Raid at Villa Rouge

[Gaybutton]

So it is not cost prohibitive as stated by some posters. It is more the ethical practice of some bar owners vs. the unethical ones. Just as I suspected.

Your idea of what is and is not cost prohibitive is a little different from mine. If it costs Mark 1000 baht per month to test 10 boys, that means 100 baht per employee tested. He tests 10 at random. Considering the number of employees in the average bar, then if all of them were tested once or twice per month, now the cost of those tests are running into hundreds of dollars. That sure seems cost prohibitive to me. I don't visualize very many bar owners voluntarily coughing up anywhere near as much as that, and I don't think they should have to in the first place.

 

Considering the number of boys who do abuse drugs, then I would agree that they should be tested, but I don't agree that the bars should be the ones to foot the bill for it. I believe the police should supply the drug test kits.

 

Between lack of customers, normal business operating costs, paying off corrupt police, etc, if you start adding drug tests to the cost of running a bar, then soon there won't be very many bars.

[Bob]

Thanks, Mark, for the information - and I still acknowledge that you had no obligation at all to lay out that information here. Your efforts are commendable.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I am not sure you (GB) understand random testing. It doesn't mean you test every boy twice a month. You just monthly, on no specific day, test 10 boys whose names might be drawn from a hat or picked eenie meenie minee mo. That way the cost would be 1000 baht a month, certainly not cost prohibitive.

[Gaybutton]

I am not sure you (GB) understand random testing.

I understand perfectly. I just don't agree with your argument. Yes, random testing is not cost prohibitive and that's what Mark does at Krazy Dragon. But considering the number of boys arrested throughout Sunee Plaza every time there's a raid, I don't think random testing at one bar has much chance of improving anything. Even so, I don't see why Mark should have to pay a single baht to test boys over whom he has no control during their non-working hours. He chooses to do some testing, and I certainly compliment him for that, but unless the other bars start doing the same thing or start testing them all, then I think he's fighting a losing battle and in the end it's an exercise in futility.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I believe I did say in an earlier post that all the bar owners need to cooperate if it is going to be effective. If the boys know that at any time they can be tested and lose work if they test positive and if all the bar owners are serious about fixing the problem, it can be accomplished. It is very easy for people to say "it can't be done", but it can and should be. If the bar owners shouldn't pay to have their boys tested, who do you propose will pay for it? Would you suggest it continue as it is and let the police pay for it and let the arrests and bad publicity continue?

[Gaybutton]

If the bar owners shouldn't pay to have their boys tested, who do you propose will pay for it?

We're close to being agreed. This is the only area at which we still disagree. I think law enforcement officials should have to supply the test materials. But no matter who pays for it, I don't think the bars should be held responsible, financially or otherwise, any more than any other kind of business should be held responsible. To me, if the bars have to pay to start drug testing their employees, then every business in town should have to do the same thing. It would be hard to convince me that the only businesses in town that have drug users on their staff are bars. I don't see anyone trying to get other kinds of establishments to drug test their employees at their own expense. Why should bars be singled out as an exception?

 

I'm all for drug testing. I all opposed to the bars having to foot the bill for it.

[Guest Mark7711]

I would like to answer a few points raised with the last posts:

 

First of all I am no saint and don’t test the boys for the fun of it. 2 years ago the bar was raided. 3 boys failed the drugs test. The next day a police officer came with a 90 day closure order, which I refused to sign. He said that I was responsible for the boys having drugs in their system and inferred I allowed the drugs to be smoked on the premises. As I refused to sign the closure order it went to court.

 

On my first meeting with a lawyer he made it quite clear to me that I had a legal obligation under Thai law to prove I was trying to prevent drug users being employed under the health and safety act at work.

 

I lost the court case and paid a 40.000bht fine as well as 50.000bht layers fees, but was allowed to remain open. After losing the case they could have imposed the 90 day closure order as well.

 

Some police officers thought I had been unfairly treated or singled out, but that’s life. So I now do the necessary tests which, by the way, nobody still has ever clarified how many staff should be tested or how often, so I am still open to being caught out again if they wish.

 

But let’s be honest about this. Any reasonable bar owner should have a good idea which staff need testing. It’s not hard to spot if you want to spot it.

 

Test kits can be bought a lot cheaper if you buy them in quantities of 100+. I prefer to buy them at the local pharmacy so that I have a date till recipes for the kits match the day the test takes place.

 

Mark.

[Guest]

Ideally it should be none of the employers damn business if an employee takes drugs in his own time, as long as he is fit to do the job to the required standard doing working hours.

Obviously if the job involves something like flying a passenger aircraft, then drug testing would be the responsible thing to do.

