Thinking outside the Box 2

[Guest tdperhs]

What's wrong with bar boys and girls using drugs anyway? Of course they're illegal. Despite its being a Buddhist country Thailand has not escaped the global puritan hysteria that condemns anything that gives us pleasure as being inherently evil. Now I know there are studies that say that certain drugs cause this problem or that problem, but most of them are inconclusive. And if a study were to be done that said that yaba was a simple stimulus that had no undesirable side effects, do you think we'd ever see it?

 

Sex workers make little enough money and the bulk of it gets sent home. They have very little left at the end of the month to spend on any pleasure. And look what they have to go through to make that little bit of money. I could never bring myself to have sex with someone like me for 30 bucks in the States or even 30 Euros, and I've seen men here that make me look like the Olympian ideal.

 

I won't go into the age old argument about alcohol and nicotine. That's been beaten to death.

 

I don't take this position because I use illegal drugs. I tried cocaine once, nothing happened. The mere odor of pot makes me nauseous. I have to put a gun to my head to take aspirin. I hate using any kind of drugs, good or bad. But that is my preference and I don't impose it on others.

[Guest lester1]

Thus rational thought gets sent back to the stone age.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

More like irrational thoughts.

[Guest thaiworthy]

I think you have just discredited every one of your 78 posts and future ones as well.

[Guest RichLB]

I'm surprised by the previous posts and the lack of support for your point of view. I also notice that no one has answered your question seeking to find out what is wrong with the use of recreational drugs other than the legal issue. It seems to me the social and economic costs of enforcing laws limiting an individual's freedom to make the decision to use drugs far outweight whatever benefit (if any) there may be.

[KhorTose]

Sorry Thaiworthy and Lester1, but i completely agree with tdperhs, and I will match your argument for argument. That is when you two present an argument. All you have done so far is to suggest he is insane or stupid. So if we are just going to call names or suggest he idea has no merits then I will do the same and say you are both terribly naive and uniformed. When you get around to looking up facts and not relying on what you have always heard or believed, I will be here to listen and reply.

 

 

[Guest lvdkeyes]

What are the Hazards of Crystal Meth?

Crystal meth is an addictive killer; that much is known. But what makes it so dangerous?

 

* Dangerous Physical Effects - In low doses, crystal meth heightens the senses and makes the users more alert. In higher doses, the drug causes exhilaration and euphoria. If used in even higher doses, heart rate increases, body temperature can rise to very dangerous levels, and the user can become paranoid, agitated and exhibit very bizarre and risky behavior. It's at these high doses that overdose and death occur.

 

* Addiction - Some experts say that it is impossible not to become addicted to crystal meth. Some studies have shown that 9 out of 10 people who inject crystal meth just once will become addicted. While those who smoke crystal meth take longer to become addicted, most do and eventually progress to injecting meth. In addition to its ability to addict the user, tolerance also occurs, meaning the user must use higher doses to achieve the same effect. Eventually, the doses are so high that the most dangerous effects such as increased heart rate, severe hyperthermia (high body temperature), paranoia, and stroke occur, eventually resulting in death. Once addicted, kicking the addiction is said to be at most almost impossible and at least extremely difficult and emotionally painful.

 

* Withdrawal - Prolonged use and addiction to crystal meth slowly "burns out" the pleasure senses. The body produces two substances, dopamine and norepinephrine, to stimulate the body. Crystal meth eventually burns out the system that produces these important chemicals. After this occurs, the body can no longer produce the chemicals that stimulate the pleasure senses. Simply put, crystal meth becomes necessary for the user to feel pleasure. After stopping the drug, the person will experience a profound "numbness" and depression because the body can no longer produce the two stimulants necessary to experience pleasure. The depression can become so profound that users trying to stop crystal meth will commit suicide to ease their pain. To make matters worse, addiction relapse is very common. Most people trying to stop will use again once out of rehab. In short, crystal meth takes hold and will not let go.

[Bob]

While I disagree at least in part with tdperhs' notions, there's no need to respond as the first couple of posters did.

