Is the gay scene dying off ?

[PeterRS]

Just now, gerefan said:

I now stay close to Jomtien Complex and so visit regularly.

I do not think I have seen any Asian customers. Most seem to be expats or Europeans. 

Thanks @gerefan. Given the existing clients, on the basis of @macaroni21's theory below, this could suggest that the Complex days will also be numbered. I have no idea of the average age of customers there, but if I recall correctly Sunee's customer base when I was last there was not especially old - absolutely not all 60s and 70s. I remember a good sprinkling of 40s and 50s. But for some reason they gradually disappeared. Can Jomtien Complex continue to thrive if the average age of customers is somewhat advanced and there are few if any of the new breed of Asian customers? What is your view? Just curious!

15 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Try this other theory of change for size: I can't remember what its proper name is but I shall call it the tipping point effect. Applying it to Sunnee (and one might apply it to Jomtien host bars though they're at a different point in the trajectory for now), it goes like this: the market did not suddenly vanish. It declined gradually as Sunnee lovers aged or died.

 

[PeterRS]

I feel I must mention here a superb post made by @macaroni21's predecessor quite a few years ago. There had been a lengthy discussion about the fact that go-go bars were becoming somewhat boring in that all seemed to adopt the same model and lacked the entertainment value of earlier bars like Barbiery. He outlined his idea for an updated go-go bar which included various sections, one being where the boys would always dance naked. Entry to this part would obviouly be more expensive but the essence was that a bar which  offered a variety of different types of experience could perhaps rejuvenate the bar scene. I thought it was brilliant!

[floridarob]

9 hours ago, Lucky said:

Friendly people too, just not necessarily in a thong.

I'll be there the second half of January, not usually in a thong 😉

[hojacat]

2 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Good point. While I doubt if the regulars of Sunnee, being in the main of a certain generation, might adopt technology quite so easily, it is possible that the newer generation of twink-lovers did. So, as Sunnee's reputation went down the toilet, they stayed on the apps rather than travel all the way to Sunnee. This may have contributed to the non-renewal of the Sunnee scene.

 

Good question. If I may speculate:

1. The association with paedophilia caused reputational damage to Sunnee unlike other places.

2. The "product offer" of Sunnee was unusually narrow (fem twinks) and held little attraction to the newer generation of western tourists and Asian clients.

3. As Asian traffic rose, Bangkok had an advantage. Asian tourists tend to make shorter trips, so staying in Bangkok made more sense compared to going all the way to Pattaya (which is also why Pattaya's Boyztown has also seen considerable decline).

Something related to pint 1 and 3. I think the late 2000s and early 2010s were also the time when Pattaya became a bit unappealing to the young Western crowd, as it developed a reputation as just a place for prostitution. That's how I knew it even before my first trip to Thailand in 2009, while still in college. 

Also, isn't that the same period when Russians became the number one tourist group in Pattaya? I might be mistaken but I think Russians are not really into go-go bars. Maybe because of linguistic barriers, the desire to be discreet, etc but if they pay they even their hotel or going to massage places, which I've heard are actually quite popular with Russians.

So I don't know how were things in the early 2000s or what the owners were seeing but 16 go-go places in such a small radius is definitely too many, especially since most of the tourists in your city doesn't care about them.

The reason saunas (which I can confirm personally) and places like Soi 2 and 4 are still going very strong in BKK is exactly because their are being patronized by the main tourist group in Bangkok: Asian travelers. 

[PeterRS]

30 minutes ago, hojacat said:

Something related to pint 1 and 3. I think the late 2000s and early 2010s were also the time when Pattaya became a bit unappealing to the young Western crowd, as it developed a reputation as just a place for prostitution. That's how I knew it even before my first trip to Thailand in 2009, while still in college. 

Isn't prostitution in one or other of its forms one of the reasons many gay guys visit Thailand? We all know that tips for offing from bars aren't tips; they are just fees for prostitution! Was Sunee's reputation for prostitution any different from Soi Twilight's? 