[Gaybutton]

Ideally it should be none of the employers damn business if an employee takes drugs in his own time

I agree. Mark has given us a lesson in Thai law. For whatever bizarre reasons, apparently under the law he has to at least show evidence that he is making a reasonable effort to prevent drug use from taking place at his establishment and apparently he has to do so at his own expense. I doubt the law would stand up under most western court systems because, the way I read what Mark is saying, there are no guidelines for him to follow. What he is doing may be enough. Also, maybe it isn't. What's more, what may be enough this week might not be enough next week. Apparently 'probable cause' doesn't enter the picture at all.

 

The whole situation makes very little sense to me. He has no way to know if a Thai court would consider what he is doing to be enough, and it would cost him plenty if he ever again has to find out. It even seems as if you would have to be lucky enough to get the right judge. Apparently, the whole thing is without guidelines, which makes the outcome dependent on the whim of each individual judge.

 

If nothing else, Mark's post seems to me to rule out the notion that bars would intentionally drug the boys.

 

He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If any of the boys show a positive drug test result, then bar owners like Mark are going to get a visit from the police and have to face the decision of complying with a 90-day closure order or go to court. It must be like trying to decide whether to jump into boiling water or jump into boiling oil.

 

Mark, if you're reading this now we know what happens to you. What happens to the boys who fail drug tests administered by the police when they raid?

[Guest fountainhall]

Ideally it should be none of the employers damn business if an employee takes drugs in his own time, as long as he is fit to do the job to the required standard doing working hours

 

In principle, I agree. However - and you do say "ideally" - since it is against the law for barboys to be 'discovered' having taken drugs and drugs often remain in the system for some time after their effect has worn off, I don't think standing on principle has much merit when such activity may directly threaten the employer with considerable penalties.

[Guest Mark7711]

Mark, if you're reading this now we know what happens to you. What happens to the boys who fail drug tests administered by the police when they raid?

7 Days community service, as I stood guarantee they would not run away from Pattaya, which they did not.

[Gaybutton]

7 Days community service, as I stood guarantee they would not run away from Pattaya, which they did not.

Incredible! You, who had no way of controlling what the boys did during non-working hours, face a 90-day closure or face going to court and a large fine. But the boys who actually used the drugs have to spend a week sweeping the streets or collecting garbage or something. It doesn't seem fair to me. And you had to guarantee they wouldn't run away, something else you can't really control.

[PattayaMale]

I can understand the idea for making bar owners responsible here in Thailand, even though it seems unfair. I am guessing but I imagine that the law was made in an effort to put pressure on the employees (through the employer). If the bar has to close, employees are out of work, they can not make money so peer pressure maybe applied to stop drug using employees.

 

To many of our western trained minds, this may seem wrong. In the US we have the highest number of drug prisoners in the world (I think). It costs billions of dollars.

 

Thailand does not have the same system. How else should it be handled? This has been a tough issue to solve. But what would other members suggest?

[KhorTose]

Thailand does not have the same system. How else should it be handled? This has been a tough issue to solve. But what would other members suggest?

 

Good question. After thinking about it for awhile the answer that I like, would be to take the burden off the bar owners and put it on the boys. After testing positive three times for drugs, I would put some kind of marker on a boys ID, and make sure it is recorded, and he would never be allowed to work in a bar again. The down side of this approach is that the cops could not extort tea money anymore from the owners.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Previously, I suggest that the SECOND time a boy tests positive for drugs he be fired and all the other bar owners be notified. I still stand by that concept.

[Guest lester1]

I think,lvd, that the emphasis is on the word 'concept'. As a possible working, practical idea, it is a complete no-no. Firstly, I suspect that most farang bar owners have no idea whatsoever as to the full Thai names of their employees. This is what they would need if they followed through with your idea to 'inform other bar owners'.Which bar owners? Both Sunee and Boy's Town? Does it apply just to the flesh on stage, or are you including bar staff? What about informing bars that are not gogo bars or are restaurants? Where do you stop, or even start?

I am not even convinced about the laws that Mark quoted about the need to promote a health and safety at work program. There are two types of law in Thailand. Those that can be used to hit bar owners over the head with in order to intimidate and extract money , and those that really matter.This smacks of the former, just like the brilliantly orchestrated one about CCTV cameras.

[khaolakguy]

I agree. Mark has given us a lesson in Thai law. For whatever bizarre reasons, apparently under the law he has to at least show evidence that he is making a reasonable effort to prevent drug use from taking place at his establishment and apparently he has to do so at his own expense. I doubt the law would stand up under most western court systems because, the way I read what Mark is saying, there are no guidelines for him to follow. What he is doing may be enough. Also, maybe it isn't.

 

I don't understand why this should be thought bizarre, or that the guidance is somehow inferior to Western practice.

