Forum owner gets suspended jail sentence

[Guest buckeroo2]

This may add credence to GB's concern in regards to Thailand's libel laws:

 

Website owner gets suspended jail term sex-scene pictures posted

 

BANGKOK: -- The owner of a message-board website got a suspended one-year jail term and a fine of Bt20,000 after a user posted sex-scene pictures of a Thai woman on his site.

 

The Criminal Court found Pongwit Singsun 23, guilty of violations of the Computer-Related Crimes Act for allowing his website to be used to damage another person's reputation.

 

Public prosecutors charged that the crime took place from October 6 to November 30.

 

A user posted the sex-scene pictures of a woman in Nakhon Sawan, who alerted police.

 

The court initially sentenced Pongwit to years and fine of Bt40,000 but commuted the penalties by half after he pleaded guilty.

 

The court later suspend the one-year jail term and put him on probation for two years during which he must report to probation officials for eight times. He is also required to carry out social service for 48 hours.

 

 

-- The Nation 2009-07-24

 

My link

[Gaybutton]

This may add credence to GB's concen in regards to Thailand's libel laws:

Thank you, and I rest my case. Someone out there wants to post something Thailand construes as libelous? Good. Start your own message board. Try it here and your post is gone. Very simple.

[KhorTose]

This may add credence to GB's concern in regards to Thailand's libel laws:

 

Website owner gets suspended jail term sex-scene pictures posted

 

Actually, I made that point. The poster did not go to jail, nor the moderator, it was the owner of the web site. A picture that was offensive was posted. No libel appears to have taken place. My question is why not the ISP owner the site was on, or the poster who did the deed? Let me tell U, only in Thailand.

[KhorTose]

Thank you, and I rest my case. Someone out there wants to post something Thailand construes as libelous? Good. Start your own message board. Try it here and your post is gone. Very simple.

 

1. Gaythailand stated he was going to contact a lawyer. "To help clear things up on this matter, I will make an appointment with a Thai law firm to find out the laws on libel in Thailand." What happened to that. Guess I will try to PM him since he seems to be hit and miss on reading this board.

2. I feel the need to quote you on picking up underage in the bars where you said, "Technically you are right, but a law is not a law unless it is enforced", and went on and gave dozens of examples in many countries.

3. Actually I see nothing wrong with telling people on this board not to post libel, but the "start you own message board" is unecessary and nasty and none of us need to hear that kind of snide comment. Yes, I know you are not running a popularity contest and you really don't care what we think of you etc., but I keep thinking you are suppose to be representing GayThailand on this board, and not yourself when you give replies like that.

[Guest]

1. Gaythailand stated he was going to contact a lawyer. "To help clear things up on this matter, I will make an appointment with a Thai law firm to find out the laws on libel in Thailand." What happened to that. Guess I will try to PM him since he seems to be hit and miss on reading this board.

 

Unless I am in the boon docks away from computer access, I assure you I am not hit or miss on reading the board.

[KhorTose]

Unless I am in the boon docks away from computer access, I assure you I am not hit or miss on reading the board.

 

Mia culpa

[Gaybutton]

but I keep thinking you are suppose to be representing GayThailand on this board, and not yourself when you give replies like that.

When it comes to the possibility of me ending up involved in a lawsuit, ending up having the police knocking on my door, or ending up being forced to leave Thailand, you need to understand there is no way in hell I am going to allow that to happen. It is pointless for you to keep arguing with me about it because I will not . . . repeat I will not . . . permit that to happen, especially just because a few people want to put down a business.

 

I meant exactly what I said. Normally I'm a pretty nice guy, or I at least try to be, but I draw the line when I've got somebody trying to get me to place myself in that kind of jeopardy. I do not apologize for what I said. In fact I'll repeat what I said: If you want to write posts that are potentially libelous under Thai law, then either post on a board that allows it or start your own board. You go right ahead and place yourself in jeopardy if you wish, but don't even think about trying to place me in it. As long as I am involved as a moderator on this board it's not going to happen. You're not going to come up with an argument to convince me otherwise, so I suggest you drop it.

