When is a Lie ENOUGH to move forward?

[Gaybutton]

The question now becomes do I take the advice I have given so many others over the years or do I give another second chance? The jury is still out.

You know what happens when you give a second chance? You end up giving a third chance. Then a fourth and a fifth chance.

[Guest Oogleman]

give him a percent of his allowance (up to you) and tell him you need a break from him for a while. Say a month? See how you feel at the end of that month.

 

Can you avoid seeing him in the area you stay? or would you have to send him home?

[Guest HeyGay]

I think your using this motor bike incident as a catalyst of another problem, I have gone into before here, you know you have come to the end of the road, with this guy, he is with you, but you are feeling more and more he does not really want to be now, may be before, but now you feel you need to let him go and leave you even though your be alone.

 

But hell you are in Thailand and you love to have a guy you have feelings for, that will be returned, but as I tell many guys, don't let the feelings you have for str8 boys, mixed up with a loving relationship you could have with a gay guy or lady, with this boy you have paternal feelings, taking the place of the son, you have not had, he knows it, Thai boys especially know exactly how to tune into them. and make you think its a love affair, but alas your kidding yourself. It comes natually to them, they dont have to con you.

 

Forget the motor bike incident, just think how would you feel then, its love you really want or more attention, you can respnd to and have returned. not a dead body who is just there and only speaks when you ask him something

 

So the things you have to take into account are:-

A) Do you keep him as a friend or Companion, to organize anything to speak Thai with people and be your assistant. or mamasam.

 

Do you start to see less of him and look for a new guy, like trading in your old car for a new one, with all the whistles and flutes and the latest gadgets.

 

c) Do you just give him a golden hand shake and or get him a small business, so he can make a living, in stead of hanging around you, an no doubt playing Computer games, the very thing that is slowly sending you mad, I bet, as they look into the screen, they don't even notice you exist.

 

Sorry for being so blunt, but as you know been there done that?

[Guest rainwalker]

Let me weigh in with some faux pearls of wisdom...

 

Here's the deal: He made you feel unvalued and he should have know better than to take advantage of you without your permission.

 

You have indulged him before but that was a decision that you made even though he might have shot you that cute puppy-dog look to move you in that direction.

 

Let me ask this...

 

Did you expect that he would never disappoint you? If so, you are a romantic.

 

Sooner or later, everyone disappoints and if you like his company, then what is the remedial action you can take that allows the situation to continue while showing your displeasure in a meaningful way and getting satisfaction for his transgression?

 

"Is this the mountain that you want the relationship to die on?" is the real question.

 

So, from the cheap seats, let me suggest this...

 

You explain things to him in terms of kreng jai and how respect and face are important to you. Tell him you want things to continue with him but the big dog has to be fed.

 

Then let him suggest ways to make it right, and leading him to something you can live with which allows him to save face as much as possible which is a very Thai position.

 

I think that, ideally, he pays you back for it in large-ish chunks over the next few months from a reduced stipend that you pay him. You cut his pay and deduct from the balance.

 

That might be both a punishment by a reduced salary and reparations via the 4? month payback.

 

This allows him to save some face by remaining in your good graces and holding continued employment and rubbing his face in it by reducing the stipend and teaching him that fair is fair by paying you back.

 

He'll never earn as much nor will he have as easy a job as you've given him.

 

He is a delightful guy, you enjoy his company, and you still like him while not being thrilled with his actions so go with it, see what you both can contribute to a mutually advantageous situation.

 

Chok dee, na khrap.

[Guest HeyGay]

Well that is wonderful advice Rainwalker, its great that any one can come here and receive an unbiased opinion on a big problem in there life, that we can all help with, after all we could all be in the same boat, in different ways, being Gay.

 

I must say GT it takes a real man to put your problems on this open forum and not put your head in the sand as some do, thinking the problem will go away or no one knows the truth, we all respect you for your forthright Honesty, Good Luck, no matter what steps you take, to solve this small Hic up, I'm sure your be happy with the answer

[Bob]

Puzzling and bothersome to me.

 

GT, you're a decent and intelligent guy (we don't know each other personally but that's what I've gathered from reading your posts over the years) and I start out my comments that way so you're not too personally offended by my next comments. With that preamble, I'm still going to say how I honestly reacted to your post.

 

What bothers me is you lay out part of a totally private scenario on a public internet board and essentially ask strangers to provide advice or comments to help you decide what to do with your private life. I recognize you have the right to do that but, good lord, man, you're a mature and intelligent guy and I simply don't understand why you felt the need to seek the advice here. I couldn't possibly know enough about the relationship to give any intelligent advice to you about it and, frankly, I'd feel rather idiotic suggesting to another guy about my age what he ought to do with his private sexual relationships.

