Visa-Free Crackdown

[Gaybutton]

Note from GB: We have had a couple of threads already discussing what is about to take place regarding visa runs. The crackdown will apply only to those who come to Thailand under the 30-day 'visa-free' regulations. It does not apply to those holding visas.

 

I believe this article from THE NATION merits a new thread and will make the whole thing clear:

_____

 

Big Impact Expected from Tougher Visa-Free Entry Rules

 

Published on September 16, 2006

 

The days of foreign visitors doing endless "border runs" in order to live - and often work - in Thailand are over, the Immigration Police announced yesterday.

 

The Kingdom will tighten its immigration rules for tourists who exploit visa-free regulations, starting from the end of the month.

 

The move will affect tens of thousands of visitors from 41 countries who have been allowed to stay in Thailand for up to 30 days without a visa - often for many months or years.

 

The 41 visa-exempt countries include Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, France, Germany, Japan and the United States.

 

Tourists have been able to extend their stay by travelling to neighboring countries - Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos and Burma - and returning with a further 30-day entry stamp.

 

But new rules have been issued because an increasing number of tourists have stayed for extended periods - without paying proper amounts of tax. This has also helped them avoid close scrutiny by authorities here and in their homeland. (They don't have to report their address, obtain documents from their embassy, or anything else . . . GB)

 

"We are trying to make it more difficult for bad people to get in," Immigration Police chief Lt General Suwat Thamrongsrisakul said at a press conference yesterday.

 

"I don't think it's going to hurt good people because they can apply for a tourist visa (in their homeland)," he said.

 

The move is expected to have a big impact on the foreign community and some sectors such as teaching and diving, plus places where there are many bars run by foreigners, such as Pattaya and Chiang Mai.

 

From October 1, tourists from the 41 visa-exempt countries may still enter Thailand without visas and stay for up to 30 days, but they will only be able to extend their stay here two times - that is, for a maximum of 90 days.

 

And tourists who stay for 90 days must leave the Kingdom for at least 90 days before being permitted to re-enter Thailand.

 

Suwat denied the crackdown was related to the arrest in Bangkok last month of John Mark Karr, the American teacher who was thought to have been involved in the high-profile JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He said there were many reasons that extended back for a long period.

 

Suwat conceded the move may cause some problems, but said "maybe we have to do something to make it better (later)".

 

However, if foreigners wanted to work here they should get a work visa, he said.

 

A source added: "Under the current rules, people from these countries can stay in Thailand for as long as they want. Some even stay here for one year. Many work illegally in Thailand."

 

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

 

The immigration move is a hot topic among foreign residents, and comes at a time when many are fearful about possible changes in regard to firms with local nominees.

 

Hundreds of comments were logged on local Web boards within hours of the Immigration Department press conference. Some said foreigners should abandon Thailand for neighboring countries, while others predicted it might force school bosses to pay foreign teachers a proper wage or cause a boom in men wanting to marry Thai women.

 

Most believed the move could cost Thailand a small fortune.

 

Meanwhile, plans are under way to simplify the process for foreign teachers to work here as the current system requires 13 separate steps, which take many months to complete.

 

Heads of international schools have been meeting with the Immigration Department to try to simplify the process.

 

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

 

Last year Thailand tightened its immigration rules for South Asian tourists, who were allowed to apply for visas on arrival that permitted them to stay for 30 days. Many of them took advantage by travelling to neighbouring countries and returning to get a new visa on arrival at the airport.

 

Under the new rules, they are allowed to obtain a visa on arrival only twice from neighbouring countries. They are then required to return to their country of origin to obtain an entry visa to Thailand.

 

Jim Pollard

 

The Nation

[Guest wowpow]

I agree that this is one of the clearest articles on the Immigration Police's plans.

 

I do rather object the the terms used about foreigners abusing or exploiting the 30 day rule which came in in 1995.

The Thais wrote the law. When they saw it being used for back to back long stays had the authority to change it without a new law being written. Eleven years later they have.

 

The law caused a lot of confusion regarding the terms, especially the 'onward flight ticket' but this has not been addressed.

 

This new rule looks likely to confuse even further and cause a lot of complex planning.

