Is the gay scene dying off ?

[Department_Of_Agriculture]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:00 AM, PeterRS said:

Found this map of Pattaya's Sunee Plaza dated 2010. The gay go-go bars are marked in blue. I can see 13 - and this was before Winner Boys opened. Of the rest, I think only Nice Boys continues to exist. I was only rarely in Pattaya but did sometimes enjoy walking through the Plaza and stopping at Yaya's bar for a drink before popping into two different types of go-go bars - Krazy Dragon and Happy Boys. I really wonder: how did it all disappear so quickly?

Sunee Plaza began to die when the police finally began to get serious about cracking down on underaged boys in the bars and those who used to hang around that area, generally. No, not all the bars in Sunee offered underaged boys and not everyone who went there was into that sort of thing but Sunee was a hotbed of that kind of thing. Once the police started cracking down in earnest, the gaps started showing very quickly. As the lights went out for good in some bars and as many "Sunee fans" stopped coming, the place lost momentum. Good riddance. Sunee was a shit hole and far cry from what Boyztown or Soi Twilight were.

It is sad that on another forum, which now largely consists of the owner speaking to himself, that period is still described as the good old days, with a little nudge and wink.

[macaroni21]

Despite statistics showing a recovery of tourism arrivals - there were over 27 million in 2023 which is roughly similar to the annual numbers of 2013 (26.5 million) - the traffic in Hotmale last night was pretty bad. At about 11pm while the show was in progress, there were only 10 customers. Earlier, on my way in, I noticed that their outdoor bars had just 2 customers.

[Olddaddy]

5 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Despite statistics showing a recovery of tourism arrivals - there were over 27 million in 2023 which is roughly similar to the annual numbers of 2013 (26.5 million) - the traffic in Hotmale last night was pretty bad. At about 11pm while the show was in progress, there were only 10 customers. Earlier, on my way in, I noticed that their outdoor bars had just 2 customers.

Gay bars will have to survive the next generation

It will different,there probably won't be old fat guys hobbling on walking sticks  with orange wigs , it will be a different type wanting things differently , only you can elaborate

Things have changed remarkablly in the last 20 years in clients and what they want 

Skinny young boys with tatts is going out of fashion it's just not politically correct for this new generation 

Fast forward 10 years and most of  these older miserable gay farangs will be gone and good riddance I say , have a look at the gay farangs visiting in their 40's and 50's ,much happier guys  than the miserable ones in their 70's who look miserable,are unhappy faces most look far older than their ages  and don't like to get with the times , photos ,tiktok etc 

 

Times change and I'm happy ,I will be still here in 20 years in probality ,I wonder if I will be still writing on this forum in 20 years?😳

I wonder what Pattaya will be like the expats will be much happier 

[floridarob]

5 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Skinny young boys with tatts is going out of fashion it's just not politically correct for this new generation 

Next you'll be yelling "Get Off My Lawn"

Where did you come up with this brainstorm.....maybe it's you that's out of touch?

When you opening your bar?

[Boy69]

2 hours ago, floridarob said:

Next you'll be yelling "Get Off My Lawn"

Where did you come up with this brainstorm.....maybe it's you that's out of touch?

When you opening your bar?

He was about to open a bar but regretted when he discovered that most of his cliente will be" the miserable ones in their 70's who look miserable,are unhappy faces most look far older than their ages  and don't like to get with the times "... LOL

[reader]

8 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

I will be still here in 20 years in probality ,I wonder if I will be still writing on this forum in 20 years?😳

I wonder what Pattaya will be like the expats will be much happier 

Looking back to the Thailand of 20 year ago or 20 years into the future isn't going to help you appreciate what it offers today, especially if you dwell on the misery you perceive in others.

Loneliness is endemic for most older men. Health and financial issues weigh heavily.

I'm certainly in that age group. I travel to Thailand as often as I can because it renews my spirits and my outlook. Without it I fear I might too succumb to misery.

Instead of rejecting the miserable, try smiling toward them. Who knows when some day any one of us may find ourselves in similar straits. 