 

I'd have no problem with the legalization of some currently illicit drugs - marijuana and some forms of cocaine being two of them - but I can't really believe that anybody would be suggesting that some of the more dangerous drugs (yaba or crystal meth being one of those) ought to be legalized. Meth is a very dangerous drug that too often results in terrible damage to the user and the user's friends and family. It's highly addictive and too often results in the user being totally fucked up and doing physical damage to himself or his loved ones.

 

I've just heard too many stories from Thai friends about yaba-hyped kids committing suicide or yaba-hyped guys hacking their wife and/or children to death to not understand the dangerousness of this drug.

 

I'm not against pleasure or elective fun and I generally believe a government has no right to ban anything unless it's actually dangerous. And yaba is more than dangerous.

[Guest Hedda]

I think that tdperhs is on to something, although I would have cast the issue a little differently.

 

There's a vast difference between having government policies and laws that seek to discourage or limit the use of potentially dangerous drugs by kids or adults, and having laws that makes criminals out of kids who get caught using drugs. We are creating criminals and frequently ruining young lives by turning a social problem into a crime.

 

It's not just the Thais who are making this monumental mistake in addressing the problem. America has been leading the way into this dead end cult of punishment for over a century now, as the "War against Drugs" shows absolutely no signs of success.

 

Prohibition proved that you can't stop people from drinking by banning booze and the same rule applies to drugs. If we don't throw alcoholics in jail for abusing booze, why should drug abusers be treated as criminals ?

[Guest lvdkeyes]

"There's a vast difference between having government policies and laws that seek to limit the use of potentially dangerous drugs by kids or adults, but having laws that makes criminals out of kids who get caught using drugs is self-defeating. We are creating criminals and frequently ruining young lives by turning a social problem into a crime."

 

Granted it is a major social problem, but if there is a law and someone breaks it, doesn't that make them a criminal? We are not creating criminals, the people who break the law are making themselves criminals.

 

To refer to crystal met as "potentially" dangerous is a gross understatement. It has been proven to be a deadly dangerous drug.

[Guest Mark7711]

So sad to read I can sit in a bar and tell when a member of staff starts to use fun to start then it takes over ruins there personality slowly become aggressive end up being booted out of the bar or arrested in a fight in some other late night bar end up with nothing. Some slowly realize what they have done and try to make the change back others are lost forever. The saddest part of running a bar seeing a handsome young man start to earning good money for the first time in there life

[KhorTose]

Thanks, lvdkeyes that is more like it. however a citation would be nice. In your case your information comes from The National Met amphetamine Awareness Campaign. This is a government-sponsored group trying to justify the expense of the war on drugs. There are many things that are very dangerous about meth, but it is no way as harmful as they make out and there in lies the problem. Remember Marijuana Madness, were one puff turns you into an insane sex maniac, while they are doing the same thing with Meth. Consider during the 60s over 50% of the population used one or another kind of upper. Fat you got speed, work nights you got speed, hyperactive you got speed, drive a truck you got speed, etc. We had a lot of heart attacks in obese people who where using meth, benes, dex, ritalin, etc. but no real crime or addiction problems. The German army used meth and the soldiers who returned from the front did not go on to become addicts. The US marines tried meth in simulated combat situations, and found it safe but ineffective for combat purposes. The truth is that meth was not a problem until we made it illegal. Make it illegal and it becomes expensive to buy. Whenever you have something expenses to buy, but cheap to make you create a market and that is what happened with meth. Furthermore by saying such things like one use and you are an addict, you create a non-truth that makes the rest of the truth that you have to tell ineffective. Many people in the gay community use meth and many are far from addicts. Tell a lie and your truths can now be ignored. The truth the casual user who uses a small doses does not have a real problem. Some citations that tell the real dangers of meth:

 

http://chemistry.abo...crystalmeth.htm

 

 

http://www.allpositi...om/APOMeth5.htm

 

 

http://www.disinfo.c.../pg1/index.html

 

 

A great article on meth use compared to other drugs and recovery stats.

