Thinking outside the Box 2

[Gaybutton]

What are these magic numbers based on?

In my opinion, I'd say the numbers are based on two things: whim and the religious right.

[Bob]

In my opinion, I'd say the numbers are based on two things: whim and the religious right.

 

That's rather precious. You want an 8-year-old driving a car, voting, buying prescription drugs, having sex with a 45-year-old, etc.? (sort of rhetorical as I know you don't).

 

My guess is we all agree there ought to be age limits for certain activities and the only disagreement in some cases is the exact age limit to apply. Generally, I agree with the age limits set in most countries as they seem to make sense. Sometimes, I don't (for one example only, I figure if that a kid at 18 can join the army and go off to war, he ought to be allowed go into a bar to buy a drink). But I do recognize that each society has the right to set the age limits and the penalties for violating those age limits.

[dapitt]

I think you have just discredited every one of your 78 posts and future ones as well.

 

Hardly. But you, friend, may be doing so for yours.

[PattayaMale]

That's rather precious. You want an 8-year-old driving a car, voting, buying prescription drugs, having sex with a 45-year-old, etc.? (sort of rhetorical as I know you don't).

 

My guess is we all agree there ought to be age limits for certain activities and the only disagreement in some cases is the exact age limit to apply. Generally, I agree with the age limits set in most countries as they seem to make sense. Sometimes, I don't (for one example only, I figure if that a kid at 18 can join the army and go off to war, he ought to be allowed go into a bar to buy a drink). But I do recognize that each society has the right to set the age limits and the penalties for violating those age limits.

 

Of course countries have a right to make laws and penalties for violating laws. But the discussion was about "thinking out side the box" and what and why the laws exist. My thought on "magic numbers" was meant to provoke thought. Like your example of why a person at 18 is mentally fit to kill people in war or conflict but not fit enough to drink until 21?

[Gaybutton]

You want an 8-year-old driving a car

Don't laugh. In Thailand they don't drive cars, but I've seen plenty of them driving motorcycles.

[Guest thaiworthy]

My objection to drug use is the criminal activity it leads to.

Exactly. I did not say so before, because it just seemed so obvious. I can see now that it is not. Comparing prostitution to illegal drugs seems illogical to me. They are two different things. They are both against the law; but one is enforced the other is not. The OP said, "besides being illegal." It is not a question of what's wrong with drug use as it is what's right with it. In a place such as Thailand I would rather see young Thais achieving things rather than escaping from things when used to excess. I would say the same thing about alcoholics. However, I also believe the every individual should have a choice and that the laws should be changed to eliminate the criminality of using drugs like marijuana. That will not happen in my lifetime, and especially not in Thailand.

 

The above was going to be the end of my post. But here's the reality:

 

I am now going to make an embarrassing, bombshell admission of guilt. I don't want to say it, but it is has to be said if there is to be anything genuinely gained by others who are reading this post. You see, I have been a marijuana smoker for the last 15 years, and on and off before that. I have recently quit. There are many reasons for this, so this will directly and I hope succinctly answer the OP's original question.

 

This took a great deal of soul-searching. I am crying as I type this because I fear I will lose friendships and respect among the posters I have been writing to personally. You people have a nasty habit of making me tell the truth.

 

1. I am facing bariatric surgery next month to lose weight. I am too big. I want to move to Thailand, but have too many health problems, including diabetes, that will all be solved when I lose weight. Decision made. I was questioned repeatedly about the use of street drugs on forms. I lied. But I am lying no more.

 

2. Marijuana makes me hungry. When I am hungry, I eat. When I eat too much, I gain weight. If I gain weight, I will die.

 

3. Marijuana makes me paranoid. I can't post anything without sounding like a neurotic. It had to stop.

 

4. Marijuana is expensive. What little money I have must to go my future in Thailand.

 

5. Marijuana is a waste of time. It is a recreational drug I used to "escape" from my evil job of 16 years. It was a psychological crutch for me.

 

6. I lost my lover of 4 years, due to marijuana use.

 

7. Every evening, coming home from work was the same. I'd look forward all day to lighting up. It was controlling me. I had no control over it.

