any hope of revolution of their people. Tell me when they killed all of the monks in that last big riot, where did some of the money come from for the army?

[Guest fountainhall]

Just show me one reference where she said she now wants tourist to come to Burma. I mean direct reference, as the government of Burma has twice tried to convince the world that she wants tourist and all the Burma web sites say the opposite.

A quick surf on the web gives several examples of what might be seen to be a change in her position on tourism in 2009. This from the 14 August 2009 edition of Britain's respected Daily Telegraph newspaper -

 

Aung San Suu Kyi, the Burmese opposition leader, who was sentenced this week to a further 18 months' house arrest, has dropped her opposition to tourism to Burma.

 

She now believes it can be encouraged, provided it is run through private operations and not through the government, and that visitors might help draw attention to the oppression of the people by the military junta. She has made her views known through a close acquaintance and former member of her party, the National League for Democracy (NLD).

 

When last quoted on the subject, in a BBC interview in 2002, she said: "We have not yet come to the point where we encourage people to come to Burma as tourists." She has since been silent on the issue.

 

The news of her change of stance has been welcomed by the travel trade but left campaigners against the military regime unmoved

Burma opposition leader Suu Kyi: 'Tourism might help' - Telegraph

 

This was virtually repeated in an article in the Sydney Morning Herald on 22 December 2009 -

 

The Free Burma Coalition, comprised mainly of exiled Burmese, now fully supports tourism and travel to Myanmar, believing the benefits of contact to outweigh the implied show of support travel brings. In August, Aung San Suu Kyi, the jailed beacon of Burmese democracy and postergirl for freedom activists around the world, appeared to reverse her previously vocal opposition to tourism in comments leaked to the international press.

Burma Tourism | MIlitary Junta | Aung San Suu Kyi

 

Whilst these articles do not make clear her exact position, the comments from the co-founder of her party, then recently released from prison and outlined in a travel article in The Times of London on 12 December 2009, do seem pretty clear -

 

It remains an overwhelmingly agrarian society, a seemingly delightful throwback to an earlier, innocent age. Unfortunately, it is that way because it is governed by one of the world’s most brutal, backward and xenophobic regimes, which raises the inevitable question of whether tourists should go there at all.

 

No, said Aung San Suu Kyi, Burma’s courageous opposition leader, in the 1990s when the junta began admitting tourists because it was so desperate for foreign currency.

 

Yes, with certain provisos, said every diplomat, aid worker, opposition politician, monk and Burmese citizen that we questioned. Circumstances have changed, they argued . . . They ask only that tourists do their best to patronise private — not government — enterprises and understand that, away from the areas they visit, savage repression continues.

 

Ms Suu Kyi, “The Lady”, remains under house arrest and largely incommunicado, and whether she still favours a tourist boycott is a subject of much speculation. But U Win Tin, 80, a co-founder of her National League for Democracy who was recently released from 19 years in prison, told me: “We welcome foreigners in this country if their money doesn’t help the junta.”

Burma: to go or not to go? | SE Asia - Times Online

[KhorTose]

A quick surf on the web gives several examples of what might be seen to be a change in her position on tourism in 2009. This from the 14 August 2009 edition of Britain's respected Daily Telegraph newspaper -

Burma opposition leader Suu Kyi: 'Tourism might help' - Telegraph

This was virtually repeated in an article in the Sydney Morning Herald on 22 December 2009 -

Burma Tourism | MIlitary Junta | Aung San Suu Kyi

Whilst these articles do not make clear her exact position, the comments from the co-founder of her party, then recently released from prison and outlined in a travel article in The Times of London on 12 December 2009, do seem pretty clear -

Burma: to go or not to go? | SE Asia - Times Online

 

Thanks Fountainhall, I am familiar with all of these articles.

1. The lady herself did not say this and interviews are still possible. That is why I specifically asked Josan for first person interviews like the one I gave him.

2. The Free Burma type web sites---you have a big one in the UK--all say it is the Burma government's propaganda.

 

For further information try this UK web site where they discuss the subject at length and talk about child labor used to build tourist sites. If you really want to know they are dozens of web sites from Thailand to South Africa against this government. I get most of my information from the US based free Burma web site, but england for english.

 

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/index.php/campaigns/the-tourism-campaign/11/123

 

As sort of an interesting aside, the present Burmese government is trying in a big way to promote tourism---since they own all the tourist hotels. Every web site they have seems to have three things in common.

1. They are slow--old servers.

2. They never talk about the exchange rate or if they do they give the official rate.

3. They all say how safe Burma is and what a great place to invest--strange for a tourist site--yes.

 

If you would like I will show you some examples from an old newsletter I have, if I can find it.

[Guest fountainhall]

The lady herself did not say this and interviews are still possible

Is that the case? Then, as she is the subject of so much world attention, I find it somewhat odd that she has granted none in the last year or so in order to make her views more clear.

 

To be frank, I know far less about the Burma/Myanmar issue than you and others posting on this thread and was reluctant to become involved. But you had asked a question, so I sifted through about 200 articles on google and found the press quotes I highlighted. Frankly I find these interesting because they were written in 2009 and do 'seem' to contradict your very clearly stated view that Ms Aung remains against tourism. The quote from the co-founder of her party in the same year is also interesting as it 'seems' to bear out the same view.