 

 

http://www.google.co...f+meth+recovery

 

 

I worked for the VA and they have some great information and stats, but they only publish in journals and they are not on-line for free.

[Guest]

I don't think many drugs should be illegal. I don't think prostitution should be illegal. I don't think anything that one decides to do with their own body that does not hurt someone else should be illegal. It is a matter of personal choice. I believe that whatever 2 consenting adults do is their own fucking business.

 

I personally had had friends and lovers who were addicted to yaba and I hate the drug and I choose not to be around those that do it. That is my choice and it is theirs to choose to continue to do it.

 

I personally know people who hire hookers and are addicted to sex. I can't imagine anyone who would do this so openly and then criticize someone else for breaking another law.

 

Yes, I know there are all levels of criminal activity and one chooses to speed on the freeway, not wear a helmet, drink in a bar after hours, etc.

 

Live and let live. If a bar boy wants to use yaba, that is their choice and I do not think the bar should be punished for this and I don't think testing pee days after should be grounds for jail. At the same time, I have the choice once I know this guys uses yaba to not partake in his service and feed his addition. I have met guys who are the opposite. I have met guys who want their guys fucked up on drugs as it is better sex for them.

 

I was in Brazil many years ago and my live in boyfriend of 5 years was with me. No, he wasn't a hooker. He was a real lover (at least in my mind.) We went to a bar and met a guy and he came to our hotel for the night. The sex was intense and just out of this world. Probably the best 3 way I have ever had. The next AM after the boy left, the BF told me they had both done Xtacy at the club. Stunned and shocked, I had to think about the night. While the sex was amazing and for me one of the best nights of my life, it put that boyfriend on a downhill spiral and ended with Crystal and the break up of our relationship.

 

I abhor drugs. But, I do not care of they are legal for one to use and taxed like any other drug. I would love to see the marijuana revenue from California solve the budget crisis. I would love to see all those in the USA in prison for drug use (not distribution) be released and my tax dollars go somewhere else.

 

I understand those of you who want punishment for drugs use. I am not one of them. I also am not one who wants to be around someone who uses those drugs. But, I don't think the legal ramifications will ever work in Thailand or any other country and we need a new way to approach the problems in society that lead to the abuse.

 

Sorry for the incoherent rambling. I am not drunk or high. Imagine if I were how much more I could have rambled.

[KhorTose]

So sad to read I can sit in a bar and tell when a member of staff starts to use fun to start then it takes over ruins there personality slowly become aggressive end up being booted out of the bar or arrested in a fight in some other late night bar end up with nothing. Some slowly realize what they have done and try to make the change back others are lost forever. The saddest part of running a bar seeing a handsome young man start to earning good money for the first time in there life's then slowly wasting it all on drugs. Yabba is the curse of Thailand.

 

Mark

 

Been there and seen that Mark and I know the pain it causes you. I too have felt that pain, but I think poverty is the real curse of Thailand. Look at the far greater number who drink to much. Yabba has nothing to do with that.

[Guest Mark7711]

One more positive point I have visited the young offenders unit where the boys are placed when arrested for drugs.

To my surprise they are treated quite well have access to drug counseling, social workers and several other counseling services offered which real did surprise my I thought they just locked them up and let them do their time.

[Guest]

Been there and seen that Mark and I know the pain it causes you. I too have felt that pain, but I think poverty is the real curse of Thailand. Look at the far greater number who drink to much. Yabba has nothing to do with that.

 

Regardless of what people think, the bar business takes a toll on a boy. It is not an easy job and often they compensate for what they do by doing drugs or drinking. Some really do love the job but they are few and far between. The majority do it because they have few choices.

 

Having been in the business in NYC, I can tell you that it is the same everywhere. Some rare exceptions do "escorting" because they like it. The vast majority do it as a means of survival or as a way to propel themselves and their family in a new direction.

[Guest]

One more positive point I have visited the young offenders unit where the boys are placed when arrested for drugs.