 

8. Marijuana use makes me lazy. Nothing else gets done.

 

9. Marijuana is illegal in Thailand. And since this is where I hope to live one day, I am not going to take the chance with the stuff over there and end up spending the rest of my life in a Thai jail.

 

So there you are. 8 good reasons that have nothing to do with the law. And since these boards are all harbingers of gossip, I imagine it will be widely known that Thaiworthy was once a drug-addict. So be it. I do not want to be a hypocrite. But I cannot say that it is wrong for everybody today, when yesterday I said it was right. It is only wrong for me. It is up to the individual. I did not mean to insult, Dapitt, but from my perspective the dialog in this thread is not helping me at all.

 

I would appreciate it guys, if you will support me in this decision, and I am so sorry if I have disappointed anyone. Thailand is very important to me. And far more important than anything else in this world, including drugs.

[Bob]

I would appreciate it guys, if you will support me in this decision, and I am so sorry if I have disappointed anyone. Thailand is very important to me. And far more important than anything else in this world, including drugs.

 

You certainly don't need support from us but, frankly, it sounds like a very good decision for you. Good luck with it.

 

I personally believe that marijuana ought to be legalized for adults for the basic reason that it's likely less dangerous (overall) than alchohol; plus, again in my view, by legalizing it, it likely will lessen the flow of other illicit and more dangerous drugs at least here in the US (because the bulk of drug flow around here is pot and pot distributors normally only add a few other illicit and more dangerous drugs to the mix because what they're doing is illegal anyway).

 

But, although I tried pot a couple of times when I was in my twenties, I absolutely won't use it myself. Why? For two basic reasons. First, every one of my friends and relatives who smoked it moderately or more eventually lost interest in anything that used to be important to them. I don't know what you call that psychologically but it likely relates to the notion that they eventually "learn" that reality sucks and only being stoned for them counts for anything (I'd note Thaiworthy's #5,#7 & #8 sound very close to what I saw happen with so many friends). So much talent wasted. Second, while representing people who were involuntarily committed to a state psychiatric hospital for over a decade, I saw too many people who were there solely due to use of marijuana. Like any drug, it affects some people rather severely (and even substantially affects some people depending on a given moment in time in their body clock). Interestingly, like Thaiworthy's #3, the diagnosis was usually paranoid schizophrenia.

[Gaybutton]

I cannot say that it is wrong for everybody today, when yesterday I said it was right.

Why not? You've learned whatever it is you've needed to learn and you've made decisions and changed your opinion. If you lose friends because of your post, then they weren't true friends in the first place. More likely you've gained friends from your post. If you are feeling that people will think the less of you for it, then that's the wrong feeling. You said that marijuana was fucking up your life. You finally realized that after having paid quite a price for much too long, but at least you realized it and now you want better out of life than you were getting. I think that deserves praise and I also think that you are taking the right steps so that you can discard the past and make a good new start and new life right here in Thailand. You'll be welcomed with open arms.

[Guest thaiworthy]

Reason No. 10:

 

Someone referenced the film "Reefer Madness," saying that one toke turns you into a sex maniac. This was certainly true in my case, although it took more than one toke. It makes you shoot like a bullet. And when you're diabetic, something that makes you shoot like a bullet becomes pretty damn important. Without it, I don't have quite as much interest in sex. However, the doctors say that if I get my weight down to a healthy level, all that will come back and the sex life will return to normal. But it is so much easier to accept the quick, easy way to an active sex life with drugs, than the harder, more time-consuming solution of hard work through diet and exercise.

 

It all comes down to the individual and his circumstances. Moderation in all things. If you can't be moderate, then stop it. The law is there to protect people like me who lose control. There is no way to regulate its use for an individual, just a society. I am not going to stand on a soapbox and preach what is best for anyone else, but if you want to hear my own experience, then at least listen what I've had to say.

 

I am successful in life. I have money in the bank, skills, hobbies and a good career to fall back on. The Thai youth hooked on Yabba doesn't. Give him a chance. For me, there is no argument. tdpers said "What's wrong with bar boys and girls using drugs anyway?" If you haven't found an answer to this by now, then this whole thread has been a waste of time.

[Bob]

Someone referenced the film "Reefer Madness," saying that one toke turns you into a sex maniac. This was certainly true in my case, although it took more than one toke. It makes you shoot like a bullet.

