Is the gay scene dying off ?

[macaroni21]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I noted that the Patpong Museum has moved to lower Patong 2 across from Foodand - and mention this only because there was a thread some months ago which I believe indicated the Museum had closed.

But it was opposite Foodland for several years, in an upstairs series of rooms. Has it moved downstairs - is that what you mean by "lower"?

[PeterRS]

37 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

But it was opposite Foodland for several years, in an upstairs series of rooms. Has it moved downstairs - is that what you mean by "lower"?

Apologies! I thought I had read comments on the forum some months ago about how it had closed. That's why I was a bit surprised to see it on Patpong 2. It is obviously where is always was - on the upstairs.

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, MaxBKK said:

Mechai Viravaidya 

You are abosolutly correct. Sorry for my error.

[macaroni21]

re Patpong Museum, the signs are still there on Soi Patpong 2, but upstairs, on what used to be its front door, it says "Space for rent".  RIP. I loved it when I visited.

[reader]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:44 PM, PeterRS said:

 His chapter on gay and straight nightlife is interesting for it gives a much greater insight into why things like go-go bars exist, why the elite loathe them and why, in Kerr's considered view, they will unlikely enjoy continued success in the longer term.

It's good to bear in mind that even though the elites like to think of themselves as above all others, they don't like to reminded that they represent far less than five percent of the population. Thankfully I don't rub elbows with any of them. They're free, as you say,  to "loathe" whomever they wish. And I'm sure the feelings are mutual all around.

It's not just us gays who are drawn to Thailand for ts seedier side. Straights out number us and seek out their own places of interest. Taken as a whole, sex sells and no one is more aware of that than the Tourism Authority of Thailand and the Chamber of Commerce.

The fact that the author Kerr, accomplished as he might be, can do nothing to change that.

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, reader said:

It's good to bear in mind that even though the elites like to think of themselves as above all others, they don't like to reminded that they represent far less than five percent of the population. Thankfully I don't rub elbows with any of them. They're free, as you say,  to "loathe" whomever they wish. And I'm sure the feelings are mutual all around.

I think the only comment I can usefully make to further the debate is that the elites and their cronies in the army control much of what goes on in this country. Their influence vastly outweighs their numbers - as is the case in quite a number of countries. Around 2000 it was thought that Thaksin would at least reduce the influence of the elites. How successful or otherwise he was is clearly a matter of debate. He certainly opened the eyes of the majority around rhe country that they had a vote which could effect their lives. But my own view is that overall he failed to reduce the influence of the elites by much.

My hope is that come the next election Pita Limjaroenrat and his party will be true to their word and that the people will finally have a much greater say in the running of the country. That assumes the elite will permit that to happen. I know what I think. Only time will tell.

 

[Ruthrieston]

We can only hope what the future may bring. A few years ago I met a gay Thai man from a very wealthy family drinking with friends in Telephone Bar in Soi 4 Bangkok. Shortly after that his family told him that if he did not get married soon then they would throw him out and disown him. He married and the young lady soon worked out the issues and started demanding more and more money from him. The hiso set really do despise gay people, and are willing to punish their own children. 

As for any hope of democracy returning to Thailand, I simply cannot see the army ever relinquishing their absolute grip on power.

[floridarob]

30 minutes ago, Ruthrieston said:

He married and the young lady soon worked out the issues and started demanding more and more money from him.

Should've married a Lesbian...

[reader]

The best thing that elites have going for them is that they’ll succumb before the gay scene does.

[PeterRS]

13 minutes ago, reader said:

The best thing that elites have going for them is that they’ll succumb before the gay scene does.

I'd like to have a close look at your crystal ball. Probably a bit of mist in there somewhere LOL Please name a country where the elites have "succumbed". A gay scene will always be around as it is in almost every country in the world outside continental Africa and a few other countries. The question essentially is: will it remain as one with gay go-go bars? You know my response!

[reader]

Although we're discussing Thailand, power among "elites" regularly shifts back and forth, nowhere perhaps more so than in South America and--more recently--in Europe. We've also seen it occur in China and Japan over time.

As the elites die off, many of their decedents will very likely view matters through a glass less darkly. They will exercise their influence differently.

