a-447 Posted January 2 Posted January 2 This, along with the earthquake yesterday, has locals wondering if these are portents of what's to come in Japan in 2024. I was down near Mt Fuji when the earthquake struck and although I didn't feel anything at all, my train back to Tokyo was cancelled and it took an extra hour to get back home. Knowing Japan,they'll have the airport opened by tomorrow. They don't mess around here. TMax and Ruthrieston 2 Quote
Popular Post vinapu Posted January 2 Popular Post Posted January 2 great news all passengers and crew got out safely Phoenixblue, TMax, reader and 2 others 4 1 Quote
Phoenixblue Posted January 2 Posted January 2 2 hours ago, reader said: Horrible thing to happen coming on the heels of the new year but I'm very thankful that everybody on board made it out safely. I wish everybody safe and happy trips, be well you all. TMax, vinapu and reader 1 2 Quote
Popular Post reader Posted January 2 Author Popular Post Posted January 2 The outcome is testament to the cabin crew in getting all 357 aboard the A350 out of the aircraft. It reflects much credit on the carrier, the training the crew received and the behavior of the passengers. Anything less could have resulted an unthinkable tragedy. This video includes some brief footage taken by a passenger from within the cabin after the collision. Phoenixblue, floridarob, TMax and 3 others 4 2 Quote
Members unicorn Posted January 2 Members Posted January 2 Wow. Maybe some air traffic controller or pilot had too much celebration for New Year's? fedssocr and reader 2 Quote
Popular Post Phoenixblue Posted January 2 Popular Post Posted January 2 3 hours ago, reader said: The outcome is testament to the cabin crew in getting all 357 aboard the A350 out of the aircraft. It reflects much credit on the carrier, the training the crew received and the behavior of the passengers. Anything less could have resulted an unthinkable tragedy. This video includes some brief footage taken by a passenger from within the cabin after the collision. The cabin crew maintained their calm and evacuated the passengers out of the aircraft in a professional manner. Their dedication and bravery should be recognized and rewarded. They saved lives and are the true Heroes in this terrible accident. vinapu, numerito, TMax and 4 others 5 2 Quote
t0oL1 Posted January 2 Posted January 2 Five people were killed on board the coast guard aircraft, officials said. reader, Phoenixblue, Ruthrieston and 1 other 4 Quote
Phoenixblue Posted January 2 Posted January 2 15 minutes ago, t0oL1 said: Five people were killed on board the coast guard aircraft, officials said. According to the news the Japanese Coast guard aircraft was protruding in the landing strip, or it's nose anyway. It should not have been this close to the landing area. Either the control tower or the pilot of the Coast Guard plane, who by the way survived, somebody must have committed a catastrophic human error that led to this accident. I'm sorry for the lives of those lost and am thankful for the survivors. unicorn and TMax 2 Quote
Keithambrose Posted January 3 Posted January 3 13 hours ago, vinapu said: great news all passengers and crew got out safely Quite unbelievable. It seems that as A350 is made of composite materials, that helped, and pax all left hand luggage on board. Can't see that happening in Europe! Quote
floridarob Posted January 3 Posted January 3 55 minutes ago, Keithambrose said: Can't see that happening in Europe! Or in any of the America's 8 hours ago, Phoenixblue said: Either the control tower or the pilot of the Coast Guard plane I read that the CG pilot was told to hold short and he entered the runway to hold.... Phoenixblue 1 Quote
a-447 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 16 hours ago, Phoenixblue said: The cabin crew maintained their calm and evacuated the passengers out of the aircraft in a professional manner. Their dedication and bravery should be recognized and rewarded. They saved lives and are the true Heroes in this terrible accident. Yet the local media has not mentioned them. As far as the Japanese are concerned, the flight attendants were simply doing their job. No need to single them out for praise. Quote
reader Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 Excerpted from Japan Times: Trisha Ferguson, an aviation expert involved in passenger safety education, told The New York Times that the evacuation was an example of cooperation between the plane’s crew and its passengers. "The crew was spectacular in their reaction times,” said Ferguson, CEO of the Interaction Group, which designs airline safety cards. "What they did was amazing.” She told the newspaper that safety policies in recent decades have focused on educating passengers about how to react in emergencies, rather than simply having well-trained staff. Some have called the successful escape a miracle, with Paul Hayes, director of U.K.-based aviation consultancy Ascend by Cirium, supporting Thomas’ claim that no-one was seen leaving the plane carrying hand luggage. "The cabin crew must have done an excellent job,” Hayes told Reuters. “It was a miracle that all the passengers got off." https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/01/03/japan/haneda-miracle-rescue/ Phoenixblue and unicorn 1 1 Quote