 

 

Well, now you're making me want to go give it a try again! Just kidding, I'm not touching the stuff.

[Guest thaiworthy]

There are programs to help the homeless street kids, programs to feed the hungry and programs to help with medical needs. I wonder if there are any drug rehabilitation programs, in Pattaya, in particular. Surely, there must be.

 

If not, I may just start one.

[Guest Oogleman]

thaiworthy.

 

you just went up a whole heap in my estimation.

[PattayaMale]

Good luck with the surgery. I have seen it really help some people loose weight.

 

I have thought of having bariatric surgery, but am not sure if it is covered my insurance. Anyway, let us know how you progress.

[Guest Hedda]

Nothing personal in this comment, but it seems to me that you can't warn young people about the horrors of using recreational drugs when you say that you used them for over 15 years and still ended up "successful in life...with money in the bank, skills, hobbies and a good career to fall back on."

 

Young people have always experimented with drugs,be they alcohol, cannabis, opium, cocaine, speed, caffeine, tobacco,or any of the limitless pleasure-making synthetics science can now provide.

 

Virtually every culture throughout history has had its own drug culture, with alcohol, locally grown herbs or other concoctions designed to achieve the same pleasure effects. Like sex and food, most substance we call illegal drugs now have been quite legal until recently, including things like cocaine and heroin, that that were sold as patent medicines a hundred years ago.

 

It's the modern world that has decided to divide drugs into two categories: legal and illegal. Some drugs are legal only if consumed after a certain age; some are legal if you can pay a doctor to write a prescription for them; and some are illegal simply because some old people called the government, who are probably long since dead,said so.

 

Since most drugs are enjoyable in the same way that food or sex are, i.e.,they tend to make people feel good, a lot of humans tend to abuse them by consuming too much. The big difference is that we haven't made obesity, nymphomania, alcoholism or dependency on legal drugs a crime.

 

Yet, many people think that the abuse of food and booze, which frequently trigger obesity and alcoholism, and all the ills that come with them, take a far greater personal, social and financial toll on our national collective health today, than the use of so-called "illegal" drugs ever has. But we still put drug abusers in jail, while the rest of us eat or drink our way to destruction with impunity. If the role of government is to protect us from ourselves, does any of this make any sense ?

[Guest thaiworthy]

Nothing personal in this comment, but it seems to me that you can't warn young people about the horrors of using recreational drugs when you say that you used them for over 15 years and still ended up "successful in life...with money in the bank, skills, hobbies and a good career to fall back on."

 

. . . Yet, many people think that the abuse of food and booze, which frequently trigger obesity and alcoholism, and all the ills that come with them, take a far greater personal, social and financial toll on our national collective health today, than the use of so-called "illegal" drugs ever has. But we still put drug abusers in jail, while the rest of us eat or drink our way to destruction with impunity. If the role of government is to protect us from ourselves, does any of this make any sense ?

 

In U.S. (and other) cultures you need to be somewhat successful in order to survive. It's a different plane of existence for the Thai. A guy who works at McDonald's can be successful, it's a relative thing. Another example is habitual gambling. Gambling requires money to fund it and people work their tails off to have money to gamble with. They are successful in making money, even though they lose some or most of it. But they live in a house, have a job, they are moderately successful. Movie stars, athletes, etc. make tons of bread and some are addicted to cocaine because they can afford it. They too, are successful. If all these people quit their drug, the success structure largely remains intact. My thinking all those years was that if you work hard, you get to play hard. This does not set a good example for anyone at all. And the longer you believe it, the longer you are only fooling yourself.

 

It is rumored that the famous astronomer, Carl Sagan smoked pot for many years. He was still successful. As the years go by, however, there comes a time when a drug does nothing for you anymore, or it actually interferes with your health. Even if I were taking a prescription for a legal drug, if it didn't help me, I would stop taking it. It's my body. I'm really not talking about marijuana, though. Maybe that should be legalized. I'm really talking about Yabba, because it seems so prevalent among Thais and so dangerous. Please go back and re-read others' posts about Yabba. Please re-read Bob's post about institutionalized addicts. Please Hedda, please re-read them.