[floridarob]

4 minutes ago, reader said:

because it renews my spirits

I'm sure your prostate thanks you too...😉

[Travellerdave]

I first visited Pattaya in 2001 in company with another gay friend. That was just before the internet and websites like this one took off and due to scarce information we had no idea where to stay and where to find the gay scene. However we quickly found our feet one way or the other and enjoyed the exotic (for us ) atmosphere, the amazingly low prices (72 baht = £1), the food and hotels, the bars and gogos (took us a few days to find Sunee) and of course the boys . Especially the boys !. 
Since  then I have visited Thailand numerous times, mainly Pattaya, but also bkk and a few other places. On return home from the first few trips friends and family were very interested in hearing all about my travels (my accounts varied according to the audience). This was before many people became active on the internet and only a few commented about the racy reputation that the country was beginning to acquire. That changed around the mid 2000’s, especially when accounts of under age sex started to appear in the tabloid  newspapers and everyone started surfing the internet. I started to play down my visits and even lie occasionally as to where I spent my holidays.  The gay friend of my first visit stopped going. 

Advance a few more years to the 2010’s and the Pattaya gay scene began to thin out, especially in Sunee which previously contained maybe 10 gogos plus a good number of bars. Contrast that with the booming str night life available to non-gays with girlie gogo’s opening all over, adding to the numerous beer bar complex’s. Visitors from non-farang countries, who don’t visit the gay bars greatly increased. The gay scene much reduced compared with the earlier period pre 2005 (the good old days ?) and gay visitors have become an even smaller minority than previously.My theory is that the unsavory reputation as regards sex and drinking has impacted more on the gay communities. There are other factors of course: the decline of the $ £ Eur against the baht and the.perceived less attractiveness of available Asian male prostitutes.

 

 

[Londoner]

Reader and Travellerdave have said more or less everything I wanted to post and so I'll add just a couple of comments.

Now in my seventies and with my eightieth (more or less) trip only a few weeks away, I can express my profound gratitude to those who led me to Thailand in 1995, provided me with the necessary information to enjoy myself, and of course those who attended to my needs with a smile and, generally,  good grace.

Particularly one who remains the only love of my life.

Consider; some of us lived through decades of concealment, fearing exposure and-at least in my case- suppressing an essential aspect of our character for fear of arrest or public shame.  And then we experienced Pattaya.

How lucky we were. How fortunate I still am. And grateful, even if the vibrancy of Old Boyztown is long since gone.

 

[Shonen]

On 1/24/2024 at 3:01 PM, Olddaddy said:

Gay bars will have to survive the next generation

It will different,there probably won't be old fat guys hobbling on walking sticks  with orange wigs , it will be a different type wanting things differently , only you can elaborate

Things have changed remarkablly in the last 20 years in clients and what they want 

Skinny young boys with tatts is going out of fashion it's just not politically correct for this new generation 

Fast forward 10 years and most of  these older miserable gay farangs will be gone and good riddance I say , have a look at the gay farangs visiting in their 40's and 50's ,much happier guys  than the miserable ones in their 70's who look miserable,are unhappy faces most look far older than their ages  and don't like to get with the times , photos ,tiktok etc 

 

Times change and I'm happy ,I will be still here in 20 years in probality ,I wonder if I will be still writing on this forum in 20 years?😳

I wonder what Pattaya will be like the expats will be much happier 

Unfortunately statistically you probably won’t be here if you’re 60,

in twenty years, and you’re overweight as you claim you are. I hope you’re writing these conflicting post in twenty years as they are entertaining and liven up the board.

Looking unhappy can be unavoidable when you’re older as our faces change physically. Maybe they’re not unhappy, just look unhappy. We do change into interesting characters as we age. There’s a guy I see who looks just like the skinny one in Oliver and Hardy. But he looks very happy.

Theres plenty of young guys here in Thailand that still make me very happy.

[Boy69]

8 hours ago, Travellerdave said:

I first visited Pattaya in 2001 in company with another gay friend. That was just before the internet and websites like this one took off and due to scarce information we had no idea where to stay and where to find the gay scene. However we quickly found our feet one way or the other and enjoyed the exotic (for us ) atmosphere, the amazingly low prices (72 baht = £1), the food and hotels, the bars and gogos (took us a few days to find Sunee) and of course the boys . Especially the boys !. 
Since  then I have visited Thailand numerous times, mainly Pattaya, but also bkk and a few other places. On return home from the first few trips friends and family were very interested in hearing all about my travels (my accounts varied according to the audience). This was before many people became active on the internet and only a few commented about the racy reputation that the country was beginning to acquire. That changed around the mid 2000’s, especially when accounts of under age sex started to appear in the tabloid  newspapers and everyone started surfing the internet. I started to play down my visits and even lie occasionally as to where I spent my holidays.  The gay friend of my first visit stopped going. 