But another reason for Pattaya's slow decline as a gay go-go venue may be its having been much more a retirement haven for westerners, many of whom moved there quite a few years ago partly for the availablility of the bars and guys. Many are ageing given the length of time they have lived here. I'd guess there are many more retirees in Bangkok but Bangkok also has a vastly larger array of evening haunts apart from go-go bars and a great many expats who choose for whatever reason not to visit go-go and other bars. A bit like the new version of me! 

For a dozen years, I had living next to me a couple of elderly gay UK expats enjoying their retirement here. I once asked them of they read this forum. They did not read any gay forums and had no interest in them! In the evenings, only one of them would visit the then Telephone Bar about 4 or 5 times a week, but only to meet up and chat with fellow western expat friends. That was his only reason for the visits and they never went anywhere else. The other cruised occasionally in Silom Complex but no idea how successful or otherwise that turned out to be.

And isn't one basic problem for Pattaya that perhaps retirement options now in other parts of the world are a good deal greater than they used to be. I know several people who are considering Portugal before its existing easy visa access is changed, including Chinese guys from Hong Kong. For medical costs, India is now a good deal less expensive than Thailand with some very fine medical faciities. Of course Thailand takes some beating, but for those who read the American threads on this forum, several countries in South America have become/are becoming attractive.

As I know from my travels, there are also gay young Asian guys in many European cities very happy to meet up - although the numbers are small. In Asia, I expect Taiwan will eventually introduce a retirement visa and that Vietnam may change its previousy changed policy and reintroduce one. I certanly would find Vietnam very enticing. Just thoughts!

[hojacat]

23 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Isn't prostitution in one or other of its forms one of the reasons many gay guys visit Thailand? We all know that tips for offing from bars aren't tips; they are just fees for prostitution! Was Sunee's reputation for prostitution any different from Soi Twilight's? 

My point was that Pattaya being known JUST as a place for prostitution and old people going there to consume it made it much less appealing to a younger crowd who would much more go to Bangkok, Phuket, Pangan, Samui, Chiang Mai then there. This in turn made it much more difficult for the bars to attract new customers.

I guess we all agree that go-go bars in Pattaya overextended during their golden years and didn't adapt to the new realities of the gay scene and the tourism in Thailand. Hence, the unavoidable decline.

[10tazione]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:29 AM, hojacat said:

when if he goes online he can get a guy straight to his bed within 5-10 minutes

You must be joking! Alone the commercial videos we have to bear in dating apps nowadays that cannot be interruptet take more time than this Don't forget to add a lot of time for "does not answer", "does show a few hours late or does not show at all", "looks completely different" ...

[macaroni21]

2 hours ago, hojacat said:

I think the late 2000s and early 2010s were also the time when Pattaya became a bit unappealing to the young Western crowd, as it developed a reputation as just a place for prostitution.

I agree that that was possibly a big factor. And not just for the young Western crowd, but for the young Asian crowd too.

Even in Bangkok, the younger crowd, besides being centred on Silom Sois 2 and 4, gravitated to massage parlours instead of gogo bars as many of us have observed. Technically the "masseurs" are sex workers too, but there is a greater degree of deniability.

It takes age for a person to be able to say: to hell with it, I buy sex. Younger people are more reluctant to go whole hog that way because at their age, they and their peers can get free sex. It's embarrassing to admit to buying sex. Your peers may think you're ugly or some kind of predator.

While the massage places (which also had the benefit of local Thai patronage) stayed alive and well, meanwhile, the Bangkok and Pattaya Boyztown gogo bars masked their steady bleed of gay clients because they enjoyed a boom time from the massive expansion of tourism in Thailand between 2008 and 2018. The straight couples discovered the raunchy shows they were putting up. This actually made the gogo bars even more unappealing to the younger gay crowd. You might accidentally meet a co-worker there!