To my surprise they are treated quite well have access to drug counseling, social workers and several other counseling services offered which real did surprise my I thought they just locked them up and let them do their time.

 

Mark, I am very impressed with this statement. Thank you for sharing that! It does help me to look at the system in Thailand in a different way.

[Guest Mark7711]

Been there and seen that Mark and I know the pain it causes you. I too have felt that pain, but I think poverty is the real curse of Thailand. Look at the far greater number who drink to much. Yabba has nothing to do with that.

 

I agree with you, one thing I find hard is having lived in Africa for 15 years I think many Thais don

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I am not going to debate my position on drugs; rather to let the statistics speak for themselves.

[Guest Hedda]

Granted it is a major social problem, but if there is a law and someone breaks it, doesn't that make them a criminal?

 

Not unless the people passing the law provide for criminal penalties and then choose to enforce them. There are thousands of laws on the books which, if broken, do not result in going to jail.

 

There was a time when people went to jail for not paying their debts. Most advanced societies concluded centuries ago that "debtor's prisons" were a bad idea. Some European countries have now reached a point where they see "addict prisons" in much the same way.

 

I wonder if you'd feel the same way about the issue if you were leaving a gogo bar with a boy and some Thai cop arrested you for aiding and abetting prostitution, which is, after all, illegal. Would you feel like you and the boy deserved to be branded criminals and sent off to jail ?

[Gaybutton]

My major objection to drug use is not the drug use in and of itself. If people really want to dope themselves up on drugs, as far as I'm concerned that's their choice. My objection to drug use is the criminal activity it leads to. Not too many years ago I felt perfectly safe anywhere in Pattaya at any time of day. Now I don't even feel 100% safe in my own home. I've made modifications to my home so that a burglar would need a tank to break in.

 

But street crime is rapidly on the rise . . . bag snatchings, armed and strong-arm robberies, armed gangs, pickpockets, scam artists, and so on. An awful lot of it is attributable to drug addicts trying to get the money to buy their next fix. That's where my objection is.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Not unless the people passing the law provide for criminal penalties and then choose to enforce them. There are thousands of laws on the books which, if broken, do not result in going to jail.

In the context of the discussion, there are laws and penalties and they are being enforced, so that makes the perpetrator a criminal.

[KhorTose]

I am not going to debate my position on drugs; rather to let the statistics speak for themselves.

 

 

I did publish the real statistics in my last citation. What you are really saving is that you will believe what you want to believe. So be it, hope I am around when you finally achieve victory in your war on drugs. So far, the results of your 80 year war are not positive.

 

 

TO YHE WHOLE BOARD. TRaveling to LOS, see you in 4 or 5 days.

[Guest]

TO YHE WHOLE BOARD. TRaveling to LOS, see you in 4 or 5 days.

 

Yeah!!!!

 

I know when I get ready for the trip, I am so excited! Have a safe flight!

[PattayaMale]

MMy objection to drug use is the criminal activity it leads to.

I agree with GB's major objection. I have a few friends (farangs) that use illegal drugs. A couple of these friends even had farang lovers when they moved to Pattaya. The use of these illegal drugs affected their relationship. It seems that the stories are the same. One of them started to do bizarre things. One become very paranoid.

 

If drugs, even legal things like alcohol, become a major problem for a person, what is done then and by who? This problem is so complex.

 

Unfortunately for some that can handle illegal drugs, they are unduly subjected to laws that are meant to protect those that can't handle illegal drugs. This issue is not just free choice. For some, the free choice vanishes, and it leads to the major problem GB objects too.

 

Many laws seem to be made to protect the exceptions. Maybe it is easier to pass that kind of law.

 

I also don't understand the "magic number" that is used in different laws. Why is the "legal" drinking age 21, or 20, or 18, or 16? Same with sex. Why is age in some places different for gay sex and straight sex? Why is it legal in some places at 14, other places 16, 18, 20, 21, unless someone receives renumeration? What are these magic numbers based on?