Advance a few more years to the 2010’s and the Pattaya gay scene began to thin out, especially in Sunee which previously contained maybe 10 gogos plus a good number of bars. Contrast that with the booming str night life available to non-gays with girlie gogo’s opening all over, adding to the numerous beer bar complex’s. Visitors from non-farang countries, who don’t visit the gay bars greatly increased. The gay scene much reduced compared with the earlier period pre 2005 (the good old days ?) and gay visitors have become an even smaller minority than previously.My theory is that the unsavory reputation as regards sex and drinking has impacted more on the gay communities. There are other factors of course: the decline of the $ £ Eur against the baht and the.perceived less attractiveness of available Asian male prostitutes.

 

 

IMO unsavory reputation as regards sex and drinking has small impact the main reasons of the gay scene decline are others; Thailand becomes more and more expensive over the years, less Thai guys are willing to go as money boys, authorities restrictions on entertainment venues ( especially limiting the closure time ) , Falang countries are much tolerate to gays and have much more gay local venues and the most important thing the younger gay generation are behaving more like regular tourists and are not limiting themselves to 'gay ghettos'.

 

[Travellerdave]

Boy69>………../

i do agree with a lot of what you say above but would add the following:

- the unsavory reputation certainly impacted on me, but maybe you are right that overall perhaps it’s a minor factor

- Yes Thailand has become less of a bargain destination but that does not seem to have affected  the booming str sex/drinking scene. Estimates of about 40,000 female bar girls/ gogo dancers/ masseuses in Pattaya currently. Plus hundreds of ladyboy prostitutes. How many boys servicing us gays ?  Maybe several hundred only. Jomtien Complex 250, Boyztown/Sunee 150, Freelance 100. Total 500. Just guesstimates.

- Agreed that Thai guys have many more opportunités for earning a living and I mention the result at the end of my post. I would add that boys from Cambodia/Laos have to an extent replaced the missing Thais in Pattaya.

 

[TMax]

The gay scene in Thailand for me is more the massage shops than the bars, I have never really been a fan of the go go bars (not even in my straight days) but prefer the beer bars for a much quieter drink and socialising with the guys. Travel to Thailand or other places in Asia I like to move around and check places out (museums, ancient city ruins etc) and at the end of the day hit a gay massage shop for hopefully a good massage (or mediocre rub down) and some hot steamy sex. Then I can enjoy the night and whatever it holds. Costs all round are rising just about everywhere and I do wish that I could have found my version of the gay scene in Thailand many years before I actually found it but alas I missed out on what many would say were the good days. 

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, TMax said:

.... I missed out on what many would say were the good days. 

As, far as I'm concerned, good days, are now. Old days were good but as with old shoes or underwear, once gone there, s no use of them. 

[Londoner]

My memories are sweet....and I was  thirty  years younger in the Golden Age. A mere slip of a forty five year-old!

But Vinapu's right; it's good growing old with someone you love. It's good that we enjoy simple things together...a walk on the beach, a nice meal....an early night. Well, to be honest they all are now!

Furthermore, Pattaya may have lost some of its attractive sleaze and a lot of its former vibrancy, but it is cleaner, has better air and beaches, better restaurants, better travel from a better airport. And much else.

I no longer travel Economy. We stay in better  hotels. We eat well. We spend money on clothes- well, one of us does. On a more  melancholy note, an added sweetness results from the fact that we know that this won't last forever and so, as I often say, carpe diem. Each moment together- and in Thailand- is priceless.

[macaroni21]

10 hours ago, TMax said:

The gay scene in Thailand for me is more the massage shops than the bars

True for me too.

Here's my two cents' worth (again). IMHO, it is important to distinguish the Bangkok scene from the Pattaya scene. They have been bifurcating for a long time. The Pattaya scene depended heavily on winter exiles from the Northern hemisphere, and we know where the trend is heading. Pattaya has never managed to be much of an attraction to the gay Asian travellers.

The Bangkok scene is a more complex story. Its three parts: gogo bars, massage, and social-and-dancing locales, are going on separate trajectories. I believe the social-and-dancing venues are doing fine. Business is robust, not just on Silom Sois 2 and 4, but also in places like Fake Club, etc. Bangkok attracts the Asian travellers. To the farang, it may be difficult to tell a Thai apart from another East or Southeast Asian, but eavesdrop on the language they use and it will be clear how much the Asian traveller is contributing to gay scene tourism.