 

The majority of people likely to be effected are those from neigbouring countries who are in the habit of coming daily or frequently to Thailand to trade or relax and shop. Vast numbers of Malaysians ( the highest number of visitors to Thailand by far) Cambodians, Laotians and Myanmar.

 

As I read it you are allowed two further 30 day visa free entries within 90 days of the first arrival after 31st October. So a Singaporean wanting to spend a couple of weekends in Bangkok will be allowed three within 90 days and then none for 90 days.

 

I wonder if there will be any reaction from countries which allow Thai citizens to visit visa free for 30 days. Many ASEAN countries do that and they were supposed to be moving towards a S E Asia Union.

 

[Gaybutton]

The majority of people likely to be effected are those from neigbouring countries who are in the habit of coming daily or frequently to Thailand to trade or relax and shop. Vast numbers of Malaysians ( the highest number of visitors to Thailand by far) Cambodians, Laotians and Myanmar.

 

As I read it you are allowed two further 30 day visa free entries within 90 days of the first arrival after 31st October. So a Singaporean wanting to spend a couple of weekends in Bangkok will be allowed three within 90 days and then none for 90 days.

 

That is an excellent point. As far as I can tell, a great many new laws and regulations are written and imposed primarily on the whim or "bright idea" of very few people without being completely thought through first. I very rarely hear anything about hearings or solicitation of ideas from the public before the announcement of new rules. Most of the time it seems that they just do it without even an attempt to consider all the ramifications.

 

Many times, after regulations are imposed, public protest follows and the whole thing ends up changing. There are so many examples, the most recent of which was the taxi issue at Suvarnabhumi International Airport. As soon as they realized that forcing people to have to take shuttle buses to catch a taxi would be a big mistake, the rules changed. I don't recall reading about any hearings prior to the announcement that people would have to take shuttle buses to catch a taxi. If there had been hearings as to how things would run at the airport, I doubt that such a regulation would ever have been in the picture at all.

 

I have a feeling that problems with the new 30-day rule, such as the one you brought up, were never considered. If the regulation goes through as the article states, then I don't think it will be very long before the powers-that-be end up saying, "Whoops! Now we have to make some changes."

[Guest PapaDavid]

I believe this article from THE NATION merits a new thread and will make the whole thing clear:

_____

 

"I don't think it's going to hurt good people because they can apply for a tourist visa (in their homeland)," he said.

 

I agree that this is the clearest statement I have seen of the position, which comes into effect on 1 October. It does not affect me much because I only visit twice a year and (apart from one trip) have not stayed more than 30 days.

 

I would like to take issue with one comment in the Immigration statement (highlighted above). Maybe it won't hurt but the whole process is unbelievably time-wasting and laborious:

 

I have applied for a 60 day tourist visa at the Thai Embassy in London twice. The first time it took over four hours queueing and for the visa application to be processed, and even then I had to return two days later to collect my passport. The second time I gave up after waiting in a queue for over two hours. Ever since I have relied on the 30 day visa-exempt tourist entry provisions.

 

As a country which relies heavily on tourism to keep it's economy going, I find the whole visa situation enormously complicated. It seems to be designed to extract as much money as it can from prospective and existing ex-pats and tourists - (but then again this IS Thailand, where everything is governed by greed and corruption).

 

 

[Gaybutton]

Well, PapaDavid, I'm sorry you had so much trouble obtaining the visa. How much trouble there is in obtaining a visa seems to depend on where you are trying to get it. Since I lived in south Florida, I always obtained my visa from the Miami consulate. I never had any trouble at all. I never even had to put in a personal appearance. All I ever had to do was download the application form, fill it out, and send it in by mail along with my passport, photos, and a money order for US $50. My passport was always returned to me by mail within a week. Meanwhile, everyone else in the world who applies for the same visa either has an easy time of it or a terrible time of it, and yet it's the same visa. So, this time I can agree with you about the difficulties of obtaining it.

 

I also agree with you about Thailand's dependence upon tourism, and yet they seem to do everything they can think of to alienate tourists . . . the 1:00 AM bar closings are a perfect example. However, I think the reasoning that prompted the rule change is valid. There are a great many people taking advantage of the current rules and circumventing Thailand's ability to collect fees taxes from them, along with keeping track of where they are. I agree with the reasoning for the rule change, but I don't agree with the methods they have come up with to equitably put it in place. As I said above, this simply hasn't been thought through and it doesn't seem as if all the implications have been intelligently taken into consideration.