 

Regardless of that, all I can say is "chok dee."

[Guest HeyGay]

That where your wrong, some of us do know the background to his problems and if you had been keeping watch, you would also know half the problem, from his posts here, I would think this would be the very place to air your problems, as many guys here, have had the very same problems and sorted them out, knowing the end results and the answers.

 

Hhere do you suggest he goes, to see a wacky psychologist or Dave the local sex counsellor, who cant get his own life sorted out, let alone advice any one else.

 

 

[Bob]

Hhere do you suggest he goes, to see a wacky psychologist or Dave the local sex counsellor, who cant get his own life sorted out, let alone advice any one else.

 

I've read all the posts you've read and I don't believe I'm knowledgeable enough to give any advice (even if I was inclined to do so - and I'm not).

 

You ask what I suggest he does? I don't. I'll leave that to GT and his personal wisdom as he's in the best position to make choices acceptable to him. And I'll wish him well.

 

And that makes me "wrong?" Fine by me.

[Guest]

Bob, I was honestly just seeking input and different approaches I had not considered. I was given many I didn't think of.

 

1. I know I'll have a conversation with him regarding the bike and explain in great detail how this will cause a lack of trust in many areas.

 

2. I know my 2k week deduction is not sufficient to make my point to him. Most likely, I'll end up making this a great deal more and getting the money back from the bike in a shorter period.

 

3. Anytime I have a problem with any guys I am with I ALWAYS give a buyout plan. I had several boys once that sat around a table and I offered them each 10k to just move out and remain friends. No one took it. I then upped it to 20k. Several of the boys took it and moved on. I remain friends with them today. The BF and one other boy declined. After the other boys had left, I offered double the money. They still remained and I asked why. They said, "we are not stupid, we know you will give us that in a month or two." They were not thinking only about today but the future. The BF is that smart guy who has seen me go through many guys in LOS and always remains as he knows that I'll snap out of the anger soon and it will be back to business as usual.

 

4. As Rainwalker said, "sooner or later everyone disappoints you." I need to think on this as I know his guy very well and knew what he would likely do. I just had high hopes and dreams of something different. Stupid. Very stupid.

 

5. I may also take a sabbatical from him and let him spend some time away.

 

Bob, I'm not trying to air my sexual life on the line. I didn't say this lad was the best sex I ever have. I just asked for advice on different ways to approach it as well as to get other reactions to how they would feel. I got that. I know now. It did help. I do not mind sharing some personal information about myself on a board. I never have and I never will. I try to stay within limits that I am comfortable with. I am sorry if that detail bothers some. It doesn't bother me. I am not embarrassed by the situation. It is part of day to day life here in LOS and hopefully someone reading this will think about all the responses when they are faced with something similar.

 

I think of one very good friend who I told over and over to move on from his "lover" as he was always lying. He did not heed my advice for years. We do that when we are ready to do it. Not really before. I don't know that I am ready to move ahead without this guy. I'll know more when I see him.

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

Sorry Xian, but you are way off the mark. GT's original posting regarding this was:

 

"I had a motorcycle that I gave to him to keep for me in January. He said he would take care of it and it would be ready for me when I needed it."

 

This clearly was not a gift to buy affection or even a gift at all.

 

Thank you for pointing this out, Lvdkeyes. I was thinking of the other bikes he'd already given him.

 

My sincere apologies to GT.

[Bob]

No need to explain to me, GT, and, yes, I accepted you were being honest about it. As was I with my feelings about it.

 

Wish you well in making your choices, whatever they may be.

 

In another couple of months, I'll have been in a 10-year relationship with a Chiangmai boy (well, if one considers a 31-year-old man a boy) and it's been a joy/pain-in-the-ass/friendship/struggle as probably many other relationships are. Part of the fun and stuggle, I suppose, is that we're both a lot a like (equally stubborn, that's for sure) and, of course, we're both different as hell. But - and I suspect like you - I wouldn't regret a minute even if it ended tomorrow.

 

Speaking of ending, I have to go chat on MSN with the joy/pain-in-the-ass for the next hour or two......

[Gaybutton]

No need to explain to me, GT, and, yes, I accepted you were being honest about it. As was I with my feelings about it.

I don't know how others feel about it, but for me this thread is one of the most significant we have ever had on this board. When GT wrote, "I think of one very good friend who I told over and over to move on from his 'lover' as he was always lying. He did not heed my advice for years. We do that when we are ready to do it. Not really before," he could very well have been referring to me. Maybe I am the one about whom he was referring.