The massage business looks relatively healthy too, though, as with all massage businesses around the world, there is always considerable turnover, i.e. shops exit the business, new enterprises start up. I credit this to the fact that the shops outside of the Silom-Surawong area continue to depend largely on local custom as their bread-and-butter clientele. Tourists are icing on the cake. The shops in the Silom-Surawong area are more tourist oriented, but because of the healthy flow of Asian tourists, they're doing OK.

More importantly, the massage shops continue to attract young men as workers. Understanding why they can attract young men into the industry whereas the gogo bars struggle to do so helps us understand the strategic mistakes the gogos bars made over the years.

The Bangkok gogo business: A part of me thinks their days are numbered. I would say that they are being killed by two things: the tea money and the horrible strategic mistake the market leaders made to expose themselves to the general public through relying on the non-sex-buying customer. Let me elaborate.

Tea money: While I don't have the insider figures, I think this is a key factor in the exorable rise in prices for drinks and offs. Of course, high prices limit sales volume. Tea money may also be the factor holding back gogo bars' reinvention. They don't seem to be able to try anything new, and I suspect this has to do with the terms of the tea money deal. As soon as bar tries to experiment with the business model, the tea-money-collectors will want to charge more.

Exposure: When the gogo bars began to welcome hordes of straight tourists, they basically put a jinx on their staff recruitment. It gets harder to recruit when the gogo boy is expected to put himself on stage for people to gawk at them, even worse then he is expected to be part of an explicit show. The calculus is like this: The boy will do it if there is a high chance of an off. But if the great majority of the audience are only there to gawk, the boy earns little for "shaming" himself. So recruitment falls off a cliff.

Here's something to observe when you're next in a gogo bar. Look at the ages of the performers in the Big Cock Parades or other explicit show items. They are the older ones. Dream Boys', Sol's and Tawan's stable now have a significant number of guys in their 40s. I doubt if they get off'd. So why do the bars keep them on their roster? Because they're the ones more likely to be prepared to show cock. The young ones won't do it.

There is another strategic mistake the gogo bars made. They have left too much of the management in the hands of gatoeys. I think some bars are run as employment-creation platforms for ladyboys. The mamasan's primary objective seems to be creating jobs for her fellow ladyboys. Shows with fancy costumes and lip-sync don't attract the the boy-offing customer. They attract the gawkers, which then reduces the boys' chances of getting off'd, which then exacerbates the shaming the boys have to endure for working in a gogo bar.

Yes, the economic progress that Thailand has made, the rise in wages, have generally made it less attractive or necessary to work in the sex industry. But the massage parlours have no difficulty recruiting. Only the gogo bars. So, economic progress does not explain everything, which is how I came to the view that the the factors unique to the gogo bars - exposure, gawking, ladyboy acts - are the real killers.

 

 

[reader]

16 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

Here's something to observe when you're next in a gogo bar. Look at the ages of the performers in the Big Cock Parades or other explicit show items. They are the older ones.

Good point. I was a loyal customer of Lucky Boys pre-covid. It had the best floor show on biggest stage among the Silom bars. And the rotation could on some nights number close to 50.  I distinctly recall one older guy who was in that lineup every night. That he never smiled didn't help his case. But when the big cock show came on, he was always prominently on display. Don't know if he ever got offed but he did collect his share of tips due to his huge cock.

The other thing I've noticed post-covid is the importance of location. Banana Bar capitalizes on its primo location of Soi 4 that draws a more mixed crowd. It also has a few of the best barkers around.  I prefer the shows at Screw Boy and Fresh Boy which are more intimate but have to acknowledge that Banana manages to rack up the numbers thanks in no small way to the foot traffic on he soi.

[spoon]

1 hour ago, macaroni21 said:

Exposure

I think this is what Pattaya's BBB owner has realized and has been pretty much successful to attract both kind of customers, the offing kind and the gawkers. 

I see 4 different type of staff hired by BBB, excluding the mamasans/waiters. First is the usual, boys available for off. Second, boys who can be hired but unlikely to be offed, but are there doing majority of the explicit shows. These boys are neither has the model handsome looks, or muscular body, nor young ages, but most if not all does sport big dicks and exotic manly look. 

Third are the dancers/ladyboys, mainly for the show, and not for hires. Last is their external hires like breakdance boys, str8, hired only for their skills to attract, gawkers, but at the same time, entertain the offing type customers too. 