 

To be capable of speaking on any subject you should at least have some firsthand personal knowledge in dealing with it. You can't tell me the early founders of AA weren't once themselves alcoholics. Those people were successful enough to rise above their failings and achieve their goals. The addicted Thai boy doesn't have that success structure built into his psyche or his culture. He lives for the day.

 

The history of abuse with alcohol, drugs, and food is an issue that is as old as prostitution itself. It will never go away and there may never be a law to adequately control it. The law is an issue best left to the people in a society, not government. Unfortunately, in Thailand, the people do not have the freedom to effectively legislate as well as societies in the West do.

 

This is a broken world. The law is not perfect. Therefore, it is the individual in Thailand, just as it is in the West to decide for themselves how to regulate their own lives. However, when that individual has enough to eat, a place to sleep and has employment, bad government or not, he is better able to deal with addictive behavior. That is why there are so many programs in place to help the Pattaya poor.

 

Yes, it is grossly unfair that we eat, eat, eat . . . drink, drink, drink, and laugh our merry way while others sit, miserably incarcerated. The law needs to be changed. The government needs to be changed. And if law and government are so implacable, then what's left? I'll tell you. The individual. At least, today. Is it any wonder so many Thai live just for today?

 

If that individual has some support structure in place, he faces a better chance. And then, eventually he will attain his own success structure. This goes for all of us, same same as the merry drinkers, the overeaters, the chain smokers, and all the rest of us in this spoiled alphabet soup we call farangland.

[Bob]

Nothing personal in this comment, but it seems to me that you can't warn young people about the horrors of using recreational drugs when you say that you used them for over 15 years and still ended up "successful in life...with money in the bank, skills, hobbies and a good career to fall back on."

 

Sorry, Hedda, but that's make no sense at all to me. Who better to warn them than somebody who's been there and done that? They know the horrors all too well and often are much better positioned by their own history to spot the problem, be aware of the signs and pitfalls of relapse, and to provide advice that may be palatable (basically having a better idea of knowing what works and doesn't work).

 

Some of our best anti-drug counselors in my area (the ones the local courts use) are former drug abusers. And everyone of the alcohol counselors that I know in our area are AA members themselves.

 

If you're talking about hypocrisy (i.e., somebody currently using illegal drugs and trying to tell youngsters not to - especially if the kids are aware of the adviser's personal use), then I can understand your comment; otherwise, not.

[Guest thaiworthy]

If you're talking about hypocrisy (i.e., somebody currently using illegal drugs and trying to tell youngsters not to - especially if the kids are aware of the adviser's personal use), then I can understand your comment; otherwise, not.

 

I'm not sure if this is really what he is saying, Bob. But yes, if so, I agree. I'm not sure this is common, though. What is much more common is corrupt Thai police who are also hypocrites, taking tea money in the guise of upholding the law. That is the obvious one. There are many other examples, but then we would be going off-topic. If we started a discussion on hypocrisy and corruption, it would deserve another thread. Good speculation, though. You are "thinking outside the box" as the title of this thread suggests.

[KhorTose]

Reason No. 10:

 

Someone referenced the film "Reefer Madness," saying that one toke turns you into a sex maniac.

 

 

It all comes down to the individual and his circumstances. Moderation in all things. If you can't be moderate, then stop it.

 

I am back, and safely in Hillside 4 in Chiang Mai. I refered to reefer madness in that the movies probably made the whole problem worst by the exaggerations. I love the second sentence, but beg to ask that I might rephase it just a little. Drugs are never a problem, it is drug abuse that is the problem and I would continue to urge laws to deal with drug abuse. However, I advocate more compassionate punishement through drug courts and counseling. It has worked everywhere it has been tried. Real counseling not some cheap 12 step program---although I admit that is the answer for some, and I support anything that works.

[Bob]

However, I advocate more compassionate punishement through drug courts and counseling. It has worked everywhere it has been tried. Real counseling not some cheap 12 step program---although I admit that is the answer for some, and I support anything that works.

 

Absolutely right. The courts in my area that have set up the special drug courts have worked wonders - cleaned up a ton of lives and saved the taxpayers a wad of money by using incarceration a hell of a lot less. However, I've never seen any evidence that there is anyone compassionate or intelligent enough in the Thai system to even give it a try there.