 

 

[Guest PapaDavid]

I always obtained my visa from the Miami consulate. I never had any trouble at all. I never even had to put in a personal appearance. All I ever had to do was download the application form, fill it out, and send it in by mail along with my passport, photos, and a money order for US $50.

 

Last time I checked here in the UK it had to be a personal appearance (but as that was a few years ago - it may have changed). Nevermind, the present (and soon to be changed) rules suit me admirably.

 

Various officials in various offices both within and without Thailand seem to interpret rules in different ways for no obvious reason and this applies equally in other areas of official life including banking. Bureaucracy gone mad !! - the only country that I have experienced which is worse is India.

 

Mai pen rai

 

 

[Guest mauRICE]

There is a reciprocal arrangement between Malaysia and Thailand for citizens of both countries who reside in the border towns to cross borders for the purpose of day trading. They must return to their home countries before the checkpoints close each day (around 10 pm). 99% of the day traders are Thai.

 

Malaysian day trippers and weekenders are unlikely going to be effected by this new ruling. They spend a lot of money shopping and utilising R&R services in the Thai towns and usually do not stay more than three nights at a time. They are tourists.

 

Malaysian businessmen who own factories in the Thai border towns are on business visas and are, indeed, welcome by the Thai government. They are subjected to the usual laws and regulations affecting foreigners running businesses in Thailand.

 

I have it on good authority that Thai Immigration will discriminate between genuine tourists who enter Thailand frequently for short-term visits and those on contiguous 30-day stay permits (at whom the new ruling is targetted).

[Gaybutton]

and this applies equally in other areas of official life including banking.

 

You're right about the banking. I know plenty of stories about a "farang" being told one thing in one bank and being told something entirely different in another branch of the same bank. I've had that happen to me too.

 

In my case, I wanted to open an account at one particular bank. I was told that a foreigner cannot open an account there without holding a work permit. I went to another branch of the same bank and was told the same thing. I went to a third branch and walked out fifteen minutes later with a new bank account, ATM card, and online banking.

 

The branch manager wanted to know which branches were telling me that a foreigner can't open an account without a work permit. He said he was going to inform the main offices in Bangkok about that. I loved what he said about what I was told. He used an American phrase and it came out as, "They tell you bool-sheet."

[PattayaMale]

Gaybutton...or anyone else that maybe able to explain this.

 

You (someone) mentioned taxes as on of the reasons for the new immigration rule. I understand what you said that it is hard for the government to keep track of where a person lives if he moves every 30 days. But I don't understand about the taxes. If someone owns a business don't they have to have a license that the police check? If someone from another country lives off their savings or pension and takes the money out via ATM there are not income taxes but they must pay VAT when they buy something, I assume. So I would think this would be a benefit to Thailand.

 

It occurs to me that the "untaxed" amounts would be great because few of the Thais that work in many bars or sell things in markets where cash usually changes hand don't pay taxes. I really not sure how the tax system in Thailand works or how limiting the 30 day visa increases tax collection.

[Guest gonefishing]

PapaD, cannot imagine how many years ago it was that you had to put in a personal appearance! The consulates at Hull, Birmingham, etc, will issue you with a 60 or 90 day multiple entry, Tourist or Non-im 'O', with minimal paperwork, within 3 working days by mail.

MauRICE, you are quite right about Malaysia and it is a similar situation for Cambodia.

The financial effect of the changes on Thailand will be minimal. There will be no effect on the Singaporean spending weekends here and flying back to Singapore during the week, as his exit/entry stamps will clearly not be "back to back", as with someone who repeatedly simply hops on a bus, goes across the Cambodian border, turns around and comes back.

The majority of those doing the out/in trips to Cambodia, at least according to the minibus companies, are on back-to-back 30 day stamps, many for years. Why?

There is a lot of fuss being made unnecessarily by some "resident" farangs about the changes. Again, why? Thais trying to do the same thing to the UK or the States, for example, would simply get laughed out of the embassies. The bottom line is that if you want to reside here legally, regardless of your age, you can do so with little effort. The question of shell companies with dummy shareholders is a totally different one as it concerns not only companies controlled by foreigners owning houses, but many major businesses - not least of which is Air Asia!