 

Quite frankly, I don't give a good goddam whether you think I'm being impolite about it or not. In case you haven't guessed yet, I'm extremely angry at your continuous attempts to get me to permit those kinds of posts. How dare you try to do that to me! What, exactly, are you trying to achieve?

 

GT might as well save his money about going to a Thai attorney. I've already done that. I did that when I woke up one morning and found my own board blocked, and I am not going to allow it whether he finds an attorney who says it's acceptable or not. My own attorney said it isn't, and that's that. I don't know how I can make it any more clear.

[Guest Geezer]

We have been using the word “libel” in discussing the applicable law. As I understand it the applicable law is “defamation”. In Thai law it is defined as anything which causes damage to a reputation or financial status.

 

I may be wrong, but in developed countries I think if the defamation is proven to be true it is a perfect defense, while in Thailand it only needs to cause damage to be illegal.

[Guest]

GT might as well save his money about going to a Thai attorney. I've already done that. I did that when I woke up one morning and found my own board blocked, and I am not going to allow it whether he finds an attorney who says it's acceptable or not. My own attorney said it isn't, and that's that. I don't know how I can make it any more clear.

 

Sorry, was your board blocked based on libel and defamation or for the gay content, adult nature, etc? What was the reason given for the blocking and who did it?

[Gaybutton]

in Thailand it only needs to cause damage to be illegal.

That is correct and that is what my own Thai attorney told me. I'll go along with KhorTose in that it is unlikely that the board, its owner, or its moderators would be sued or arrested, but 'unlikely' isn't good enough for me, not when my entire future depends on it. If it is so important to some people around here to put down businesses or individuals, then they're going to have to find someplace to do it other than this board.

 

I will also repeat that if anyone thinks his post might be questionable enough that I would delete it, then all he has to do is send me a copy of what he intends to post and ask. If the post won't place me in jeopardy, then I have no problem with it. But if I feel that it could place me in that sort of jeopardy, then I won't allow it.

[Gaybutton]

Sorry, was your board blocked based on libel and defamation or for the gay content, adult nature, etc? What was the reason given for the blocking and who did it?

I can't answer any of that because we were never given the reason for it. Even my attorney was unable to get anyone to tell him the reason. The Thai government, or some agency of it, did the blocking.

[KhorTose]

Normally I'm a pretty nice guy, or I at least try to be.

 

Quite frankly, I don't give a good goddam whether you think I'm being impolite about it or not. In case you haven't guessed yet, I'm extremely angry at your continuous attempts to get me to permit those kinds of posts. How dare you try to do that to me! What, exactly, are you trying to achieve?

 

Normally you are a pretty nice guy, but you have not been on this board.

 

I am not trying to get you to do anything. I am discussing the subject with you. To disagree with you on this board is to attack you in your mind. I would ask you what the heck is wrong with you or do you always act that way? The only thing Lawrence did wrong was to disagree with you--the way I am doing--and you told him "not to let the door hit him in the ass", and then locked the thread. That was not only wrong but against the rules as posted. Be angry at me all you want, but in doing so you are sounding more and more like a petulant child and not a represenative of the board owner.

You are the moderator of this board and not the owner, and you should not be above the rules as posted on this board.

 

I know the following about Lawrence:

1. He is active on other boards under other names and had no real problems with anyone else.

2. I know him to be have a long term relationship with a Thai.

3. I know he is active in doing charity work and giving back to Thailand.

4. He plans to retire here and he is just the type of settled long term farang Thailand needs.

5. He is not someone I would even begin to consider telling to leave and "not let the door hit you in the ass."

 

So I guess you are right after all, I am trying to get you to do something, and that is to act the way you do on Pattaya Passion and drop your "don't let the door hit you in the ass" attitude.

[Gaybutton]

Normally you are a pretty nice guy, but you have not been on this board.

What took place with Lawrence is none of your business. You are assuming you saw all of his posts and know all the facts. You didn't and you don't.