[Guest tdperhs]

All species of organic creatures rely on two instincts to survive beyond one generation: survival of the self and survival of the species. To guarantee the latter, breeding is usually carried on by only the strongest and healthiest members, the best resources are consumed by those strongest or clever enough to take them, offspring are produced in massive numbers, or the weakest are either culled at birth or destroyed by other members of the species before they can consume part of the limited food supply or pass those weaknesses on to another generation. Now I have not studied the survival habits of all carbon based creatures; but in the brief time I taught biology, I have only come across one species that will expend resources to perpetuate the survival of its weakest members, homo sapiens. Of course the reason for this is an emotion called compassion, an impulse borne of the social hysteria, "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

 

Out of that emotion has grown a series of laws and sociopolitical practices; such as, rules that give the handicapped preferences over those who support them, welfare payments to those who are intellectually unable to compete successfully in the economy, extensive medical care to extend the lives of the terminally ill for a few months, and so many other practices. The rationale behind this is the hope that, with sufficient time and support, one may overcome his weaknesses and stride productively among the strong. And on some rare occasions those practices work. But never with the regularity that would justify them.

 

Social practices that have never worked are those instituted to protect people against themselves: prohibitions against alcohol, narcotics, sex (The early Christian church for a while until it became aware of a dearth of little Christians; then it decided it was okay to have sex to make babies but it would be a sin to enjoy it.), nicotine, and suicide, to name a few.

 

My belief is, if the weaker members of the species are hell bent on self-destruction with those vices, they should not be impeded from having them. They will have gotten more joy out of their shorter but more satisfying lives and society in general will have gained by the lack of weaker members. Those with a congenital determination to become junkies should be allowed all the drugs they want with the proviso that they are made aware of the consequences. Smokers should be allowed to "...puff, puff, puff until you smoke yourself to death," so long as they do it in an environment that does not impact the breathing of others. Have as many drinks as you like as often as you like, but don't drive. You want to end your own life? Just make sure there's no one at the base of the 15 storey building you are jumping from. Take membership in an opium den.

 

I have no objection to laws and practices that keep people from harming others, only to those that keep people from knowingly destroying themselves. I have no objection to bar boys having drugs if they want them. They are not working in those jobs because they are Thailand's social paradigm. And, if the occasional high gives them some solace against the humiliation they face every evening at the job, I say give it to them.

 

As to the studies about the dangers of drugs, I know long term junkies who are just doing fine. Remember, 83.74% of all statistics are either exaggerations or just plain BS.

[Bob]

Absolutely amazing. Tdperhs, there is absolutely no way anybody can respond to the personal philosophy you lay out above without expending a lot of band width and engendering a lot of hostile thought. After re-reading your words three times, what crept into my mind repeatedly was the thinking emanating from the power levels of Germany of the 1930's.

 

Rather than respond - it'll only create an unpleasant discussion - I simply want to say that I absolutely reject and disagree with many of your notions.

[Guest thaiworthy]

Absolutely amazing. Tdperhs, there is absolutely no way anybody can respond to the personal philosophy you lay out above without expending a lot of band width and engendering a lot of hostile thought. After re-reading your words three times, what crept into my mind repeatedly was the thinking emanating from the power levels of Germany of the 1930's.

 

Rather than respond - it'll only create an unpleasant discussion - I simply want to say that I absolutely reject and disagree with many of your notions.

 

Agreed. Thanks, Bob. You said what I wanted to say. I was seething mad, but I wanted to calm down first. My fingers have been worn down to the bone already. I stand by my original statement 3 pages ago. And if dapitt or anyone else wishes to reassert themselves again about my initial remark, they are welcome to try it.

 

On the other hand, perhaps the moderator will have the humanity to step in and close this damn thread?

 

'

[Guest lvdkeyes]

If people stop responding to the thread it will die a natural death, no need for the moderator to close it, IMHO.

[Gaybutton]

On the other hand, perhaps the moderator will have the humanity to step in and close this damn thread?

I'm sorry, but we don't close threads simply because some of the expressed opinions are controversial. I don't see that any posting rules have been violated, so there are no grounds to justify closing the thread.

[Guest Geezer]