 

I was being lied to, and every one of my friends could see it but me. In retrospect I think I saw it just as clearly as everyone else, but my problem was refusing to accept it. It took a long time, too long really, for me to finally realize that I had to break away or let that person ruin my life. It came down to those two choices. To this very day it is still a struggle for me, and I'm not sure I was ever truly ready to end it, but nevertheless I knew it had to be done. I learned the hard way to put my emotions aside and think with my head. But that's not always easy. To this day I still feel terribly guilty about breaking it off with him, and I know damned well I have nothing at all I should feel guilty about. Welcome to human emotions.

 

That person is out of my life, but he'll never be out of my heart, no matter how hard I try, even with the knowledge that he had become tantamount to a cancer on my life.

 

One of the easiest things in the world is to give someone else advice. One of the most difficult things is to take it.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

We stay in a relationship, good or bad, because we are getting something out of it, again, good or bad. When we cease to get that something we end it. No one can decide for anyone else when they should end a relationship. My original post regarding GT's dilemma was telling of my experiences with liars. In the past, whenever I have ignored the first lie, they continued and got more and more damaging. Twice in my life it led to severe depression which required counseling to get out of. In counseling I gained a lot of insight into myself. Now, I jump ship at the first lie, however inconsequential it may seem.

[Guest]

I'll have more to add about the end result of our LONG conversation as we just finished talking. I told him about this thread and he asked that I post a photo of his 150 cc Modified.

 

Turns out I was right about the Nouvo, it was sold and not modified. That story to follow when I have time.

 

In the meantime, here is the Honda 150 I bought for him and he modified for racing.

[Guest Geezer]

As Rainwalker said, "sooner or later everyone disappoints you."

 

Balderdash.

 

Anyone whose experiences really lead them to believe that has problems.

[Gaybutton]

Now, I jump ship at the first lie, however inconsequential it may seem.

I do the same. For me it doesn't even have to be a lie. A "red light" is enough for me. I learned the hard way too. Maybe I'm going to the other extreme now, but I have become a believer in the Richard Burk (owner of the Amor Restaurant) Philosophy: "If you want love in Thailand, rent it." For the present, that's the way I feel. Maybe some day that will change. I don't reject anything, but I have definitely become very cautious, perhaps over cautious.

 

That is balderdash.

In your case, yes. But you know as well as I do that you are one of the extremely rare exceptions and one of the luckiest men in Thailand. I wish your luck could apply to all, but it just doesn't seem to work that way for very many of us.

[Guest]

Balderdash.

 

Anyone whose experiences really lead them to believe that has problems.

 

I believe this to be accurate when the relationship started with money. I have friends that have NEVER disappointed me but those are lifelong friends and based on things other than sex. But, when you are dealing with guys who get paid for money, they have to calculate every answer they give you based on all the possible outcomes. The ones that are really great, answer right most of the time. Sometimes, they get one wrong. IMHO

[Guest rainwalker]

Actually, it is not balderdash..

 

Anytime you have an expectation however small, you run the risk of having it unfulfilled and if you have expectations of other people's behavior and we all do, over time they will disappoint you.

 

Anytime two people with free will interact over a longish period, one of them, or both, will not live up to what is expected, however unrealistic, by the other person.

 

It is not necessarily a big deal and it is not a criticism of the other person, it is simply human nature.

 

Even Buddhism embraces the disappointment when they talk about the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha)...

 

"This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."

 

I'm celebrating my 23rd anniversary next week and my partner and I were talking, a few days ago, about why we are "one" after all these years and all the challenges we have faced.

 

He said he thought it was because we are able to forgive each other for being human.

 

I think expectation and disappointment are part of our lives as are joy, redemption, and forgiveness.

 

"Life is change; how different from the rocks...." Jefferson Airplane, Crown of Creation.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQU24a9hAaU

[PattayaMale]

I'll have more to add about the end result of our LONG conversation as we just finished talking. I told him about this thread and he asked that I post a photo of his 150 cc Modified.

 

Turns out I was right about the Nouvo, it was sold and not modified. That story to follow when I have time.

 

In the meantime, here is the Honda 150 I bought for him and he modified for racing.

 

Take a look at the Kawasaki dealer on Suhkumvit in Pattaya. They have some nice new bikes at great prices, on road and off road.

 

I bought one for my Thai friend. First thing he thought of was "decorating it". Same thing with his truck. He wanted new tires, Carryboy, etc. Maybe this is a Thai gene.

 

When I get something new, my mind can not understand this "decorating" thing.