 

Very sorry, but I am not going to discuss my actions regarding Lawrence or any other posters with you. Regarding your list, he could be Mother Theresa for all I care, but I go by a person's activities on this board and I feel no need to justify my own actions to anyone other than GT. If Lawrence wishes to discuss it with me, he knows how to send PMs and Email and probably knows how to find me if he wants to discuss it personally. And, by the way, he has not been banned from this board. The only people who have ever been banned from this board have been banned by consensus of the moderators, and no one has ever been banned by a unilateral decision by me.

 

Whether or not you like my comments to him, like my avatar, or like my general demeanor is a matter of indifference to me. If you don't like what you see on television, change the station. Same applies here.

 

Once again, no matter what you say or how many criticisms of me you wish to post, I am not going to permit being subjected to a possible libel action.

 

Ok, and on that note I'm all finished discussing this at all. There is nothing more for me to say that I haven't repeatedly said already. Some people say I always insist on having the last word. This time, if you want it, you get to have the last word.

[Guest topjohn5]

Don't you think this guys servers were in Thailand and that is why they did it? This is just retorical......but are yours?

[Gaybutton]

Don't you think this guys servers were in Thailand and that is why they did it?

I don't think it matters where the servers are. The servers could be located in another country entirely. What matters is what is posted, what is allowed to stand as a post, whether the post violates Thai law, whether the post can be construed under Thai law as libel or defamation, what actions the board owners and moderators take in response to the post, and whether those actions are taken in a reasonable and timely manner.

 

If legal action is taken, then the Thai authorities are going to go after whoever is readily accessible. In other words, me. Again, I'm the only moderator on this board who is a permanent resident of Thailand and it is quite possible I would be the first person served and/or arrested. While some people seem perfectly willing to have me take that risk, while they would be risk free themselves, what it all boils down to is that is not a risk I am willing to take.

 

Suppose I do start letting people write those kinds of posts. While some are certain I am going way overboard in my position about this and the fact that I am coming on so strongly and belligerently about it, what do they say to me if I do find myself in legal trouble because of those kinds of posts? Sorry?

[Guest LP]

When it comes to the possibility of me ending up involved in a lawsuit, ending up having the police knocking on my door, or ending up being forced to leave Thailand, you need to understand there is no way in hell I am going to allow that to happen. It is pointless for you to keep arguing with me about it because I will not . . . repeat I will not . . .

Well, if you are so afraid of consequences, why you would not just resign your position of moderator. That would end many years of abuse. What are you doing is not moderating, it is permanent insult of various people and abuse of position of "power" given to you by Gaythailand.

In most of the message board moderators keep law profile and do their job. You just permanently offending people damaging this website along the way.

Just go. Or as you once said to me GET LOST.

[KhorTose]

Whether or not you like my comments to him, like my avatar, or like my general demeanor is a matter of indifference to me. If you don't like what you see on television, change the station. Same applies here.

 

Once again, no matter what you say or how many criticisms of me you wish to post, I am not going to permit being subjected to a possible libel action.

 

Ok, and on that note I'm all finished discussing this at all. There is nothing more for me to say that I haven't repeatedly said already. Some people say I always insist on having the last word. This time, if you want it, you get to have the last word.

 

To take the points highlighted in order:

1. Much better then "don't let the door hit you in the ass", but still totally not necessary. There is absolutely no reason to say this.

 

2. I never asked you to post libel. What I asked and still ask for is consistency. You said NO businesses could be spoken ill of, and then when Gaythailand gave a bad restaurant review you changed it to bars only. One set of rules is not to much to ask.

 

3. You do and you will, because at some basic level you think you own this board.

[Bob]

In answer to somebody's post (Geezer?), the term "defamation" covers both libel (a written defamation) and slander (a verbal defamation). I've seen some of Thai laws on the subject which were translated into English....but I'm not sure the translation was very accurate (perhaps translated by a westerner who applied western thinking or, alternatively, translated by a Thai who's English isn't all that precise).