This wave of first-time Asian mass tourism is ending. The gogo bars are never going to see the same traffic as before, because those straight Asian tourists will not care to see a seedy big cock show a second time. "Been there, done that". This explains why the gogo bar scene may be in gradual decline too (most visibly in Pattaya).

The stupid thing is that, through the boom time, the bars got addicted to the straight gawking crowd, and thus lost their focus on the sex-buying gay market.

Will there be a sex-buying gay market in future? Of course there will. The present generation of Soi 2 and Soi 4 goers will age. 

But the gogo bars need to wean themselves off the straight gawking customers and reinvent themselves to cater to the emerging generation of gay customers.

How bad are these bars at business? Very bad. To start with, they're not even copying the massage places and selling their boys on the Line app! If they have websites, they're still featuring gatoeys!

 

[reader]

4 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

But the gogo bars need to wean themselves off the straight gawking customers and reinvent themselves to cater to the emerging generation of gay customers.

IMO, the Hot Male beer bar on street level of Patpong 2 has moved in the right direction. The effort is not on showcasing boys in skimpy underwear but an ample supply of friendly and attractive waiters and bartenders who act more as "hosts" and are open to conversing with customers without being pushy.

They are offable (500) just as the guys who work in the HM go-go upstairs.

For the solo customer, they can help you feel comfortable. For returning customers, they easily become familiar faces to welcome you back. 

Drink prices are reasonable and you can enjoy watching the ever-changing flow of foot traffic along with views of the boys from SOL bar across the soi who display themselves on the balcony when not on display inside. Btw, the SOL boys are free to join you for a drink at your table.

[10tazione]

4 hours ago, reader said:

They are offable (500)

On my last visit I learned:

500 Monday - Wednesday

600 (?) Thursday - Sunday

something like that

[jason1975]

9 hours ago, 10tazione said:

On my last visit I learned:

500 Monday - Wednesday

600 (?) Thursday - Sunday

something like that

Friday and Saturday is definitely 600 baht off fee.

Sunday is somehow not considered weekend. I paid 500 on Sunday recently. I know because I paid with a 1000 baht note for 2 waiters to go to DJ Station with me!

[PeterRS]

20 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

I agree that that was possibly a big factor. And not just for the young Western crowd, but for the young Asian crowd too.

It takes age for a person to be able to say: to hell with it, I buy sex. Younger people are more reluctant to go whole hog that way because at their age, they and their peers can get free sex. It's embarrassing to admit to buying sex. Your peers may think you're ugly or some kind of predator.

There are so many wise words and observations in @macaroni21's post. My somewhat extensive experience here and elsewhere in the region  is also that younger guys - generally speaking - are more embarrassed now to be known by their peers about buying sex. And since most tend to travel in groups of two or more, this can be a potent deterrent. 

It was all so different when my generation was their age. We came from countries where in many cases it had been illegal to be found in gay acts or where homophobia was rife. If in the UK such prominent people as one of the country's greatest actors Sir John Gielgud (entrapment in a public lavatory) and the code-breaker Alan Turing whose work it is said had shortened the Second World War by almost two years had to go through the humilitation of public court trials for being gay ultimately leading so sadly to the suicide ot Turing, what chance had we lesser mortals of expressing our sexuality? We then found Asia and the male nudity aplenty in bars like 69 Retiro Strip in Manila and Twilight in Bangkok. We were in naturally in 7th heaven!

Youngsters nowadays, however difficult it may be for them to come out of the closet, have a multitude of outlets for free sex, much of it anonymous if they wish. Why therefore pay for it other than the entrance fee for a sauna?

20 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

While the massage places (which also had the benefit of local Thai patronage) stayed alive and well, meanwhile, the Bangkok and Pattaya Boyztown gogo bars masked their steady bleed of gay clients because they enjoyed a boom time from the massive expansion of tourism in Thailand between 2008 and 2018.

