Is the gay scene dying off ?

[Olddaddy]

I'm not going to go on & on ,

So your thoughts please ,is the gay scene ( moneyboys)  particularly in Pattaya and in regards to hiring moneyboys starting to "die off " as the next generation get towards retirement age are they willing to pay for sex ?

 

[reader]

Well, if you were sitting or standing in Hoti Male beer bar last night, I think you’d be hard pressed to say anything but a resounding “no”. The crowd—staff included—were a bit raucous,  waiters were getting offed, customers were getting drunk, someone was celebrating a birthday,. The adjacent show bars were doing a respectable business and the atmosphere was festive.

I can only speak of Bangkok, but the older crowd (of which I am one) doesn’t seem to have any problem ponying up the 2K off fees and booking massages at the two dozen plus shops in the area. 

[Olddaddy]

Yes your right,the older crowd ...but let's fast forward 5- 10 years when most on this forum won't be here 

I'm genuinely interested in a Go Go bars business but that type will be on the outer I believe,

The only ones surviving will be the social type gay bars where farangs will meet up together, and even that's pushing it got the next generation in 10 years who may communicate with you by messaging!!!

[reader]

You fail to acknowledge that they will be replaced by those who are now a decade younger. That’s how it’s been from day one. The faces will change but the beat goes on. The need for sex and affection is not some passing fad.

[Finnseventy]

I think it's a chicken and egg situation 🥚

[scott456]

Don't worry, the gay scene will be alive longer than you and I do.

[forky123]

More likely the gay scene is simply continuing to change. Due to the apps there are probably a wider selection of boys available but less bars and massage places. I'd be interested in a study of the number and average age of customers frequenting the apps exclusively and those frequenting the bars/massage places exclusively. 

[hojacat]

7 hours ago, reader said:

You fail to acknowledge that they will be replaced by those who are now a decade younger. That’s how it’s been from day one. The faces will change but the beat goes on. The need for sex and affection is not some passing fad.

They say prostitution is the oldest profession right? so, it was the first one and it's going to be the last one in this world. It's definitely not going away anytime soon. 

Actually, a higher number and percentage of younger people are visiting Thailand and the countries around, compared to when most of you guys where in the 20s and 30s.

Lots of them are enjoying the free company of Asian guys they find online or through bars. Now imagine the same people going back to the same places in 25-30 years. I'm sure that when they don't get the same rate of success, lots of them wouldn't mind splurging a little bit to relive those happy moments from their youth with an Asian twink body next to them.

That said I'm sure most of that transactional activity will take place online. I'm in my mid 30s, and pretty much through all my life I always found most of sex online, first through internet sites and then came the apps. I imagine it's even more common for people younger than me. However, as online shopping didn't fully eliminate brick and mortar stores, so I think go go boys aren't fully going away. There is some advantage in actually seeing and touching your "merchandise" in person, than just ordering it online.

They might change in form and they way they operate but hasn't that always happened? Were the go-go bars in BKK and Pattaya in the 80s and 90s same as the ones we see today?

[PeterRS]

8 hours ago, hojacat said:

They might change in form and they way they operate but hasn't that always happened? Were the go-go bars in BKK and Pattaya in the 80s and 90s same as the ones we see today?

The Bangkok go-go bars in the 80s and 90s were certainly very different. On the other hand, the basic premise was always the same. Get the customer to buy drinks at inflated prices and then pay off fees to get as much cash from that as possible.

On 12/2/2023 at 6:38 PM, reader said:

You fail to acknowledge that they will be replaced by those who are now a decade younger. That’s how it’s been from day one. The faces will change but the beat goes on. The need for sex and affection is not some passing fad.

 I think I'm known on the forum as more skeptical than some as far as the future is concerned. Yes, more and more younger guys will be available to go to the bars in the future. The question for me is more how long will the government continue to tolerate them and permit them to operate. The elite and the army loathe the fact that Bangkok especially has the reputation as the sex capital of Asia. We saw the first major attempts to clamp down on the sex trade in the early 2000s with Thaksin's social order campaigns. SInce then the apps have been doing a good job at weaning some sex tourists away from the bars.

So far, they have survived, although now very few Thai boys work in them - very unlike the 1980s and 90s. But we know the government can, if it wishes, make employment of boys from neighbouring countries even more difficult at the stroke of a pen! We know this is a socially conservative country. I suspect that those many millions who voted for Pita Limjaroenrat's party are like the elite in wishing to see the end of the "sex capital" description. But that is a very personal view.