 

In any event, the real problem to me in this area is whether you trust the Thai authorities to be consistent, logical, and/or fair with respect to who they charge with criminal defamation. Myself? I don't trust them myself as I've shaken my head in disgust too many times after reading about somebody thrown in the pokey longer than some attempted murderer just for saying or writing something. There ain't no freedom of speech in Thailand and the only safe defense in this area is to be somewhat careful with what you say or write.

 

I'm guessing that GB might be a bit more sensitive to the issue in that he is a known quantity/person in Thailand (or at least in the Pattaya area). Even though my real name is "Bob" (boring at that may be), nobody other than some Thai and expat friends could possibly identify me on these boards (or at least I don't think so); regardless, I try to be a bit cautious as I would be heartbroken if my long-term visa ever got cancelled.

 

[if there was freedom of speech in Thailand and no consequences for saying what you really thought about some of the Thai elite, I'd break every board rule here and scorch some rather elite ears]

[Guest]

Well, if you are so afraid of consequences, why you would not just resign your position of moderator. That would end many years of abuse. What are you doing is not moderating, it is permanent insult of various people and abuse of position of "power" given to you by Gaythailand.

In most of the message board moderators keep law profile and do their job. You just permanently offending people damaging this website along the way.

Just go. Or as you once said to me GET LOST.

It is not an abuse of power that I give to him. I have asked his advice to keep the board above board and he has done a good job with this. GayButton is not going to be liked by everyone. Neither will I. Neither will you. We are all going to have friends and those who dislike us. On a board that is easy to be invisible, those that share their identity are often those that are targeted the most. Gaybutton is one of those people. I do not agree with all decisions he makes. I have reversed some of his moderated posts. We have had meetings and discussions on the board countless times. I agree with him 95 percent of the time. The other 5 percent I try to deal with. I do think he could be nicer and more gentle in his posts. I think that is true of you and many others as well. Gentility is not something forum posters are famous for. I come from the deep south and was told if I didn't have something good to say not to say anything at all. I think this is good advice when you are talking about another forum poster and I wish everyone would follow this. If you don't like someone (Gaybutton, me, LMTU, etc) just don't read the posts. Don't follow the discussion.

 

At the same time, realize we are trying to have a community that has a lasting effect on the gay world in Thailand. GayButton and TLP are the only 2 who have stepped up to the plate to volunteer as moderators and give their valuable time and energy to make this board survive and thrive. Any others?

 

 

2. I never asked you to post libel. What I asked and still ask for is consistency. You said NO businesses could be spoken ill of, and then when Gaythailand gave a bad restaurant review you changed it to bars only. One set of rules is not to much to ask.

 

Bars can be given bad reviews. Give them honestly and back them up. No problem there. What we can't allow is when someone posts about a specific bar's illegal activity. It is a very thin line. It has little to do with libel law IMHO. It is more to do with GayButton's enjoyment of life in Pattaya. His firm stance against underage sex has been very consistent over the years. That said, there are bars in Pattaya who hire these boys and he lives in a community that is full of gossip queens and where his own well-being could be at risk if things on this board get out of hand. I have never worried about the libel issue as much as how much I value GayButton and his service to this board and the community. He deserves to have a good life in Pattaya and that is often hard to do when bar owners are out for blood over message board postings dealing with some of them hiring underage workers. Leave that to the authorities to deal with. We suggest everyone check ID's from anyone from any bar in Thailand. ALWAYS.

 

I'm guessing that GB might be a bit more sensitive to the issue in that he is a known quantity/person in Thailand (or at least in the Pattaya area).

 

I think this is pretty accurate. He is sensitive to this issue. Partly because of his past dealings with his own board. The fact that he walks down the street and everyone knows who he is should also should make him sensitive. I learned this after a my first few years and have tried my best to maintain a low profile. You won't see me with an entourage of 40 guys anymore (I have limited my parties to 20). I wish I had taken the advice of a famous cat in Pattaya years ago and kept my identity to myself. It would have saved lots of grief. GayButton is in the same situation. I care for him and I care for his well being. He is a friend and a good man and deserves to live his retirement in peace.