I beieve many of us forget that in the late 1970s and 1980s, the majority of patrons in go-go bars were Thais! It was not unusual to see no farang in Apollo bar and less than a handful in Twiilight, even at weekends when a little guy was packing the floor space with temporary seating as customers swarmed in - and there must usually have been at least 80 customers. Barbiery later seemed to pack 100 in at week-ends, again mostly Thai. I have always wondered where the Thais then disappeard to. Massage spas and saunas no doubt. and also to the gay sections of the many basically straight dance clubs that began to appear off Sukhumvit especially up near Thonglor. My guess is that they were not comfortable sitting in a go-go bar with an increasing number of farang or where they might be seen by their peers. So they migrated to places where they could be with their own group of friends and fellow gays in gay sections of surroundings which were not generally known as gay.

20 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

But the gogo bars need to wean themselves off the straight gawking customers and reinvent themselves to cater to the emerging generation of gay customers.

How bad are these bars at business? Very bad. To start with, they're not even copying the massage places and selling their boys on the Line app! If they have websites, they're still featuring gatoeys!

 Reinventing is something few go-go bars seem to even consider. We've read before about X-Size bar in Soi Twillight which in the early 2000s did try someting new with, in addition to go-go boys, a group of excellent dancers and dance students doing often great dance routines. But the production was poor with long gaps between the numbers when customers just got bored. When X-Size died, the dancers were taken on by the German across the soi. But they did not last there and ended up for a few months in Roxy in Soi 4. But the desperate lack of what I will just call a producer/director killed them. Which was sad.

I recall going back many years when @Gaybutton was not merely an active member of this forum but also a Moderator. He was I beieve one of the first to lament the lack of entertainment offered by the go-go bars. His view was echoed by many that the go-go bars had ceased to be fun! Barbiery had it in spades. Hotmale did its best. Classic Boys had the water tank with increasingly dirty water that I'm surprised no boy caught an infection. But in most it was  generally same-old same-old.

15 hours ago, reader said:

IMO, the Hot Male beer bar on street level of Patpong 2 has moved in the right direction. The effort is not on showcasing boys in skimpy underwear but an ample supply of friendly and attractive waiters and bartenders who act more as "hosts" and are open to conversing with customers without being pushy.

They are offable (500) just as the guys who work in the HM go-go upstairs.

With all respect to @reader and his view which no doubt will be supported by many, my view of a go-go bar is not a more expensive indoors version of a host beer bar where the guys are dressed, the off fees higher and the booze more expensive. Is that really what go-go is all about? Perhaps in the third decade of the 21st century, it is. I just don't know. Is that what is going to attract customers whose command of English is almost zero? Again I just don't now. I wish i did and then perhaps @Olddaddy and I could go into business opening our own bar somewhere LOL (see @Olddaddy's thread about opening a business in Thailand!)

[macaroni21]

53 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Barbiery later seemed to pack 100 in at week-ends, again mostly Thai. I have always wondered where the Thais then disappeard to.

I remember Barbiery well, it being among the first gogo bars where I had great times and indelible memories. And yes, at least half the clientele were Thais.

Where have they gone? To the internet, I guess. Free porn, paid porn (Onlyfans, etc), online hookups paid or otherwise. 

[Boy69]

At the gold era Sunne Plaza (except one bar I don't remember its name owned by English Falang )didn't have any shows most of the clientele were very old and most of the boys working there were very young some were minors and it was a sex trade 100 percent. In Boyz Town were good selection of bars with great shows and eager  to please working boys the ambience was thriving. Jomtien Complex was somehow in the shadow with open beer bars visited by old-timer expacts not much clients. Also there was some low level bars at Soi Day Night area which disappeared very quickly with very few customers.

Pattaya had so much to offer at the good old days, sadly nowadays it's a shadow to what it used to be

 

[reader]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:56 AM, macaroni21 said:

It's embarrassing to admit to buying sex. Your peers may think you're ugly or some kind of predator

I wouldn't worry about it; you're peers are probably all doing the same thing but just opt not to talk about it, either. Prostitution is an equal opportunity exercise.