So generally my view is simple. The government will in future do what it can to drive sex bars off the streets. We have already seen what has happened in Chiang Mai which as a gay destination with gay venues is all but dead, whereas 20 years ago it had a large, thriving and fun gay scene. That may well result in just pushing the businesses underground and out of sight - rather like that which we know already exists for Thais and about which expats and tourists know nothing. Hopefully I am wrong.

[Olddaddy]

Well I can only talk Pattaya, but I noticed on my last visit more younger trendy type Asian guys as customers  of bars in Jomtien but not a customer of prostitutes

Seems the ones I spoke to ,wearing the trendy clothes and expensive t shirts were just passing a visit into Pattaya for a few days from Bangkok ,most were from Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong etc 

They can meet free guys on the apps for sex so young Asians wernt their preference when they were even younger then the moneyboys

The old guys farang with the Zimmer frames are dying off ,many had had attitudes 

Although I was surprised last visit to see a elderly farang with a orange wig still hobbling along ,he looked the same last time I saw him 20 years ! 

Time will tell if these Go Go bars in Pattaya will be around in 10 years time if they are not willing to change business model

In other words they need entertainment 

 

[10tazione]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

we know already exists for Thais and about which expats and tourists know nothing.

I must conclude you became a Thai now 😁

[Travellerdave]

Yes the gay scene in Pattaya is now just a shadow of what it was when I discovered the place in year 2000 and 2001, when it offered a proliferation of bars and gogos. I just hope it lingers on for a few more years to cater for myself and other gay sex tourists and our liking for Asian boys.

[reader]

16 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Although I was surprised last visit to see a elderly farang with a orange wig still hobbling along ,he looked the same last time I saw him 20 years !

We all should be so well preserved 🙂

[Olddaddy]

That guy looked the same as I last saw him in 2004 , maybe a new wig though 😂

I wonder if I'm right here in that many that were expats in Pattaya Sunee era have gone ?

I would imagine so , I can think of a lot.Old Bernard in Sunee imagine he is gone , 

What about Crabby who owned Corner Bar ,mind you he was young though , so guess he will be back some day , I hope so 

Im thinking though most aren't around ,so wonder what the new generation of gay retired farangs are like ???

The new generation of gay  retirees must be a lot better than the old miserable lot that used to inhabit Sunee in the early 2000's surely 

Some were a angry miserable lot , compare them old guys back in the 1990's to gay retirees now 

We are a lot fitter and look better ,less Zimmer frames!

[reader]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

The question for me is more how long will the government continue to tolerate them and permit them to operate. The elite and the army loathe the fact that Bangkok especially has the reputation as the sex capital of Asia.

I agree that there’s an influential minority that share that view. However, Thailand has likewise never been more conscious of the flip side of that argument. At the moment it has a lock on benefit of that reputation: the significant disposal income that represents and they’re not eager to lose it. They will hold their nose and take the money. 

 

[reader]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So far, they have survived, although now very few Thai boys work in them - very unlike the 1980s and 90s. 

That can change in a heartbeat if the economy undergoes another 90’s era depression.

[hojacat]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

We saw the first major attempts to clamp down on the sex trade in the early 2000s with Thaksin's social order campaigns. SInce then the apps have been doing a good job at weaning some sex tourists away from the bars.

Yeah, they tried but even then they weren't able to shut it down. Why? Because there was too much money to be made by that very same elite. so, I don't government intervention as the main factor in the change of BKK's gay scene. It's not like Thai society has become more conservative, actually the opposite is true, especially among young people. Plus, that kind of crackdown would have a much higher global resonance today that they had more than 20 years ago. It would definitely scare lots of people.

I still think that  actually "market" forces will  drive the change. Even among the gay  tourist crowd, westerners represent a much smaller percentage compared to 30-40 years ago. It's the Asian, primarily the Chinese, that make up the majority. so, it's only logical that a lot of venues will cater to their taste and way of doing things.

[hojacat]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So far, they have survived, although now very few Thai boys work in them - very unlike the 1980s and 90s.