[KhorTose]

Just a couple of questions. Who is TLP? I never knew we had another moderator.

 

You have hundreds of names in your member list. Where did all these people go to and why did they disappear?

 

You suggest if we do not like a post to say nothing. I am not familiar with the South, but wonder how any community can be so homogeneous. Diversity is one of the things that made America great. Diversity makes us listen to others and realize we (our particular group) does not have all the answers. Diversity requires we have an open mind, and it requires that we treat others with a certain degree of respect, but it does not require that we stay silent when we hear or see something that is wrong by our standards. In my own labored way I am trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting when you say if we do not like something just do not read it. Can you elaborate just a little?

 

As to not saying anything about illegal activity in a bar, I concur with that 100% and appreciate having that as a simple, easily understood and hopefully consistent rule.

[Guest]

Just a couple of questions. Who is TLP? I never knew we had another moderator.

 

You have hundreds of names in your member list. Where did all these people go to and why did they disappear?

 

You suggest if we do not like a post to say nothing. I am not familiar with the South, but wonder how any community can be so homogeneous. Diversity is one of the things that made America great. Diversity makes us listen to others and realize we (our particular group) does not have all the answers. Diversity requires we have an open mind, and it requires that we treat others with a certain degree of respect, but it does not require that we stay silent when we hear or see something that is wrong by our standards. In my own labored way I am trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting when you say if we do not like something just do not read it. Can you elaborate just a little?

 

As to not saying anything about illegal activity in a bar, I concur with that 100% and appreciate having that as a simple, easily understood and hopefully consistent rule.

 

TLP is a moderator who is an active poster on the site but did not want his posting name associated with his moderator name. I thought this was a great idea and agreed. Some do not mind being associated as a moderator. Some do. To each his own.

 

The member list is for the website and NOT just the forum. The website has people looking for hookups and they are automatically enrolled in the forum.

 

I did NOT suggest that if you did not like a post to post nothing. I said, if you don

[Guest LP]

It is not an abuse of power that I give to him. I have asked his advice to keep the board above board and he has done a good job with this. GayButton is not going to be liked by everyone. Neither will I. Neither will you. We are all going to have friends and those who dislike us. On a board that is easy to be invisible, those that share their identity are often those that are targeted the most. Gaybutton is one of those people. I do not agree with all decisions he makes. I have reversed some of his moderated posts. We have had meetings and discussions on the board countless times. I agree with him 95 percent of the time. The other 5 percent I try to deal with. I do think he could be nicer and more gentle in his posts. I think that is true of you and many others as well. Gentility is not something forum posters are famous for. I come from the deep south and was told if I didn't have something good to say not to say anything at all. I think this is good advice when you are talking about another forum poster and I wish everyone would follow this. If you don't like someone (Gaybutton, me, LMTU, etc) just don't read the posts. Don't follow the discussion.

 

At the same time, realize we are trying to have a community that has a lasting effect on the gay world in Thailand. GayButton and TLP are the only 2 who have stepped up to the plate to volunteer as moderators and give their valuable time and energy to make this board survive and thrive. Any others?

 

 

 

 

Let us just separate two issues.

1. You cannot find a moderator.

2. You fully support Gaybutton as a moderator.

1. If this is the case, you may consider to invoke some incentives taking into account

that this is profit-oriented website. Who knows it may help you to find someone who can moderate in professional manner. That 1000 dollars you gave away to active posters could be better spend by paying it to reasonable moderator. Gaybutton spooks many more potential posters than you ever be able to attract by various give aways.

2. Your comment about other posts and posters quite legitimate: indeed, it is a sound advice to ignore posts or posters whom one does not like. However, Gaybutton is moderator and he permanently insults me. And not me only. He is generally disliked by a significant number of people, of which you presumably try to build a community. As I mentioned to you in my private message, it suffices to see what kind of reception he gets in other message boards where "freedom of speech" (so to say )is allowed. He can post

without being attacked only in strictly controlled envorinment.