Phoenixblue Posted January 3 Posted January 3 54 minutes ago, a-447 said: Yet the local media has not mentioned them. As far as the Japanese are concerned, the flight attendants were simply doing their job. No need to single them out for praise. As far as I am concerned the cabin crew conducted themselves wonderfully. Yes it was their job and duty to evacuate the plane but a job well done deserves praise and recognition if for nothing more than to motivate them and all cabin crew in JAL's fleet to strive for excellence and maintain their dedication. numerito and reader 2 Quote
Phoenixblue Posted January 3 Posted January 3 8 hours ago, floridarob said: I read that the CG pilot was told to hold short and he entered the runway to hold.... The irony is that CG pilot survived while all the rest of the plane's 5 crew died. Still it would make the investigators job easier now that they have the pilot to give his testimony. Quote
vinapu Posted January 3 Posted January 3 2 hours ago, a-447 said: Yet the local media has not mentioned them. As far as the Japanese are concerned, the flight attendants were simply doing their job. No need to single them out for praise. certainly that lucky pilot did not do his job unicorn 1 Quote
Members unicorn Posted January 3 Members Posted January 3 3 hours ago, vinapu said: certainly that lucky pilot did not do his job I feel a song coming on. reader 1 Quote
reader Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 From NHK Newsline Passengers of burning plane detail horrific ordeal Passengers of a Japan Airlines plane that collided with a Japan Coast Guard aircraft at Tokyo's Haneda Airport on Tuesday have been describing their dramatic escape. Many instantly knew something had gone horribly wrong when the plane met the runway at 5:47 P.M. One passenger says she heard a bang, and noticed a fire. She says she initially thought there had been a bird strike or other incident. But as the flames spread, she knew it was a bigger accident. She said, "The crew urged travelers to stay calm and kept asking them to sit down and not to take their luggage. But people kept coming forward." She continued, "The inside of the plane became pitch dark, and the fire kept getting bigger," adding that she thought her life was about to end. Another passenger says the plane filled with smoke. He says the cabin crew announced that the doors at the center and back could not be opened, so everyone evacuated from the front. All 379 passengers and crew used three emergency exits. The last person got out at 6:05 P.M. Continues with video https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240103_31/ unicorn, Phoenixblue, t0oL1 and 2 others 2 2 1 Quote
reader Posted January 4 Author Posted January 4 It's becoming increasing clear that communication in general, and phraseology in particular, may turn out to be the keys to understanding the cause of the accident at Heneda. The release of the transcript has established that the Coast Guard aircraft had not been given permission to either be on the runway or to take off while the JAL flight had been cleared to land. The bedrock of preventing runway incursions has been the use of standardize phrases aimed at ensuring both pilots and controllers share the same understanding of instructions. Pilots are required to repeat (say back) the instruction received by the controller. This is intended as a fail safe procedure. However, no communications system is perfect and that appears to be the case here. Another problem that occurs when one party inadvertently speaks simultaneously on the same frequency (known as being "stepped on") results in one or more parties not hearing their transmission. Incursions typically occur when a taxiing aircraft is crossing an active runway or when a aircraft enters an active runway to take off. Any misunderstanding by ether party--pilot or controller--can result in an incursion. For example, in 2010, the US Federal Aviation Administration adopted new language to help reduce the possibility of miscommunications. Line Up and Wait Phraseology Change Beginning on September 30, 2010, the words "Position and Hold" will no longer be used to instruct a pilot to enter the runway and await takeoff clearance. Under the new "Line Up and Wait" phraseology, the controller will: State the call-sign. State the departure runway. State "Line Up and Wait". Differences in phraseology contribute to runway incursions. Analysis by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) revealed