Isn't that the same reason you see mostly foreigners working in certain industries like fast food, constructions, etc even in Western countries?! Owners prefer foreign workers with sometimes dubious work permits, so that they can pay them less, offer no benefits and have bigger control. If thy government cracks down on immigrants then those owners will have to offer more to attract the local boys if they want to stay in business. so I think that's because of economical reasons, instead of cultural ones. I'm sure there are plenty of local boys working as freelancers online.

[PeterRS]

18 hours ago, hojacat said:

Isn't that the same reason you see mostly foreigners working in certain industries like fast food, constructions, etc even in Western countries?

Sorry I just can’t agree with that. As has been stated several times before in this forum, the main reason is the improved economic opportunities for upcountry boys who used to supply most of the gogo bars as a result of Thailand’s considerable economic gains since the 1997 Asian Economic crisis. No longer do most have to work in the rice paddies or do other low paid work in the villages. Escalating rates of HIV and greater emphasis (no more alas) on health education may also have had something to do with it. 
 

I suspect bar owners would prefer more Thais to foreigners, many of whom are here illegally - but that’s just my guess. Another guess is that if there is a major clampdown on undocumented foreigners working in bars, I can’t see more Thai’s jumping in to take their place, even in the case of an economic recession as @reader has suggested. I reckon the apps will have done their job by then and the boys will prefer telephone dates to nightly parading and offs in bars.

[hojacat]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

Sorry I just can’t agree with that. As has been stated several times before in this forum, the main reason is the improved economic opportunities for upcountry boys who used to supply most of the gogo bars as a result of Thailand’s considerable economic gains since the 1997 Asian Economic crisis. No longer do most have to work in the rice paddies or do other low paid work in the villages. Escalating rates of HIV and greater emphasis (no more alas) on health education may also have had something to do with it. 
 

I suspect bar owners would prefer more Thais to foreigners, many of whom are here illegally - but that’s just my guess. Another guess is that if there is a major clampdown on undocumented foreigners working in bars, I can’t see more Thai’s jumping in to take their place, even in the case of an economic recession as @reader has suggested. I reckon the apps will have done their job by then and the boys will prefer telephone dates to nightly parading and offs in bars.

 I believe we are saying the same thing. The owners might prefer Thai boys as it means less hassle with the police because of their immigration status, but on the other hand they enjoy the lower price they can pay to this immigrants compared to Thai guys. Yes, the economy has improved, so guys from Issan and other provinces can come to BKK and work in hotels and malls, but offer them 5-6 times that they are making in those places, and a good number will parade for you however you like.
I mean , lots of them are already prostituting themselves online for some extra money. Also, personally witnessing each time I'm in Thailand, the amount of bb sex happening with the under-25 crowd (and I'm talking about free sex) I don't feel there is an STD panic going on right now within the young people in there, much less so worrying about HIV.

What I think happened is: there is definitely a contraction in the demand for go-go bars. As the first post of this thread said, go-go bars are not as popular as they used to.

So, owners can't really increase their price, or risk alienating even more customers, especially given the high availability of guys online. The large numbers of Burmese, Laos and Cambodians  has really served as safety valve for them. Afterall, most customers in those bars can't even tell the difference if the guy is Thai or not.

So, I still think it has mostly to do with economic reasons and not really because of any big cultural or sociological changes in the mores of Thai society. However other long-time residents of Thailand can chip in with their thoughts.

[Londoner]

Don't forget the impact of birth-control; on rural families. Large families fuelled the journey to Pattaya; the fifth and sixth child could not be supported at home.  Condoms became widely available, in part due to the work of a guy whose name I can't recall....you, know, the one who owned the restaurant called Cabbages and Condoms.

A true Thai hero.

[reader]

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I suspect bar owners would prefer more Thais to foreigners, many of whom are here illegally - but that’s just my guess.

You’ve told us that it’s been years since you’ve been in a gay bar and I take you at your word. I’m just winding down a two-month visit. I visit massage shops in Silom or Saphan Kwai daily. Every evening I’m circulating around Silom and have a pretty good handle on the gay scene for lack of a better phrase.

The boys I’ve come to know are not here illegally. They make their regular border runs to keep their passports current.

The bar scene has evolved. The biggest change was not the result of lack of business but the sale and redevelopment of Soi Twilight. Many of the bars migrated to Patpong 2 and Soi 4.

I believe that the bar owners like the variety the ASEAN boys bring to the table. Certainly the customers do.

There is certainly no denying that sites like Grindr have altered the dating scene and will continue to do so. But there’ll always be enough of people like me who want to see the product up close and personal. 