 

Employers have a duty of care to their employees, in Thailand as in the West. What is a reasonable standard of care is not clearly defined with absolute guidelines. The law is defined by common practice, and what would seem reasonable to the average person.

[Gaybutton]

Firstly, I suspect that most farang bar owners have no idea whatsoever as to the full Thai names of their employees.

Thai law requires the bars to keep copies of each employee's ID card on file.

 

I don't understand why this should be thought bizarre, or that the guidance is somehow inferior to Western practice.

The bizarre part, in my opinion, is that no guidelines of any kind are provided for the bar owners to follow. Mark, along with every other bar owner, has to simply guess as to what is acceptable to the police and the Thai courts. That is why I think it is bizarre and why it would never hold up under most western court systems. In other words, whatever Mark or other bar owners can be held liable for is simply up to the whim of the police.

[khaolakguy]

Firstly, as Mark acknowledged, in the original case he had employees who were found to be on drugs, and he could not demonstrate any process of checking/discouraging drug use among his staff, and was therefore in breach of his responsibilities as owner. In the two years since he has implemented a policy of monitoring staff, and has therefore been complying with the law and has not had a problem.

 

Secondly, as Mark was entitled to, he had his case tried in Court, which found him guilty, and decided on the punishment, not "the whim of the police".

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Firstly, I suspect that most farang bar owners have no idea whatsoever as to the full Thai names of their employees. This is what they would need if they followed through with your idea to 'inform other bar owners'.Which bar owners? Both Sunee and Boy's Town? Does it apply just to the flesh on stage, or are you including bar staff? What about informing bars that are not gogo bars or are restaurants? Where do you stop, or even start?

I am not even convinced about the laws that Mark quoted about the need to promote a health and safety at work program. There are two types of law in Thailand. Those that can be used to hit bar owners over the head with in order to intimidate and extract money , and those that really matter.This smacks of the former, just like the brilliantly orchestrated one about CCTV cameras.

GB answered your comment regarding the boy's names. Which bars owners? ALL of the bars which are usually subjected to raids, i.e. go go bars in Sunee, Boyztown and Jomtien Complex. It applies to all the employees of these bars. GB also clarified your misunderstand regarding Thai laws. You start with the most vulnerable businesses.

[Gaybutton]

Secondly, as Mark was entitled to, he had his case tried in Court, which found him guilty, and decided on the punishment, not "the whim of the police".

You see it one way. I see it another. In my opinion it was the whim of the police. That's what instigated his going to court in the first place.

 

However, I don't think that's the point. The point I'm trying to make is there are no specific guidelines for the bars to follow. Yes, Mark has not had that problem recur, but it could happen again at any time. Without guidelines the police can simply tell him that what he's doing isn't good enough.

[Guest koeninthailand]

GB answered your comment regarding the boy's names. Which bars owners? ALL of the bars which are usually subjected to raids, i.e. go go bars in Sunee, Boyztown and Jomtien Complex. It applies to all the employees of these bars. GB also clarified your misunderstand regarding Thai laws. You start with the most vulnerable businesses.

 

 

The raid was not only for boys using "drugs' but also for under age workers so the boys using drug you all try to 'ban' them from work shame on them.... even if it would be like a one time experience not one of the farang customers has smoked something when he was young ... but what about those farang bar owners who persist having under age staff

why no ban on going to those bars they are the one responsible for all this negative publicity on Sunnee Plaze They are it seems already banned on that new webside from Sunnee Plaze at expelled from activities organised by the other bar owners

a good start for trying to make Sunne Plaza into a nice place

[Guest lvdkeyes]

We were talking about drugs, but now do you want to know my views on bars with underage boys? I think the FIRST offense should have the bar owner deported. Simple!!!!!

[payless]

A way for bars to reduce screening costs for drugs is to observe which boys flee when there is an alert out about police raiding bars.

I was in a table-top bar when there was a warning that the police were raiding a bar in the next soi. The boy sitting with me jumped up and put on street clothes and was out the door along with a few other boys in seconds. It was nothing personal as far as I could tell as he was back 20 minutes later when the scare was over. He told me he was scared of a pee test because of yaba.

This occurred on the first organized Sunee Plaza party night.

 

I personally have no problem with boys taking yaba and I think koeninthailand is right in saying that many of us have taken something at some time. I do object if any bar owner or bar manager is making yaba available to them free so that they become dependent on that bar. It seems too much of a coincidence that any bar with frequent raids and frequent occurrences of underage yabah consuming boys being taken away is not doing something on the dark side. Of course I am not inferring that this happens in Sunee Plaza.

[Guest Astrrro]

Any reasonable bar owner should have a good idea which staff need testing. It