It's those who don't use prostitutes from time to time that are most likely to become predators.

[reader]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:15 AM, PeterRS said:

In Asia, I expect Taiwan will eventually introduce a retirement visa and that Vietnam may change its previousy changed policy and reintroduce one. I certanly would find Vietnam very enticing. Just thoughts!

I agree about Vietnam.

Although it lacks the transportation infrastructure that Thailand offers, it possesses many outstanding national parks and beaches and no shortage of attractive men.

The first country that can produce a reasonable cost health care plan attractive to retirees will have a foot up on the others.

[hojacat]

On 12/9/2023 at 7:03 AM, PeterRS said:

I had a favourite sauna in Singapore named Rairua. It opened in 2002 and was out of the city centre. Like Babylon, it was very well decorated and laid out. It introduced SIngapore's first nude nights. These became so popular that other Singapore saunas had adopted the theme within a year. The clients tended to be better off, cute young Singaporeans - very few foreigners like me! Then virutally without warning it closed its doors in 2006.  Now that building happens to be the Singapore branch of the gay Pulse Clinic which started in Bangkok!

Singapore saunas though have the tendency to close a bit abruptly, even when they are popular. I used to go to Singapore every 2-3 years and the popular sauna they recommended you to go to would change every time. Haven't been there in 7 years. Remembered that last time the place to go to was called "Cruise" sauna. You actually had to register to get in and get a pass with your ID number in it. I think I still have it somewhere. Saturdays used to fully packed and if I'm not mistaken it was naked night. Not sure if any of you guys went there. Looks like it closed around 2019-2020. Planning to go again in a few months and now the most popular one seems to be Keybox. Anyone has been there? Anyway, maybe I should post this under the Singapore thread so as not to go off-topic.

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, hojacat said:

Singapore saunas though have the tendency to close a bit abruptly, even when they are popular. I used to go to Singapore every 2-3 years and the popular sauna they recommended you to go to would change every time. Haven't been there in 7 years. Remembered that last time the place to go to was called "Cruise" sauna. You actually had to register to get in and get a pass with your ID number in it. I think I still have it somewhere. Saturdays used to fully packed and if I'm not mistaken it was naked night. Not sure if any of you guys went there. Looks like it closed around 2019-2020. Planning to go again in a few months and now the most popular one seems to be Keybox. Anyone has been there? Anyway, maybe I should post this under the Singapore thread so as not to go off-topic.

Never visited Cruise and with a few exceptions basically gave up the SIngapore sauna scene after Rairua closed. Keybox is definitely the most popular now with all nationalities. There are memberships but only for Singaporeans. Visitors must pay the S$22 entry every time. Shogun sauna iis cheaper but the age range of patrons seems generally much higher.

[reader]

On 12/11/2023 at 11:31 PM, PeterRS said:

With all respect to @reader and his view which no doubt will be supported by many, my view of a go-go bar is not a more expensive indoors version of a host beer bar where the guys are dressed, the off fees higher and the booze more expensive. Is that really what go-go is all about? Perhaps in the third decade of the 21st century, it is. I just don't know. Is that what is going to attract customers whose command of English is almost zero?

For clarification, Hot Male beer bar is neither "indoors" or "more expensive." It's open on two sides to the environment and the drinks are about a third the price of those in the go-go bar above it. It does a robust business with a wide cross section of customers local, western and Asian, all of whom seem to have no communications issues. The off fees are competitive with those charged on the soi.  I presented it as an alternative to the go-go bars and not as another version of them. Drop by sometime and experience it for yourself.