[Gaybutton]

Gaybutton...or anyone else that maybe able to explain this.

 

You (someone) mentioned taxes as on of the reasons for the new immigration rule. I understand what you said that it is hard for the government to keep track of where a person lives if he moves every 30 days. But I don't understand about the taxes.

 

That's a good question. I mentioned the concern about taxes because the articles include mention of taxes as one of the concerns. I haven't spotted an article that specifies what kinds of taxes they mean. I too am not sure what taxes they're talking about or how much Thailand is losing as a result of the 30-day rules.

 

My best guess is they may be referring to the amount of money Thailand receives when foreigners pay for tourist and non-immigrant visas and visa renewals. Most visa renewals cost 1900 baht a pop. Under the 30-day rule, people don't pay anything at all unless they pay for an extension or pay over-stay fines. When they make a visa run under the 30-day rules, they still don't pay Thailand anything. Perhaps that's what they're talking about.

[Guest wowpow]

Papa David, The Queen's Gate Consulate was not a very nice place and I think it opened from 8 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.

and took both UK and Thai Public Holidays. I had a mad dash to get there from Cheltenham until I discovered Visas by post. Maybe they do Visas by post but the provincial consulates are sure to be quicker.

 

 

I started getting Visas by post since 1996 and used the Birmingham office but the Hull office say they normally have a 24 hour tunaround

 

http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/visas1.asp

 

http://www.thailand-uk.com/thaiemb.html

 

I note that the Consular sites say they are getting inundated with requests for information about the new Visa restrictions but have not had any official communication from the Immigration Police yet.

 

[Up2u]

I found this interview to be informative. Non-immigrant O visas available within Thailand.....great!

 

http://khaosanroad.com/thailand_visa_issues.htm

 

New Thailand Visa Regulations Become Clearer

 

On Saturday night Sabah Cafe & Cinema had a semi-formal visit from Immigration Police Major Suppachai Paladech, Inspector of the Immigration Detention Centre and Secretary to the Commissioner of Immigration; technically the second in command at Immigration. The intended purpose of the visit was to clear up some rumors and ally fears that many long term 'tourist' are having regarding the implementation of updated immigration regulations on the 1st October 2006.

 

 

To avoid confusion and in the interest of clarity, questions and answers were discussed by a few before the process was repeated with an adjudicator and Police Major Suppachai Paladech addressing an audience.

 

Questions and Answers:

 

Question: It is obvious that the present border runners will change into visa runners to other countries. What are the Department of Immigrations thoughts on this?

 

Police Major Suppachai: From October 1st you can travel to the border and re-enter 3 times using the system of waiver of a visa. After that, if you get a single entry tourist visa from abroad you can stay here for 60 days, after that you can get a visa extension for 30 days, so it is already 6 months. Each time you leave the country you can come back with the visa extension again, so the tourist visa intervenes.

 

Question: So if we buy a tourist visa and extend it for 1 month can we leave buy another tourist visa and back, can we continue to do that?

 

Police Major Suppachai: Yes, you can do that. We don't want some people staying on visa extensions for ever. Some people stay for 10 years. The main thing at the moment is that now people that come to Thailand for 10 years are not getting screened. With the tourist visa the police now have a chance to check the people that are not on the blacklist. That is the main thing of this new law.

 

Question: When does the new rule effecting 90-day maximum wavered visas come into affect?

 

Police Major Suppachai: It means that the person who has been staying on visa extensions for years, you can depart. If your visa ends on the 30 September, you leave the country and come back on the 30th September, you still can use that 3 times. There was misinformation on the Internet, it doesn't count by stamps, it counts by days. This is very important, it counts by days not stamps. Yeah counts by days.

 

Question: This is going to effect the airlines. How is Immigration going to handle this? How does an airline know when a passenger comes to their stamp quota? The airline is responsible for their passenger?

 

Police Major Suppachai: Your question is a very good question. OK we know that from the first of October it counts from 90 days and the problems will come back. Many people will be stopped at the border, right. So within 90 days we will try to do something. Because we are thinking about the electronic visas. We will use that kind of visa where the airline will have to submit the name of the person to our office before to issue the ticket, similar system to the US. It needs at least 1 year.