Jupiter are slowly moving towards this too but they still have their handome and muscular guys doing the shows, though i wouldnt call their shows explicit, although some exposed dicks were visible now, which is a good improvement. Alas, most of their boys a not known for performing well in bed. But during december last year, they have no issues hiring new boys, most of them still fits into Jupiter standards.

Moonlight and Banana are moving exactly as you mentioned, too focused on bringing customers that would not off, aka, come for the show only. Moonlight shows are way too PG, done mostly by their models. They do have some gorgeous boys, and my offed has been mostly from here, but i would not stay for the show. Not anymore. Even the boy i off says similar thing. Banana is even worst i supposed. I enjoyed their shows but they gave practically no airtime for the small group of boys to market themselves. Granted that none of their boys my type, though i did off a guy there before, those who didnt stay too long to watch the ladyboys one after another, wouldve easily missed the boys rotation.

I have no idea about tea money though, but without it, i dont think thailand will have a very vibrant red light district. If all the BIB are str8 as a ruler, enforcing the law and are not corrupt, thailand will be a family vacation place that their tourism minister is dreaming about lol. 

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, Londoner said:

Each moment in Thailand- is priceless.

What a coincidence ! This morning I woke up before 7 as my bed warmer wanted to go to the gym early and sent some message to my sister. She, being aware about time difference, responded with comment " why you are up so early", my response was exactly as, quoted above. Not that she is aware about why I' m so happy here, he, he. 

[macaroni21]

9 hours ago, reader said:

The other thing I've noticed post-covid is the importance of location. Banana Bar capitalizes on its primo location of Soi 4 that draws a more mixed crowd. 

I am pretty sure Banana Bar pays a much higher rent than the Patpong Soi 2 places. But as @spoon pointed out, it is almost all cabaret now, with

 

7 hours ago, spoon said:

practically no airtime for the small group of boys to market themselves

... which is fine if that's what the location and traffic wants. Won't surprise me if they decide to be a mini-Tiffany and drop the rent boys part of the business altogether.

[Keithambrose]

17 hours ago, reader said:

Good point. I was a loyal customer of Lucky Boys pre-covid. It had the best floor show on biggest stage among the Silom bars. And the rotation could on some nights number close to 50.  I distinctly recall one older guy who was in that lineup every night. That he never smiled didn't help his case. But when the big cock show came on, he was always prominently on display. Don't know if he ever got offed but he did collect his share of tips due to his huge cock.

The other thing I've noticed post-covid is the importance of location. Banana Bar capitalizes on its primo location of Soi 4 that draws a more mixed crowd. It also has a few of the best barkers around.  I prefer the shows at Screw Boy and Fresh Boy which are more intimate but have to acknowledge that Banana manages to rack up the numbers thanks in no small way to the foot traffic on he soi.

I agree re the barkers. The no 1 barker is amazing. I sit outside, with a drink, marvelling at how he gets customers, men and women, to go in. They might not stay long, but if they order a drink, he's done his job. As noted, position helps, they are near the beginning of the Soi, so every has to walk past, both ways. The barker gets customers in who are both entering the Soi, and leaving.

[reader]

On the subject of barkers, I think Banana and Fresh Boy make a concerted effort by putting handsome and engaging guys on the street to help cajole passers by to go in. Because of the proximity of Hot Male's Beer Bar, the friendly waiters also double as barkers for both the go-go and the bar.

In the Twilight days, never was this more on display than at Dream Boy. The ever-watching owner positioned a cadre of barkers outside. From my seat at Dick's Cafe, I marveled how effectively they went about their task, frequently operating in pairs. Their success rate I estimate was well over 60%. Granted many of those came that far down the soi were looking for Dream Boy but many could still be shy about climbing the stairs. Those barkers dispelled any fears by a combination and saying the right thing and gently touching arms  and shoulders. And once they entered it was rare for them to exit before the show was over.

There was an owner who knew his audience and put a lot of hot flesh on display numerous times. The offs were legendary in numbers and you rarely heard a complaint about service.

[bkkmfj2648]

17 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

The massage business looks relatively healthy too, though, as with all massage businesses around the world, there is always considerable turnover, i.e. shops exit the business, new enterprises start up

I comment about the massage scene in Pattaya (Jomtien).

As per the below Supertown Jomtien Complex webpage there are 10 massage shops noted by said web site administrator.  Of which 9 are gay - where the Thai Blind Massage I do not know if they are gay even though they reside within the walls of the complex.