You're convictions seemed centered on the eradication of gay bars. You can still find them in other traditional Asian societies--north and south. This may come as a disappointment to Kerr but encouragement to others who enjoy the freedom of expression they represent and--of course--just one more reason gays from all other nations choose to spend their disposal income in Thailand. 

Sleaze, my friend, is much underrated.

 

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, reader said:

Although we're discussing Thailand, power among "elites" regularly shifts back and forth, nowhere perhaps more so than in South America and--more recently--in Europe. We've also seen it occur in China and Japan over time . . .

You're convictions seemed centered on the eradication of gay bars. You can still find them in other traditional Asian societies--north and south.

No. What I have written about before - and regret I may have given the wrong impression in my earlier post in this thread - has always centred very specifically on gay go-go bars, and this is what is equally specifically discussed in Mr Kerr's book . These you can find in virtually no other Asian societies. Manila used to have an active gay go-go scene even before Bangkok, but that largely ended decades ago. There are still a few go-go bars, but from what I read on this forum and elsewhere (since it is more than 20 years since I last attended one in Manila), they are not similar to those in Thailand, particularly with the dancers being older and less svelte. And they are certainly not a patch on what Manila used to offer in the late 1970s and 80s.

Frankly I know of no such bars in Japan, China, South Korea, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Laos or Cambodia. Tokyo did 'experiment' with a few such bars years ago, but they proved not to fit with Japanese ideas of what makes a gay night out and were discontinued. As in Thailand, though, there will no doubt be some underground establishments where nudity for boys and customers may be common, but these are never brought to the notice of tourists or even most Japanese. As for other continents, i am sure you must agree that even in Europe we learn of the number of go-go bars and bars where guys would strip off completely now being far fewer that was the case 10 - 15 years ago. Are Prague and Berlin anything like what they used to be like in this respect? I know little of South America, unfortunately, but again from what I read, the 'action' is much more in the saunas than in a go-go type bar. Perhaps some guys who do visit South America regularly can correct this if that is a wrong assumption.

So it is the gay go-go bar model which I believe will eventually die out, and it will be for a mix of commercial pressures (like Sunee Plaza) and pressure from the elites in 'society'. Girlie bars will probably continue but be even further restricted re where they can operate. 

I am certain gay bars as such will always be around in most cities around the world. Even China still has some gay bars and clubs. In Taiwan they are increasing. But this type of gay and other nightlife entertainment is certainly not always dependent on the 'elites'. Tokyo used to boast 400 bars (almost all tiny) in the Shinjuku ni-chome district alone. That number droped by 25% in the last 10 or so years as could be seen pre-covid by the open spaces where buildings have been torn down. That has not been a mandate of any elite. It has been purely commercial pressures.

The one area where Tokyo in particular is clamping down on a certain type of nightlife is on the multitude of host clubs principally for young ladies. Japanese lawmakers rarely become involved in nightlife. After all it was the Americans who wrote their constitution! But almost uniquely they have recently become concerned at questionable business practices in host clubs where the object is to relieve young ladies of vast amounts of cash for super expensive drinks like Remy Martin Louis XIII cognac or vintage Cristal champagne, all with a mark-up often in the range of 10 times the actual price. Recently Japanese newpapers have been full of information about one club where a customer attacked the host by stabbing him in the shoulder with a knife, accusing him of having ruined her life.

Host bars for women have been around for 60 years but recently the pressure of their pet hosts, especially in the clubs in Kabukicho near Shinjuku, to make them spend such vast amounts has led to some patrons becoming prostitutes to pay for their habit while others find themselves in a rapidly spiralling debt. Some hosts actively encourage the customers to go into sex work. Others have resorted to suicide. These clubs actually operate under a specific section of an entertainment law. Now the Liberal Democratic Party is considering changes that will increase regulation.

[reader]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

No. What I have written about before - and regret I may have given the wrong impression in my earlier post in this thread - has always centred very specifically on gay go-go bars, and this is what is equally specifically discussed in Mr Kerr's book . These you can find in virtually no other Asian societies. Manila used to have an active gay go-go scene even before Bangkok, but that largely ended decades ago. There are still a few go-go bars, but from what I read on this forum and elsewhere (since it is more than 20 years since I last attended one in Manila), they are not similar to those in Thailand, particularly with the dancers being older and less svelte.