 

Prior to 2009, the last direct comment from her I can find is from an interview on the BBC in 2002 which is referred to in that Daily Telegraph article -

 

When last quoted on the subject, in a BBC interview in 2002, she said: "We have not yet come to the point where we encourage people to come to Burma as tourists." She has since been silent on the issue.

If she continued to hold that view in mid-2009, I admit I find it odd, given that The Daily Telegraph comments were reprinted in a lot of media around the world, she has never come out and disclaimed them. Indeed, I could find nothing contradicting these 2009 'comments' in any of the articles I looked at. And if only because the present government is actively trying to promote tourism, I'd have thought that Ms. Aung would have found some opportunity to reinforce her earlier views.

 

So do these articles represent her true position? I do not know. But they do at least cast doubt on one of KhorTose's comments, in my view.

 

That said, I also have concerns about Josan's comment re there being no black market rate, as I had always assumed there was one. I find it hard to believe the government would actually announce each day what the unofficial rate is when it is so markedly different from the official rate.

 

That said, I don't wish to continue to be involved directly in this discussion, except as an interested observer who may comment from time to time.

[KhorTose]

Is that the case? Then, as she is the subject of so much world attention, I find it somewhat odd that she has granted none in the last year or so in order to make her views more clear.

 

She has been under arrest since that idiot swam to her house.

 

To be frank, I know far less about the Burma/Myanmar issue than you and others posting on this thread and was reluctant to become involved. But you had asked a question, so I sifted through about 200 articles on google and found the press quotes I highlighted. Frankly I find these interesting because they were written in 2009 and do 'seem' to contradict your very clearly stated view that Ms Aung remains against tourism. The quote from the co-founder of her party in the same year is also interesting as it 'seems' to bear out the same view.

Prior to 2009, the last direct comment from her I can find is from an interview on the BBC in 2002 which is referred to in that Daily Telegraph article - If she continued to hold that view in mid-2009, I admit I find it odd, given that The Daily Telegraph comments were reprinted in a lot of media around the world, she has never come out and disclaimed them. Indeed, I could find nothing contradicting these 2009 'comments' in any of the articles I looked at. And if only because the present government is actively trying to promote tourism, I'd have thought that Ms. Aung would have found some opportunity to reinforce her earlier views.

So do these articles represent her true position? I do not know. But they do at least cast doubt on one of KhorTose's comments, in my view.

 

Her last interview was in the progressive article you did not read or you would know it was 2007 as Josan committed on in an earlier post. It is strange you had to sift through 200 articles as that is one of the first things that pop up if you do Aung San Suu Kyi's views on tourism are these two second hand reports of her feelings in this matter. I have known about these articles for a long time, and was very surprised that Josan did not mention them. I suspect he is not a Westerner with access to google or he would have mentioned them. I delibertly asked him a second time just to find out if he could answer me, which anyone---including you---with access to google could easily do. She has not retracted her statement and the Free Burma web sites that support her (including the one in the UK) continue to say she does not want tourist. If you read what the co-founder--who was recently released from jail said--it is that he does not know her current views.

 

Let me see. We have a man who does not know how to use google or the ability to access it. A man who mentions tourism and invites people to come, but gives no information on the best way to exchange money, a man who seldom posts and when he does it is to get people to come to Burma, and a man who belittles a nobel prize winning elected leader who has been imprisoned for 15 years by a military dictatorship. Not absolute proof in any sense, but I for one do not buy his neutrality nor his interest in making things better for gays in Burma.

 

That said, I also have concerns about Josan's comment re there being no black market rate, as I had always assumed there was one. I find it hard to believe the government would actually announce each day what the unofficial rate is when it is so markedly different from the official rate.

 

There is a huge difference between the three rates. The official government rate is low, the unofficial rate is slightly better and the black market rate is a wow wow of a difference. Sorry fountainhall, but this is one of the only things he said that is true. The official-unofficial rate is announced on the radio and posted at all government parks and other points that charge for access. I freely admit, it is hard to believe, but it is true.

 

That said, I don't wish to continue to be involved directly in this discussion, except as an interested observer who may comment from time to time.

 

Thank you

[Guest fountainhall]

I stand corrected. But there is one thing I still do not quite understand and which no doubt you will clarify. You say in an earlier post

[Guest josan]

'fountainhall' date='02 June 2010 - 03:26 AM'

 

Hi josan. I am enjoying your posts. But you seem to have a little problem in quoting from earlier posts. To do that, click the REPLY box immediately after the post in question - not the ADD REPLY box. For example, when I do that with your last post, I get this (although I have deleted the middle parts for brevity's sake) -

 

 

Thanks for your help! I do appreciate you help. I will have to practice this. I read many sites but seldom post except to support gay movements and causes.

 

P.S. I see that I still did not get it right. Well next time.

[Guest josan]

Mr. KhorTose, I am not going to reply to all of your cut and paste of the propaganda put out by the western press and the US and British government subsidized