 

I lament about the Jomtien massage scene because it is so disorganized when compared to the super sophisticated way that the Bangkok massage places market their masseurs.  There is practically ZERO marketing for the Jomtien masseurs and near ZERO use of marketing technologies (i.e., Line, Twitter, webpages, etc.)  In Bangkok, there are Line sites for most of the massage shops with pictures of the masseurs with information about their preferences.  Then there is sometimes a booking system via Line or Twitter to obtain time with your favorite masseur.

Bangkok has a couple of EXCELLENT chat and review systems that are enabled in Line.  I joined 3 of them via Twitter, at:

• B_u_X: Massage Addicted - Twitter ID = @Massageaddictt1 - if you agree with his terms of engagement you can become a member for a small fee of 300 baht per year.  Once you pay to his PromptPay, he will allow you to enter into his private Line Group where you will have access to the Chat, monthly .pdf masseur reviews, OpenChat, and promotional discounts and coupons.  Note that everything is in Thai - but I just use Google Translate and I do quite well communicating.  I find the monthly .pdf reviews VERY interesting (to translate these .pdf documents you need to use the Google Translate image translate function for each single page - cumbersome but FULL of very useful information - like how did the sex and/or happy ending go and the related rating of the masseur given by the designated rater).  His Line group (B_u_X Massage Addicted By Bung) has 2,459 members and the chat is VERY active and busy.  see sample screen shot below.

• Massage Insider - Twitter ID = @massageinside3 -  if you agree with his terms of engagement you can become a member for a small fee of 300 baht per year.  Once you pay to his Thai bank account, he will allow you to enter into his private Line Group where you will have access to the Chat, monthly (and sometimes weekly) masseur reviews (note that the reviews are written in Line in the Notes section in Thai - but you just click on the translate button in Line and you instantly see everything in English), OpenChat, and promotional discounts and coupons.  Note that everything is in Thai - but I just use Google Translate and I do quite well communicating. His Line group (M Community) has 2,690 members and the chat is VERY active and busy.  see sample screen shot below.

• Planet Worldz Massage - Twitter ID = @PlanetWorldX - his group is more expensive @500 baht for 1 year.  I have not yet joined - but I am very tempted as I like what his offering is:

1.   Massage reviews in Line with the possibility of xxx photos from the actual massage that was reviewed,
2.   Weekly updates in Line and also on Twitter,
3.   Twitter access to thrilling clips with an emphasis on the xxx parts,
4.    Line group chat access.

I note that the emphasis on the above 3 groups are primarily focused on Bangkok, but with some emphasis on Chiang Mai, Phuket, Hat Yai, and even Japan (occasionally).  There was ZERO focus on Pattaya.

So, my question to all of you is - why is Pattaya SO difficult and disorganized for massages ?

I asked some of my Thai Jomtien based massage friends and they say that the local police in Jomtien/Pattaya have a FIRM control over them and that is why you don't see any of them having personal line profiles, booking systems, massage shop web pages, etc.

Is this true?

If so, why would the local police want to stranglehold the local massage industry in Pattaya/Jomtien when it has the potential to be vibrant like in Chiang Mai, Phuket, or even small Hat Yai - which has 3 massage shops down in the conservative southern part of Thailand??

Perplexed in Jomtien......

 

[macaroni21]

49 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

why would the local police want to stranglehold the local massage industry in Pattaya/Jomtien when it has the potential to be vibrant

Let me hazard a guess: the Pattaya city council or whatever they call themselves is obsessed with making their city a family friendly destination, and they are ultra sensitive to any marketing effort that still makes it look like sin city. Bangkok is more relaxed because the majority of tourists it gets are 'morally upright' visitors anyway, whose primary interests are temples, malls, food, chatuchak, malls, food....

[Jimbillp]

21 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

True for me too.

Here's my two cents' worth (again). IMHO, it is important to distinguish the Bangkok scene from the Pattaya scene. They have been bifurcating for a long time. The Pattaya scene depended heavily on winter exiles from the Northern hemisphere, and we know where the trend is heading. Pattaya has never managed to be much of an attraction to the gay Asian travellers.

The Bangkok scene is a more complex story. Its three parts: gogo bars, massage, and social-and-dancing locales, are going on separate trajectories. I believe the social-and-dancing venues are doing fine. Business is robust, not just on Silom Sois 2 and 4, but also in places like Fake Club, etc. Bangkok attracts the Asian travellers. To the farang, it may be difficult to tell a Thai apart from another East or Southeast Asian, but eavesdrop on the language they use and it will be clear how much the Asian traveller is contributing to gay scene tourism.