If this is the case, all the more reason for Thailand to hold on to its go-go bars. I said earlier that the country has a lock on the reputation and that's a good thing, akin to having the last credible supply of plutonium. Why would you want to voluntarily destroy it?

The Tourism Authority has made no secret that it wants to attract gay tourists for the sake of the pink currency they represent. Keep those bars that have those svelte dancers and the muscle boys. They're good for the economy.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Kerr who has probably never stepped inside a go-go bar. But I bet more than a few of these so-called elite purists dress down and sneak into the bars because there's so scientific evidence that the wealthy experience homosexuality in a smaller percentage than the population at large. The gay go-go bar may be the last, best example of true democracy on the planet.

 

[Marc in Calif]

1 hour ago, reader said:

The gay go-go bar may be the last, best example of true democracy on the planet.

Democracy isn't about the free mixing of economic classes. Try again?

[Boy69]

18 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Around 2000 it was thought that Thaksin would at least reduce the influence of the elites. How successful or otherwise he was is clearly a matter of debate. He certainly opened the eyes of the majority around the country that they had a vote which could effect their lives. But my own view is that overall he failed to reduce the influence of the elites by much.

Thaksin was a currpoted biloner it's true that he tried to reduce the influence of the elites but not for the benefit of the Thai people and certainly not to makes Thailand a true democracy his plan was to gain absolute power for himself to weaken the army by appointing his favourites and to make the king an ineffectual puppet.

[hojacat]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So it is the gay go-go bar model which I believe will eventually die out, and it will be for a mix of commercial pressures (like Sunee Plaza) and pressure from the elites in 'society'. Girlie bars will probably continue but be even further restricted re where they can operate. 

You're just discussing it from an offer-side perspective. I think the main question is, will the demand still be there for this kind of entertainment? Will a generation that grew up with internet and with having things instantaneously prefer to pay overpriced drinks so he can just chat and observe a guy and only after off him when if he goes online he can get a guy straight to his bed within 5-10 minutes (paid or not).

I know that for most of the people in here is definitely worth it but taste do change. If the demand stays strong then no matter how expensive rent becomes or how strict the police can be, bars will still operate or new ones will open, same as with gay saunas. If the demand starts to disappear than go-gp bars might just end up like those gay porn video stores. I'm sure some of the old timers in here have probably fond memories and stories of them, but hard to justify their existence nowadays.

[vinapu]

23 hours ago, Ruthrieston said:

 

As for any hope of democracy returning to Thailand, I simply cannot see the army ever relinquishing their absolute grip on power.

This is what our generation thought about communists in USSR and somehow it happened. 

 

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, hojacat said:

You're just discussing it from an offer-side perspective. I think the main question is, will the demand still be there for this kind of entertainment? Will a generation that grew up with internet and with having things instantaneously prefer to pay overpriced drinks so he can just chat and observe a guy and only after off him when if he goes online he can get a guy straight to his bed within 5-10 minutes (paid or not).

I know that for most of the people in here is definitely worth it but taste do change. If the demand stays strong then no matter how expensive rent becomes or how strict the police can be, bars will still operate or new ones will open, same as with gay saunas. If the demand starts to disappear than go-gp bars might just end up like those gay porn video stores. I'm sure some of the old timers in here have probably fond memories and stories of them, but hard to justify their existence nowadays.

Correct. And I agree the "offer side" (supply) is dependent almost exclusively on demand. And if the demand reduces to the point where profits cannot be made, those go-go bars which depend on them cannot continue. Of course not all are dependent on profit.

Notably the one gay world-class facility where profit was far from the motivating objective and which Bangkok enjoyed for almost 30 years was Babylon sauna. It was conceived, designed and looked after by a very wealthy Thai from a very wealthy family who wanted a place for gay men - initially gay Thai men - to congregate. It was widely reported that it did not operate to make money. It closed, as I understand, only because he moved to Chiang Mai. But I do know that that large plot of land, which included at least one other property, in one of the most expensive parts of the city has been sold. Sad!

[revengeboo]

4 hours ago, hojacat said:

You're just discussing it from an offer-side perspective. I think the main question is, will the demand still be there for this kind of entertainment? Will a generation that grew up with internet and with having things instantaneously prefer to pay overpriced drinks so he can just chat and observe a guy and only after off him when if he goes online he can get a guy straight to his bed within 5-10 minutes (paid or not).

