Bar with underage

[Guest greg_is_normal]

Guys - asking for the appropriate action here. I off'd a guy from a bar (cannot remember which one) in the street of Surawong - u all know it! I asked mammasan his age and then asked him and they both confirmed 20. When back to Hotel not allowed (and rightly so) as age was 17. I was really pissed off. I know I should have asked for ID but as I am blind as a bat without my glasses (sic).

I sent him on his way BUT went back to the bar and told them what I thought. I was naturally shown indifference. My question is "what is the appropriate action" - should I just forget it (even though it may have been a setup) or should I raise pure hell over this.

Your advise is welcome.

Cheers

 

[Guest RichLB]

should I just forget it (even though it may have been a setup) or should I raise pure hell over this.

Your advise is welcome.

Cheers

I can appreciate your wanting to "raise pure hell" over this, but to what end? It won't change anything and it might just cause you grief. As tough as it might be, swallow hard and chalk it up to a lesson well learned. Always check their id!!!

 

[Gaybutton]

I agree with RichLB. If it would do you any good to go back and raise hell, that's what our advice would be, but it won't do you any good and it could actually backfire on you. So, my advice is to do just as RichLB says . . . forget about it, chalk it up to experience, and take your glasses with you next time and make sure about the ID.

[Guest Oogleman]

Walk away being thankful he never got in your room.

 

Dont mention the bars name on forums ( tell your friends privately to stay away from it).

 

You can say a lot without words.

 

In my ramblings on many forums i write about a lot of bars and venues but if i know or suspect there are underage in a bar i simply never write about the bar and i never go there again. Those that know me can read between the lines or search and see if i`ve never written about a place.

 

The reasons i dont write about them or name and shame?

 

1) Its practically impossible for me to prove anything - people would be relying on my word alone and as we all know there are some crazy and malicious individuals online who would try sully some decent bars reputations.

 

2) Some of the "bad" establishments would not hesistate to have someone exact revenge on an accuser . Physical violence or some sort of police sting may be possible.

 

 

Sure we have a duty of care to others at times, but we must also look after ourselves as well.

 

If you really want to say something, i`m sure there are "organisations" in your homeland that would welcome any information you can give without exposing you as a source.

[Guest Astrrro]

it could actually backfire on you.

 

I agree.

 

IMO it's best to take small financial losses so as not to create enemies, especially in a foreign country, and especially when involved with questionable activities such as prostitution. Once a can of worms is opened it's tough to put the lid back on.

 

 

 

[Guest tdperhs]

Dont mention the bars name on forums ( tell your friends privately to stay away from it).

 

Why not?

 

[Gaybutton]

Why not?

That's a reasonable question. The two main reasons it's not allowed on this board are because there have been problems before when someone who had a personal grudge against a venue either grossly exaggerated the problem or even just made something up.

 

The second reason is Thai libel laws. Naming the venue subjects to board owner and the moderators to the possibility of libel suits. Under Thai law, if you post something that hurts a business, that's libel, even when what was posted is entirely true and can be proved.

 

As much as I would like to allow people to post what they want when they feel they have been wronged by a venue and as much as the probability of actually being sued by the venue is remote, it's still a risk I'm not willing to take and I'm not going to allow people to subject me to that risk.

 

There is no problem about posting what occurred, but I have to ask that the names be left out of it. For example, I'd love to name every bar that hires under-age boys. I've been asked to do that in the past, but I won't do it and have never done it because of these bizarre Thai libel laws.

 

The bottom line is that in most cases the incidents people post about could just as easily have happened at other venues. By posting about the incident itself, that serves to warn others about the kinds of things that potentially can happen no matter where you go. I think the warning is much more important than naming the venue. The incident reported by greg_is_normal could have happened, and has happened, at several different bars, both in Bangkok and Pattaya. The most important part of his post is the warning to carefully check ID cards. You would want to heed that warning in any bar in Thailand. The warning is much more important than the name of the venue. The name of the actual venue in which this particular incident ocurred is superfluous.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

GB...I agree with most of your post...but if a bar is offing boys to customers who ask their age, then they are subjecting customers to many years in jail and more problems than they would ever need. There mus be some way to get the word out when they are offing youngsters and claiming they are 18...they are putting all of us in jeopardy.

[Bob]

....they are putting all of us in jeopardy.

 

While I can understand the sentiment, who primarily is putting oneself in jeopardy is oneself - i.e., the first and only intelligent defense is to see what appears to be a valid ID and to make sure you can read it. If I would ever get caught with an underaged kid offed from a bar, I'd blame the bar second (me first). Don't worry, I won't ever let it happen to me.

 

One needs to remember that many Thais think and say they are 18 as soon as they turn 17 (the thinking being they are in their 18th year). And one also needs to remember that some of them (and their mamasans) lie through their teeth about their age. So your only defense is to just be smart as noted above.