If you support him in constantly insulting people not belonging to his inner circle,

then there is nothing to talk about. Otherwise, I would recommend you to look how moderators operate on other message boards.

He frequently tries to present you and himself as two victims of unfair and vicious attacks

but clearly you are much more likable guy and the only reason that you are attacked in connection with this message board is that as the website owner you are eventually responsible for Gaybutton's abuse.

If you keep him as a moderator, you will have a situation of permanent conflict which, imho, is simply not beneficial for the commercial nature of your website.

[Guest]

 

Let us just separate two issues.

1. You cannot find a moderator.

 

We have 4 moderators. Myself. Stef. GayButton and TLP. We can always use more. Volunteers are ALWAYS welcome. My requirements, simple, a good poster with a good reputation whom I have met personally. I would not give access to the board to someone that I do not know.

 

2. You fully support Gaybutton as a moderator.

1. If this is the case, you may consider to invoke some incentives taking into account

that this is profit-oriented website. Who knows it may help you to find someone who can moderate in professional manner. That 1000 dollars you gave away to active posters could be better spend by paying it to reasonable moderator. Gaybutton spooks many more potential posters than you ever be able to attract by various give aways.

 

He is a great moderator. He has his faults. So do I. I do support his decisions as a Moderator. I don't always support his tone in his postings. To me, the two are different. He is a poster first and foremost and a moderator second. He is often brash and harsh in his tone. He gets easily frustrated. We all do. That is him as a poster. As a moderator, he makes wise decisions for the board. I wish others were able to separate him as a poster from him as a moderator.

 

While we are a profit driven board, we make no profit. It is a board that pays it bills and no more. I don't expect this to change. It is a passion for me and I love Thailand and like for others to have information here. If we ever get to the point where we are making a profit, I'll hire a full-time moderator, photographer, videographer, reporter and administrator. If you can help along these regards, I'll be happy to post my Siam bank account.

 

2. Your comment about other posts and posters quite legitimate: indeed, it is a sound advice to ignore posts or posters whom one does not like. However, Gaybutton is moderator and he permanently insults me. And not me only. He is generally disliked by a significant number of people, of which you presumably try to build a community. As I mentioned to you in my private message, it suffices to see what kind of reception he gets in other message boards where "freedom of speech" (so to say )is allowed. He can post without being attacked only in strictly controlled envorinment.

If you support him in constantly insulting people not belonging to his inner circle,

 

I don't support anyone insulting anyone else. I'll try my best to watch out for this. I guess I have a thicker skin than most and don't take things personally. I had one poster threaten me via e-mail today to bend to their will or they would post on other boards how horrible this board is and campaign to try to get others to stop posting here. I did not take that personally. It is unfortunate that people take these boards so seriously. I truly mean this. It is suppose to be a place where people can come and converse and share ideas and opinions and help each other. I am sorry if at times it goes beyond that and I will try my best to watch out for this. My apologies to anyone who has been insulted by another poster. Perhaps I have not kept a close enough eye on the board and promise to be more attentive. Hell, we have this new software and I really like it so I'll be playing here more often for sure.

[KhorTose]

After all the bitching it is time to say some positive things.

 

1. Your response is to the point, and over all excellent, and you have cleared up my understanding of your earlier response. I totally agree debate is fine--name calling is out. That must have been some great massage. LOL

2. Your new board format is outstanding and does make this board easier to use.

3. I am glad to see that there are other moderators and that you will take a more active hand, in between trips to Babylon. . (Remember, I am still stuck in the states.)

4. The whole debate has been a learning experience for me, and I hope for others. If we did not disagree from time to time we would not be human. A place where we can disagree and discuss our difference in a civilized manner is really what community is all about. It is my hope that this board will continue on the path to becoming that special place that is the heart of any community.

[Guest buckeroo2]

I come from the deep south and was told if I didn't have something good to say not to say anything at all.

Some from the Deep South are more like Blanche DuBois in "A Streetcar Named Desire" -"Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." And there are we East Coast people who more firmly follow Alice Roosevelt Longworth's credo - "If you have nothing nice to say about someone, come sit next to me."