I know that for most of the people in here is definitely worth it but taste do change. If the demand stays strong then no matter how expensive rent becomes or how strict the police can be, bars will still operate or new ones will open, same as with gay saunas. If the demand starts to disappear than go-gp bars might just end up like those gay porn video stores. I'm sure some of the old timers in here have probably fond memories and stories of them, but hard to justify their existence nowadays.

The significance of our human senses — touch, taste, and smell — cannot be understated, especially in environments like saunas, bathhouses, or  even GoGo / MB bars. These experiences are deeply immersive and remain unmatched by current technology or even virtual reality type future tech. While mobile applications offer convenient features, such as selecting from an unlimited range of categories and boxes, they cannot replicate the full sensory engagement of these physical spaces.

Regarding saunas, they have all pretty much closed in my area so your point is taken. However, it's important to recognize that such venues have a long history, dating back millennia. Although hardcore commercial brothels ie sex clubs maybe closing, Korean Spas and similar establishments continue to thrive by me. The decline of the former is likely related to issues like drug use, disease, and bad service.  I'd imagine such establishments ebb and flow around the world over a long sweep of time.

Can we please get a global renaissance up in here?

[PeterRS]

8 hours ago, reader said:

If this is the case, all the more reason for Thailand to hold on to its go-go bars. I said earlier that the country has a lock on the reputation and that's a good thing, akin to having the last credible supply of plutonium. Why would you want to voluntarily destroy it?

You and I will always be on opposite sides of this discussion. With respect I have never advocated the closure of gay go-go bars. I certainly would be delighted if present and future generations could enjoy the go-go bar scene as we did decades ago. What I have done is report what I "believe" will happen and why. 

How many gay go-go bars existed 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years ago? Many more than presently exist, for sure. I beieve that the shows in those which remain in Bangkok are often quite full. Great! But how many attend the bars to see the go-go dancers beween the times of opening and the shows? No bar can exist financially if it only makes money for drinks during the shows and some off fees. Now I read somewhere recently (perhaps in this forum) that one bar I believe in Pattaya is charging 800 Bt. as the off fee.

The point is that the customer base continues to fall off and the new customers, especially those from north and south-east Asia, are either women or are generally much more interested in the sauna and disco experience. I can't see how many gay men and women around the world will be attracted to visit Thailand only because it has a "lock on" a gay go-go bar experience that is, for a multitude of reasons, slowly dying.

[Mavica]

25 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

I can't see how many gay men and women around the world will be attracted to visit Thailand only because it has a "lock on" a gay go-go bar experience that is, for a multitude of reasons, slowly dying.

I think you're right.

[macaroni21]

43 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Now I read somewhere recently (perhaps in this forum) that one bar I believe in Pattaya is charging 800 Bt. as the off fee.

It was me. First hand report from X-boys Pattaya, confirmed directly with two mamasans 15 minutes apart. Madness. I have also checked with two other bars, and they're at 500 baht off fee which, if I recall correctly, is 100 more than last year.

[macaroni21]

There are plenty of good arguments above about future prospects and there's little I can add except to say that supply and demand, while important, aren't the only factors.

Demand can be elastic relative to price and ease of access.

Supply is highly sensitive to many external factors like social, political and religious pressures. Then, of course there are the usual issues to do with rent, grease money and availability of labour.

With so many factors against it, and demand remaining flat (optimistically), thus incapable of overcoming negative factors, I fear the crystal ball darkens.

As can be seen in lots of other countries, there can be demand, but no viable supply, that's why gogo bars are quite unique to Thailand, as far as Asia is concerned. Thus the tourist traffic. For now at least.

Another angle is worth mentioning. Given the liberal Thai attitude and huge profits to be made from the girl gogo trade, that business is unlikely to be tampered with by politicians and social Karens. They may try (as they have) but are unlikely to succeed. The good thing going for Thailand is that they do not make too much of a moral distinction between hetero and homo, so if girl gogo bars cannot be eradicated and will be teeth-clenched tolerated, there will remain space for boy bars.

That leaves economic pressures....