that differences between FAA and International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) air traffic control phraseology contribute to runway incursion risks. NTSB recommended that the FAA adopt the international standard terminology: "Line Up and Wait" to replace "Position and Hold". FAA Safety Analysis. In accordance with its Safety Management System procedures, the FAA Air Traffic Organization conducted a safety analysis of this recommendation. FAA implemented mitigations to ensure a safe transition from the old phraseology to the new. Exercise caution. Be aware the phrase "Traffic Holding in Position" will continue to be used to advise other aircraft that traffic has been authorized to "Line Up and Wait" on an active runway. REMEMBER: Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. You may not enter a runway unless you have been: Instructed to cross or taxi onto that specific runway Cleared to take off from that runway, or Instructed to "Line Up and Wait" on that specific runway If in doubt ASK! ============== From ABC News Australia A transcript of communication between air traffic control and two aircraft that collided and burst into flames at Tokyo’s Haneda Airport appears to show that only the larger Japan Airlines (JAL) flight was given permission to use the runway. But while the transcript appears to show the Coast Guard plane was only given permission to taxi, Japan's NHK television reported that the smaller plane's captain, the only member of the Coast Guard crew to survive, maintained he was given permission to take off. An official from Japan's civil aviation bureau told reporters there was no indication in the transcripts that the Coast Guard aircraft had been granted permission to take off, according to Reuters. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-04/japan-airlines-crash-permission-to-land-coast-guard-not-cleared/103283704 Phoenixblue and t0oL1 2 Quote
Members unicorn Posted January 4 Members Posted January 4 4 hours ago, reader said: ... The release of the transcript has established that the Coast Guard aircraft had not been given permission to either be on the runway or to take off while the JAL flight had been cleared to land... Sad that, ironically, the pilot was the only one on his plane to survive. Well, hopefully he'll be court-martialed, fired, and thrown in jail for manslaughter/criminally negligent homicide. It could have ended up even worse. Quote
reader Posted January 4 Author Posted January 4 I'd be reluctant to rush to judgement until ALL communications issues are fully established and investigated along with any other mitigating circumstances. Like a doctor accused of malpractice, the pilot deserves an impartial and objective review of all factors before fault is determined. omega, thaiophilus, 10tazione and 1 other 4 Quote
floridarob Posted January 4 Posted January 4 39 minutes ago, reader said: I'd be reluctant to rush to judgement This is the internet, is what everyone does these day..... vinapu 1 Quote
Members unicorn Posted January 5 Members Posted January 5 5 hours ago, reader said: I'd be reluctant to rush to judgement until ALL communications issues are fully established and investigated along with any other mitigating circumstances... Obviously, the pilot is entitled to his day in court, and should not be considered guilty under the law until convicted. However, if the facts are as previously stated (the control tower didn't give clearance for the Coast Guard pilot to be on the runway, but he was there anyway), then I don't see much room for nuance. The conversations were all recorded, so either someone faked the transcript, or that pilot's responsable. The fact that this pilot lied about it afterward only makes matters worse, in my opinion. Again, assuming the transcripts of the communications are accurate, things seem pretty clear-cut. Everything is on tape, so, unlike some criminal or civil trials, this is not a he said/she said situation, with the addition of circumstantial evidence. What was said was recorded. Quote
reader Posted January 5 Author Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, unicorn said: The fact that this pilot lied about it That definitely is not a fact. That's your conclusion. Until all of the evidence has been evaluated by professional investigators from Airbus and the civil aviation authorities, nothing is conclusive. t0oL1 1 Quote
Members unicorn Posted January 5 Members Posted January 5 5 hours ago, reader said: That definitely is not a fact. That's your conclusion. Until all of the evidence has been evaluated by professional investigators from Airbus and the civil aviation authorities, nothing is conclusive. No, NOTHING is conclusive. Maybe the CG pilot's self-serving statements are true, and the recordings between the control tower and the pilots were all faked. I guess we'll just have to wait to find out the truth. 😉 Quote