The massage business looks relatively healthy too, though, as with all massage businesses around the world, there is always considerable turnover, i.e. shops exit the business, new enterprises start up. I credit this to the fact that the shops outside of the Silom-Surawong area continue to depend largely on local custom as their bread-and-butter clientele. Tourists are icing on the cake. The shops in the Silom-Surawong area are more tourist oriented, but because of the healthy flow of Asian tourists, they're doing OK.

More importantly, the massage shops continue to attract young men as workers. Understanding why they can attract young men into the industry whereas the gogo bars struggle to do so helps us understand the strategic mistakes the gogos bars made over the years.

The Bangkok gogo business: A part of me thinks their days are numbered. I would say that they are being killed by two things: the tea money and the horrible strategic mistake the market leaders made to expose themselves to the general public through relying on the non-sex-buying customer. Let me elaborate.

Tea money: While I don't have the insider figures, I think this is a key factor in the exorable rise in prices for drinks and offs. Of course, high prices limit sales volume. Tea money may also be the factor holding back gogo bars' reinvention. They don't seem to be able to try anything new, and I suspect this has to do with the terms of the tea money deal. As soon as bar tries to experiment with the business model, the tea-money-collectors will want to charge more.

Exposure: When the gogo bars began to welcome hordes of straight tourists, they basically put a jinx on their staff recruitment. It gets harder to recruit when the gogo boy is expected to put himself on stage for people to gawk at them, even worse then he is expected to be part of an explicit show. The calculus is like this: The boy will do it if there is a high chance of an off. But if the great majority of the audience are only there to gawk, the boy earns little for "shaming" himself. So recruitment falls off a cliff.

Here's something to observe when you're next in a gogo bar. Look at the ages of the performers in the Big Cock Parades or other explicit show items. They are the older ones. Dream Boys', Sol's and Tawan's stable now have a significant number of guys in their 40s. I doubt if they get off'd. So why do the bars keep them on their roster? Because they're the ones more likely to be prepared to show cock. The young ones won't do it.

There is another strategic mistake the gogo bars made. They have left too much of the management in the hands of gatoeys. I think some bars are run as employment-creation platforms for ladyboys. The mamasan's primary objective seems to be creating jobs for her fellow ladyboys. Shows with fancy costumes and lip-sync don't attract the the boy-offing customer. They attract the gawkers, which then reduces the boys' chances of getting off'd, which then exacerbates the shaming the boys have to endure for working in a gogo bar.

Yes, the economic progress that Thailand has made, the rise in wages, have generally made it less attractive or necessary to work in the sex industry. But the massage parlours have no difficulty recruiting. Only the gogo bars. So, economic progress does not explain everything, which is how I came to the view that the the factors unique to the gogo bars - exposure, gawking, ladyboy acts - are the real killers.

 

 

I have a slightly different take. Having had a couple of night’s people watching and sort of killing time over busy festive period you see that the gogos in the areas with a large footfall/good barkers are doing really well with a fast turnover.  I observed inside banana and Jupiter that so many (primarily groups - gay and mixed) are in and out in less than half hour. Ok it was the busy season but I estimate a lot of seats see usage by three/ four different backsides over the evening. It’s something they are cajoled to try and add to the ‘bangkok bucket list’. I bet most think it’s a bit naff/seen that done that and wouldn’t come back. The ladyboy element is though vital to that bucket list / classic Bkk entertainment. That’s why the prices are really inelastic.  Whether you pay 500 or 250 to enter/drink you’ll never do it again.  But I doubt the 250 difference stops many ‘having a go’ that one time. 

fwiw this time I found banana bar best all round entertaining and to have some humour/energy to the show albeit too much ladyboy singers for me.  Jupiter definitely has it right at the moment though, great line up and raunchy shows but without the more desperate feel of wham, bam here’s my big cock but with no creativity to it. moonlight needs a rethink, really dropped off but maybe that’s me

I’ll finish by saying Vinapu is our sage leader and has it right.  Variety is the spice of life, and bkk has plenty of that. What other city could offer gogos/night clubs where after a fortnight you wouldn’t have repeated yourself at all?!

ps Marconi, love your reporting and the prose. Please keep educating/entertaining us