[Olddaddy]

Go Go bars of the future will have to offer something, Strip shows,dancers etc 

That Wild West go go has karaoke 🎤 after midnight with the boys dancing to your singing

They have to change to survive 

I can't see honestly there will be many Go Go bars in Pattaya in a few years unless they can change with the times 

[reader]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Correct. And I agree the "offer side" (supply) is dependent almost exclusively on demand. And if the demand reduces to the point where profits cannot be made, those go-go bars which depend on them cannot continue. Of course not all are dependent on profit.

Notably the one gay world-class facility where profit was far from the motivating objective and which Bangkok enjoyed for almost 30 years was Babylon sauna. It was conceived, designed and looked after by a very wealthy Thai from a very wealthy family who wanted a place for gay men - initially gay Thai men - to congregate. It was widely reported that it did not operate to make money. It closed, as I understand, only because he moved to Chiang Mai. But I do know that that large plot of land, which included at least one other property, in one of the most expensive parts of the city has been sold. Sad!

One of the areas we can agree upon. I did get to meet the owner on one occasion (he held court nightly at a large table in the back of Babylon's main restaurant). At that time it was certainly operating in the red with 300-400 paying 280 baht on weekends to pass through the turnstile. Drinks and food were.f course, extra. No cash was involved; you wore a numbered band on your wrist or ankle and settled accounts before you passed through another turnstile on the  way out. Unless there wwas a special event, week day admission was 260 as I recall.

Babylon was enjoying its heyday about the time I first discovered it in the early 2000's. Beside the main structure (which included the "barracks") there were some studio apartments in a low rise building available to rent by the night. Adjacent to that there were quite a few townhouse type apartments arranged around a central, oblong park, obviously for long-term rental.

Babylon's decline was at first gradual but seemed to accelerate after 2008 or so. It went from being a "must" stop to an occasional one as other saunas opened and Babylon--once billed as one of the world's best--became a large building with high maintenance costs. Its demise was heightened as the once crowds dwindled and upkeep suffered. It was the talk of gay Bangkok for quite some time (even when it was located in its nearby original building in the 90's).

7 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Another angle is worth mentioning. Given the liberal Thai attitude and huge profits to be made from the girl gogo trade, that business is unlikely to be tampered with by politicians and social Karens. They may try (as they have) but are unlikely to succeed. The good thing going for Thailand is that they do not make too much of a moral distinction between hetero and homo, so if girl gogo bars cannot be eradicated and will be teeth-clenched tolerated, there will remain space for boy bars.

I find that to be a logical way of viewing the future.As in any business ,if the demand is constant there will continue to be accommodation

7 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

It was me. First hand report from X-boys Pattaya, confirmed directly with two mamasans 15 minutes apart. Madness. I have also checked with two other bars, and they're at 500 baht off fee which, if I recall correctly, is 100 more than last year.

2 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Go Go bars of the future will have to offer something, Strip shows,dancers etc 

That Wild West go go has karaoke 🎤 after midnight with the boys dancing to your singing

They have to change to survive 

I can't see honestly there will be many Go Go bars in Pattaya in a few years unless they can change with the times 

Although I have no first-hand knowledge of Pattaya, I agree with both Macaroni21 and Old Daddy: 800 is pushing the envelope for these venues and I'd expect most people to vote with their feet. This seems beyond the point where the scales tip to the on-line supply.

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

How many gay go-go bars existed 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years ago? Many more than presently exist, for sure. I beieve that the shows in those which remain in Bangkok are often quite full. Great! But how many attend the bars to see the go-go dancers beween the times of opening and the shows? No bar can exist financially if it only makes money for drinks during the shows and some off fees..

Actually, more than you might think because that's when you have the best opportunity to sit down with the boy(s) of your choice at a time when they're presence isn't required on stage. Some customers come early--with no intention of seeing the show--just to have their pick before they're offed. And keep in mind that the bars have two, and sometimes three, shows a night now.

And although I agree that that are far less go-go's than 20 or 30 years ago, what's pertinent is what they have now and are they doing sufficient business to satisfy the owners. During the covid and post-covid period, one new bar opened and later closed (New Twlight, aka Queens Club). A new bar has opened a few months ago (SOL) in Patpong 2. Time will tell if it survives. But I wouldn't worry about elites or other non-business factors. This is, after all, Thailand.