As for the Army hating the gay scene, I don’t buy it. I spent time in the army and found as many opportunities to meet like-minded people as in civilian life—perhaps even more. Think about it. There were 49-60 young men living in tight quarters and training hard together. No body talked about it but they sure as hell did it.

I don’t worry about the elites turning on the gay community. All they want is grandchildren and Thai men can provide those and still engage in other pursuits.

 

 

[PeterRS]

16 hours ago, reader said:

You’ve told us that it’s been years since you’ve been in a gay bar and I take you at your word. I’m just winding down a two-month visit. I visit massage shops in Silom or Saphan Kwai daily. Every evening I’m circulating around Silom and have a pretty good handle on the gay scene for lack of a better phrase.

The boys I’ve come to know are not here illegally. They make their regular border runs to keep their passports current.

The bar scene has evolved. The biggest change was not the result of lack of business but the sale and redevelopment of Soi Twilight. Many of the bars migrated to Patpong 2 and Soi 4.

I believe that the bar owners like the variety the ASEAN boys bring to the table. Certainly the customers do . . . 

I have never claimed to be an expert on the bars today - or even the more recent yesteryear. Although oddly I did walk through Patpong 2 six times in the last two evenings since I had to stay in a hotel on Suriwong while work was going on in my apartment! I noted that the Patpong Museum has moved to lower Patong 2 across from Foodand - and mention this only because there was a thread some months ago which I believe indicated the Museum had closed.

My experience goes quite a bit further back. So I am perfectly happy that those who visit the bars nowadays do not agree with me. What I do know perhaps a little more about is the Thai elite. Not that I have ever been acquainted with more than one of them, but i also know quite a few who I call "semi-elite" in that they aspire to move up the social ladder and perhaps gain a Khunying or a Thanphuying title for their good deeds (which many actually get others to do for them!) 

In voicing my thoughts, I can assure you (should you wish such assurance and many will not) that I have aso spoken to good friends in Thailand, some of  whom I have known for four decades, others more recently. They are much more closely connected to higher ups in Thai society than I would ever wish to be. Quite a few are friends with the writer, author and Asian expert, Alex Kerr. Although American, Kerr was born and brought up in Asia, has degrees in Japanese studies from Yale and in Chinese studies from Oxford Universities. With half a lifetime in Japan and half in Thailand, and several major books now published around the world, he has a vast circle of friends, mostly Japanese and Thai and mostly native experts in one or more fields . 

His first book Lost japan won Japan's highest literary award. Kerr is the only foreigner to achieve such a distinction. Afer moving to Bangkok he wrote Bangkok Found. This is no travel guide. More it delves under the surface of Bangkok and Thailand to explain basically what is what and not only why things are what they are but why they are still permitted to be what they are. His chapter on gay and straight nightlife is interesting for it gives a much greater insight into why things like go-go bars exist, why the elite loathe them and why, in Kerr's considered view, they will unlikely enjoy continued success in the longer term.

That book has recently been substantially revised for publication by Penguin in other parts of the world. I have only read the original. For those wishing to explore more of Bangkok and all its glamour, excitement and occasional seediness it's a particularly easy read, but it is difficult not to agree with Kerr's views based on the multitude of those whom he consulted when writing it.

[PeterRS]

18 hours ago, Londoner said:

Don't forget the impact of birth-control; on rural families. Large families fuelled the journey to Pattaya; the fifth and sixth child could not be supported at home.  Condoms became widely available, in part due to the work of a guy whose name I can't recall....you, know, the one who owned the restaurant called Cabbages and Condoms.

A true Thai hero.

His name is Meechai Ruchuphan. He was indeed a hero of his times. In the 1960s and early 70s he realised that the high birthrates in Thailand would mean the country could never develop economically. Since nothing was being done about birth control, he took it upon himself to promote condom use. He quite literally travelled all around the country, demonstrating how condoms should be used, popularising them through condom balloon contests and dropping them from height filled with water etc. He persuaded condom makers to use colours. In general, he took the stigma right out of both birth control and condoms. His two Cabbages and Condoms restaurants still continue to draw customers

50 years ago the average Thai woman would have six children. Now the rate is around 1.6. This chart shows the dramtaic success all due in large part to Meechai.

[MaxBKK]

6 hours ago, PeterRS said:

His name is Meechai Ruchuphan.

Mechai Viravaidya