[KhorTose]

I completely agree with GaySacGuy, and I would suggest the poster post this message on a board that realizes that boards are not just a social club, but a network for vital information like provided in the original post. I want to know about all the scams happening in Thailand, from the airport and its duty free shops to bad bars like this one.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

While I can understand the sentiment, who primarily is putting oneself in jeopardy is oneself - i.e., the first and only intelligent defense is to see what appears to be a valid ID and to make sure you can read it.

Exactly, when someone tells you something is true, it is always best to check it out for yourself, particularly when getting it wrong could land you in the monkey house.

[Gaybutton]

There mus be some way to get the word out when they are offing youngsters and claiming they are 18...they are putting all of us in jeopardy.

It's not exactly a secret that many bars do this. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the person taking a boy off to check his ID card.

 

While it would be nice to allow people to post the names of bars that do this, as I said I'm not going to allow it. From among all the moderators on this board, I'm the only one residing permanently in Thailand and the only person who would be in serious jeopardy is me. Well, very sorry folks, but I'm not going to place myself in legal jeopardy.

 

Considering that there has never been a case in which a farang was arrested when taking a boy off from a bar, no matter what the boy's age was, I'd say the risks to people posting on this board are a little on the minimal side.

 

On the other hand, people are asking me to not only place myself at legal risk, but you are also asking me to break Thai libel laws. I'm willing to do neither.

[Guest fountainhall]

I'd blame the bar second (me first)

 

Totally agree with all the recent comments about each of us having to take responsibility for our own actions. The need to check ID cards and how to interpret them has been posted many times on many boards.

[Guest greg_is_normal]

Thanks for all your comments. You are correct in it was partly my fault and I should not trust the ages given to me and that I should check the ID's - I will carry by glasses next time. As an aside...I did receive my 'off fee' back and also a couple of jugs of beer which I enjoyed with another foreign comrade sitting outside who gave me similar advice at the time. That being "let it go as they can make it bad for you (me)". Whist the Thais are very nice - they can also fuck you up real bad if pushed.

Cheers

[Guest Geezer]

This is the latest tactic in my ten year campaign to prevent boys from switching ID cards to deceive me concerning their age.

 

I first ask the boy the day of the month of his birthday.

Next I ask him if he has the government issued ID card.

If he says he does, I ask him if I may see it.

 

As he has already told his birthday. It is almost impossible for him to use another lad’s card.

 

To avoid language problems I have printed the following on a slip of paper, which is folded so that the next question cannot be seen until he has answered the preceding one.

 

 

What day of the month were you born?

วัน เดือน ปี ที่คุณเกิด ที่เท่าไร

 

Do you have your Thai Government ID card here?

คุณมีบัตรประจำตัวประชาชน หรือเปล่าครับ

 

May I look at it?

ขอผมดูได้ไหมครับ

 

This has produced more than a few sheepish grins.

[Gaybutton]

I did receive my 'off fee' back and also a couple of jugs of beer

That seems like a satisfactory outcome to me. That's a lot more than most people get under similar circumstances. In Thailand, the worst thing you can do is to lose your temper and start carrying on, even if you have been intentionally wronged. It's not going to solve anything and will most likely make a bad situation even worse.

[Guest tdperhs]

Totally agree with all the recent comments about each of us having to take responsibility for our own actions. The need to check ID cards and how to interpret them has been posted many times on many boards.

 

Okay, Ill accept that, but with a whole helluva lot of reservation. Acting responsibly means acting appropriately in accordance with the best information you have. All human knowledge is derived from two sources, instinct and shared information. We know that the age of consent in Thailand is 18 years old because someone was sharing information. Armed with shared information, we make decisions.

 

Of course, the main caveat here is the validity of the information. But we know that the more public information is, the more subject it is to scrutiny and challenge. So we do tend to go with what is generally known.

 

In this thread, the situation cited is one in which three parties have entered into a fiduciary agreement - an agreement based on some level of trust. The boy has a service to offer, the bar owner has a product to offer (the boy), and the farang, greg-is-normal wishes to procure the boy's service. Aware of the law, the farang requests information from both of the other parties as to the legal qualifications of the boy to provide the service. Both of them violate the trust by lying to the farang (assuming the owner was truly aware of the boy's age. If not, he is too dumb to breathe.). This was the best information greg-is-normal had. Before enjoying the service, he learned the truth and terminated the contract. At least he got the off fee back. SURPRISE!