 

Thank God he knows what no means in English!!! (He says it means "ok, maybe later")

[Guest Geezer]

Balderdash: senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.

 

The statement made was “Sooner or later, everyone disappoints...

[Guest]

In all the years he has been with me he hasn't lied to me. That is what kept me going. I knew this motorcycle was going to be an issue when it wasn't here a month ago. I kept postponing and waiting for an honest answer. When he finally admitted that it was modified and he would buy me a new one I also knew that was a lie. I needed to think on it.

 

When he came home today from school I sat him down and we chatted. I told him that I always brag to my friends that he never lies to me and that is the main reason I have stayed with him for all these years. I then asked him if there was anything he wanted to share with me. Yes, he said. "I took home girl from Karoke this week." I said OK no problem as I have always said that was OK. I asked anything else that I need to know. He looked at me and said he had something he wanted to tell me for months and was scared to tell me. I asked what and he said it was about the Nouvo. I said OK tell me. He said that he got into an accident months ago and he sold it. It was in his name actually. He said the intent was to buy a new one and I would never know. I tried to make him see how that game was even worse than selling it in the first place.

 

I will give him another chance. Yes, Gaybutton, I ignore my own advice to everyone I speak to. He is on thin ice and he knows it. I told him I would take 5k a week from his salary until a new one was bought. I told him I thought about the 2k a week but that it didn't get the result I wanted which was to make him see how important this was to me. He agreed to the lower salary and with tears apologized. I told him I would never lie to him and I won't. He asked what I did this weekend when he was away and then he smiled. I said do you really want to know? He smiled and said, "as much as you wanted to know about Nouvo." I said, I went to a a bar and I took home a boy. He smiled and said, "you forget to tell me you went to massage as well." I smiled and said, "oh, yeah that too." I had forgotten honestly. He said, "Ok, I deduct one BJ from you this week." I smiled and said, that is why you are number 1 kid!

[Gaybutton]

I told him I would take 5k a week from his salary

5k a week!?!?! How on earth much do you normally give this boy?

[Guest rainwalker]

Geezer said:

 

Balderdash: senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.

 

The statement made was

[Bob]

5k a week!?!?! How on earth much do you normally give this boy?

 

Rather shocked me too. I understand that the average Thai grosses around 6k per month!

 

But, to each his own. It's always bothered me when some have criticized others for paying too much to the boys, almost with the notion that they are "ruining it" for others. I don't buy that and, if you're able to give, give what you want.

 

But, if I was a young and good looking Thai man, I'd park my ass at the airport until GT showed up and then start a waggin' it....hehe.

[Guest alaan]

I find 'Rainwalkers' responses to 'Geezer' to be a tad patronising...

 

I simply do not accept the claim that sooner or later EVERYONE disappoints you.

 

Just because YOU Rainwalker, have expectations in your life of others who then sooner or later disappoint you doesn't mean everybody has the same outlook as you...Indeed why does one need or HAVE to have expectations of EVERYBODY? why not just accept some things or some people for what they are ...if you create expectations that is up to you.....and in that case you may very well be disappointed every time......but you will have brought that on by yourself.

 

Nor do I agree that a more optimistic outlook in life or a belief that not "EVERYONE is going to disappoint eventually" mean that anyone with an opinion that differs from you are living in any kind of 'fools paradise'.....

 

I also find the quoting of some Buddah teaching to back up your belief/arguement to be irrelevant....you've made some kind of bland generalisation...what, exactly has "the noble truth of suffering" got to do with believing that everyone eventually disappoints or not..One would think that by dragging Buddah into your arguement that you are simply attempting to impress.

 

I would hate to think that my world was coloured only with setting 'expectations' at everything/everyone in my life rather than just accepting some things,some situations and some people for what they are....I certainly would not want to weigh down my outlook in life by 'setting expectations' in the areas where none need to exist.

 

Your rather arrogant assertion that you "absolutely know" Geezer agrees with you "deep down" is bad enough but you go on to insinuate that if he does not agree with you he would then in some way be dishonest by not acknowledging that "fact".

 

Feel free to 'set sail' to as many disappointments that YOU want.... but don't expect or indeed insist that everybody else joins you on all of your voyages...... 'tongue in cheek' or not....I for one am not going to be press-ganged onto the ss.pessimistic.

 

And yes a bit surprised at Gaythailand 'salary' levels......at first I just assumed he had put week instead of month....dropping Bt5,000 per week from what to what? But on saying that I agree one should support or pay the level you feel your friend or boyfriend or part-time boyfriend is worth to you.