 

We don't want people using that kind of system (visa waiver) to stay in our country forever, we have to use the tourist visa to intervene in that system to screen them, to screen the people who are staying in our country.

 

 

Question: We have heard that there will be a 3 month visa you can buy here in Bangkok. Is this a new rule, if so when is it in place, is it already in existence, can you explain?

 

Police Major Suppachai: It is not a new visa, it is a new regulation for foreigners who don't have a visa, but visa extension, it means you can apply for a non immigration type B and O at the Immigration Bureau.

 

Question: In Thailand right?

 

Police Major Suppachai: Yes. But it means that you have to have at least 3 weeks, I mean visa. It means when you come in right, you have 4 weeks. In the first week you have to contact immigration, in Bangkok in Suan Phlu and submit the papers that you want to change your visa. You have to have a visa. Before we could change the category of visa from tourist to non-immigrant, but this time we can issue the visa as well.

 

A summary of points that were discussed in more detail:

The reason for the new regulations are twofold:

 

1. Try to eliminate known foreign criminals from entering Thailand. It is desired by the authorities that those staying longer term in Thailand should be screened through a more thorough computer system available at Embassies, Consulates and Immigration offices. Hence the reasoning of forcing people into applying for longer stays after a maximum of 90 days by obtaining 3 consecutive free 30 day waivers of a visa at entry points. Border crossing checkpoints are currently limited to screening out undesirables on the 'Blacklist' and high profile undesirables.

 

2. Persuade foreigners that are on the incorrect visas or stamps to correct their paperwork in line with the law. By making the trip to an Embassy, Consulate or Immigration office necessary within 90 days from 1st October 2006, it is hoped that foreigners who are disrespecting Thai law rectify the situation by applying for the correct visa. To aid this, Non immigrant B and O visas will be issued inside Thailand at the Immigration Office in Bangkok. IMPORTANTLY, to apply you have to have at least 3 weeks remaining on your current stamp and obviously the correct paperwork. The visa needed to apply is yet to be clarified.

 

The Department of Immigration controls borders and The Department of Foreign Affairs controls Consulates and Embassies. There has been no official orders to tighten controls on issuing visas abroad. It is at the discretion of the issuing officer. It is business as usual. There is and never was a guarantee that you would be issued a single, double, etc visa. At borders the 90 day max of 'waivers of a visa' will be enforced once your 90 days FROM 1st October have been utilized within the period of 180 days.

 

Days in country are counted and NOT number of stamps. There is an issue here with airlines and the Department of Immigration understands this. It is their wish that a system similar to something like the US where passenger list are checked electronically before departure will be installed in the future to eliminate problems. This may take some time.

 

The Department of Immigration understands that their will be problems with the new regulations and will review as necessary.

 

 

[Guest wowpow]

PHUKET cloud the issue again

 

New visa rules confirmed

 

PHUKET: -- New rules limiting stays in Thailand on

[Gaybutton]

For many the problem is easily solved. Many people are eligible for the one-year retirement visa, but they choose to do visa runs instead. I don't understand the reasons why people make that choice, but I'm sure they have their reasons.

 

My suggestion is very simple: Get the one-year retirement visa if you are eligible for it. Then, the only thing you have to worry about is reporting your address every ninety days and renewing the visa once a year. You do not have to leave Thailand to renew the one-year visa.

 

Why anyone would choose to do otherwise, if eligible for the one-year visa, escapes me.

 

If you are not sure of what you have to do in order to obtain the retirement visa, just send me an E-mail. I have an article that I wrote not too long ago that clearly spells out what to do, step-by-step. If you'd like a copy of that srticle I will be happy to E-mail it to you. My E-mail address is gaybutton@gmail.com .

[Guest wowpow]

The retirement Visa is suitable for those who want to live in Thailand, are over 50 years old and have a pension of 65,000 baht a month or are in a position to bring in 800,000 baht once a year.

 

This may suit many forum members but, of course, not the vast majority of visitors to Thailand.

 

I guess that the majority of people who used to use back to back visa free 30 day entries will now get Tourit Visas which cost about 1750 baht from Embassies and Consulates outside Thailand. This is less than a visa run from Bangkok, Pattay or Phuket. It gives you 60 days in Thailand and you can extend another 30 days for 1900 baht. You can get another one when the current one runs out.