As for what things will be like in the "third decade" of the century, let's hope we're all around to find out. Meanwhile, I'll settle for what's it like in February. 😀

[PeterRS]

7 minutes ago, reader said:

For clarification, Hot Male beer bar is neither "indoors" or "more expensive." It's open on two sides to the environment and the drinks are about a third the price of those in the go-go bar above it. It does a robust business with a wide cross section of customers local, western and Asian, all of whom seem to have no communications issues. The off fees are competitive with those charged on the soi.  I presented it as an alternative to the go-go bars and not as another version of them. Drop by sometime and experience it for yourself.

As for what things will be like in the "third decade" of the century, let's hope we're all around to find out. Meanwhile, I'll settle for what's it like in February. 😀

Thank you. Sounds a little like Hotmale 2 in Twight.

[reader]

Actually there's two Hot Male beer bars. The other is one flight up and the balcony affords a good view of the boys from SOL bar opposite. A bit more quiet but with the same friendly waiters who are always ready to banter.

[Keithambrose]

12 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Never visited Cruise and with a few exceptions basically gave up the SIngapore sauna scene after Rairua closed. Keybox is definitely the most popular now with all nationalities. There are memberships but only for Singaporeans. Visitors must pay the S$22 entry every time. Shogun sauna iis cheaper but the age range of patrons seems generally much higher.

Thanks. I am hoping to be in Singapore in June!

[hojacat]

19 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Never visited Cruise and with a few exceptions basically gave up the SIngapore sauna scene after Rairua closed. Keybox is definitely the most popular now with all nationalities. There are memberships but only for Singaporeans. Visitors must pay the S$22 entry every time. Shogun sauna iis cheaper but the age range of patrons seems generally much higher.

Out of curiosity went to the Singapore forum to check if anyone had reviewed any sauna there. The only one I can find dates 2012 and mentions a certain Queen Resort sauna, which looks like closed around 2014. Definitely Singapore's gay saunas have short shell life. @KeithambroseDon't be surprised if Keybox is not there when you get to Singapore😂, but if you manage to go please write a review on this site. I'll do the same if I get to visit. This site lacks reviews for saunas that are not located in Thailand, maybe with the exception of Taipei since a few us have visited Soi13 and have written about.

[PeterRS]

8 hours ago, hojacat said:

Out of curiosity went to the Singapore forum to check if anyone had reviewed any sauna there. The only one I can find dates 2012 and mentions a certain Queen Resort sauna, which looks like closed around 2014. 

I suggest this is not a good forum for gay nightlife entertainment in many regional cities, with possible exceptions of Taipei and occasionally Tokyo and Hong Kong. I suggest you read this one which has no less than 328 pages about Keybox sauna going back to 2009. So it's definitely not correct to suggest that all Singapore gay saunas have a short shelf life.

https://www.blowingwind.io/forum/topic/13933-keybox-sauna-upp-circular-rd-no-ads-or-bitch-fight/page/328/

But please remember this is a forum that attracts a very large number of late teens, 20s and 30s Singaporeans. Not many of the individual posts are more than occasional sentences and there is more than a reasonable share of bitchiness. It is not similar to this forum.

While you are at it, you may also want to have a look at that site's Travellers Hut forum. It occasionally throws up some interesting facts about other cities in Asia.

https://www.blowingwind.io/forum/forum/30-travellers-hut/?/forum/30-travellers-hut/=

You can see quite quickly that these Singapore guys are in general more interested in gay massage and masseurs than specifically in gay saunas and discos.

[Keithambrose]

14 hours ago, hojacat said:

Out of curiosity went to the Singapore forum to check if anyone had reviewed any sauna there. The only one I can find dates 2012 and mentions a certain Queen Resort sauna, which looks like closed around 2014. Definitely Singapore's gay saunas have short shell life. @KeithambroseDon't be surprised if Keybox is not there when you get to Singapore😂, but if you manage to go please write a review on this site. I'll do the same if I get to visit. This site lacks reviews for saunas that are not located in Thailand, maybe with the exception of Taipei since a few us have visited Soi13 and have written about.

Ok will do review when I get to Singapore!