 

The question looms as to whether or not the he took sufficient precautions. Barring any obvious indications, like the boy being 4'6, carrying a Winnie the Poo backpack. and wearing a school uniform, I believe he did. Any agreement implies a degree of trust. How many people, when they take off a boy, ask for a security clearance, determine that he is not a serial killer (how many boys went off with Jeffrey Dahmer?), or whether or not he is HIV positive in a country that boasts a population of HIV positive people in excess of 30%? Furthermore, suppose he had examined the boy's ID? How many farang have become expert enough to be able to tell a real one from a phoney?

 

In Thailand, there is a culture of fear about publicly sharing such information. This is brought about by businesses and government agencies seeking to stifle any criticism through threats of litigation and imprisonment for violation of Thailand's Libel and Defamatory Act of 1997. So, despite the fact that the litigants seldom prevail in court, people are often loathe to share this information because of the cost of defending themselves. The tide may be turning a bit in that regard because the Press Registration Act of 2006 protects publishers and editors, allowing litigants to go after only writers. How that law applies to Internet forums, I do not know.

 

However, all is not lost. Posting the problem without mentioning names has at least put us on alert that some bar owner in some general locale is not playing by the rules. Those of us who do not live in a building that checks ID's will have to be more alert. Possibly, someone may take the initiative to develop a forum beyond the reach of the Thai Libel and Defamation Act.

 

An important part of the business deal was denied greg-is-normal, shared information from a source removed from the deal- unless we assume he was the first to encounter this boy. Had that information been available, I think it is a safe bet he would not have taken the boy off (and been spared the ordeal of drinking the two jugs of beer).

 

One more point. There is a tendency to place some of the burden of the fault on the victim. and it is obvious in this thread. This is a universal failing. Whenever we see somone vitimized, we want to assure ourselves that we won't fall into the same trap. By finding a flaw in the victim's rationale or actions, we assure ourselves that we would never have followed that course and we take comfort that we could not become victimized in the same way. It is crap, of course. But I do it, too.

 

I believe greg-is-normal did exactly what he should have done. And he came out ahead - a couple of jugs of free beer ahead.

[Guest]

Geezer, that is brilliant. Thanks.

 

The legal summation just offered for this is excellent. Thanks tdperhs.

[Gaybutton]

So, despite the fact that the litigants seldom prevail in court, people are often loathe to share this information because of the cost of defending themselves.

That's right. People are awfully quick to criticize me for refusing to allow these venues to be named on this board. Meanwhile, since the first one to end up in the police station, attorneys offices, and court over it, if it comes to that, would be me, I don't see anyone lining up to say, "GB, it is so important to me to name the venues that I will pay all your legal fees, judgments, and anything else that might happen as a result."

 

While it is very kind of some people to be perfectly willing to subject me to the risk of lawsuits and court action, along with jeopardizing my freedom, my ability to live in Thailand, and my money ending up paying legal fees and judgments, so that they, risk free to themselves of course, can use this board to name the venues they wish to accuse, I think I'll just pass on that and happily live with the criticism instead.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

GB, I think you have made your point very clear. People just need to accept that you are not going to post or allow the names to be posted and get over it.

[Guest fountainhall]

An important part of the business deal was denied greg-is-normal

 

I rather wonder what tdperhs' legal argument has to do with taking an underage boy from a bar! Selling shrimp to Japan, perhaps, but whatever rights the law may confer on those in a dispute involving the age of a barboy, I doubt if anyone gives a damn about fiduciary agreements entered into verbally, especially the police. Besides, proving such verbal agreements would almost certainly be impossible.

 

Surely far more important in this type of case, especially in this country, is the age-old advice - "caveat emptor".

[Gaybutton]

There is a tendency to place some of the burden of the fault on the victim. and it is obvious in this thread. This is a universal failing.

I don't see it that way. Neither do the police and the Thai courts. I think some of the burden of the fault is on the victim in this kind of situation. The victim gets to spend years in jail and have his life ruined. The perpetrator, if you want to call it that, is right back to work the next night and nothing happens to him. If the victim fails to take the proper precautions, we can argue back and forth as to whether it's his fault, but it's not going to matter much in the long run. If it isn't his fault, the police will be happy to listen to him explain that . . . all the way downtown.

 

Just like a pedestrian getting hit and killed by a car. Maybe it wasn't his fault, but he's just as dead.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Oh the poor victim!!!!!! Anyone with a brain that functions can avoid being a victim in this situation.

[Gaybutton]

Anyone with a brain that functions can avoid being a victim in this situation.

The trouble is, otherwise normally intelligent people often come here and instead of using the brain they ought to use, they start using their second brain . . . the one in their crotch.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

The trouble is, otherwise normally intelligent people often come here and instead of using the brain they ought to use, they start using their second brain . . . the one in their crotch.

Ah! That's why I said "a brain that functions", not an intelligent person.

 

It's been said that God gave man 2 heads, but only enough blood for 1 to function at a time.