Israel And The Palestinians: A Nightmare In Desperate Search Of A Solution

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

...I condemn in the strongest possible terms what Hamas has done especially in the outright murder of civilians. I condemn what Hamas stands for. But how Israel is responding is a far worse massacre mostly of civilians, many women and children...

You seem to be ignoring that the massacre of Palestinian civilians is entirely the responsibility of Hamas. They place the missiles they use to bomb Israel in the midst of Palestinian civilians. Do you really expect Israel to sit there and do nothing while Hamas volleys missiles into their territory? Of course not. As is obvious to everyone, including all Arabs, Israel has zero option but to target the locations Hamas uses to send missiles. Then, of course, Hamas wails and cries "Look what the Israelis did!", when, in fact, of course, it is they who are entirely responsible. 

[PeterRS]

5 minutes ago, unicorn said:

You seem to be ignoring that the massacre of Palestinian civilians is entirely the responsibility of Hamas. They place the missiles they use to bomb Israel in the midst of Palestinian civilians. Do you really expect Israel to sit there and do nothing while Hamas volleys missiles into their territory? Of course not.

 

And you seem to forget what Israel has visited on the Palestinians. In just the last year alone, the number of Palestinians killed in the occupied West Bank by Israeli forces is the highest in nearly two decades. As Human Rights Watch has declared, thanks to Israeli actions Gaza is an "open-air prison."

There are no rights and wrongs. Both sides are equally guilty.

 

[reader]

Peter, Peter, Peter. You’re determined to pursue the blame game. Perhaps you’d like to next blame the US for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Or the price of eggs. 🤗

[Latbear4blk]

3 hours ago, unicorn said:

You seem to be ignoring that the massacre of Palestinian civilians is entirely the responsibility of Hamas.

Hopefully, this is just a rhetoric excess. You cannot take away responsibility from the Israelis making the decision to launch those missiles. Indeed Hamas is responsible, but it is not entirely responsible. Both sides are poisoned by hared and dehumanizing each other. 

This is why I am so pessimistic about the situation in that part of the world. It is such an explosive coctel. It is probably the worst experiment of colonialism and imperialism in human history. 

[unicorn]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 

And you seem to forget what Israel has visited on the Palestinians. In just the last year alone, the number of Palestinians killed in the occupied West Bank by Israeli forces is the highest in nearly two decades...

Shameful deflection. I do not condone the action of Israeli forces in the West Bank, which has essentially nothing to do with the mass murder of innocent civilians on both sides by the Hamas in Gaza. Had Hamas merely killed Israeli soldiers, I would have no objection. It's the intentional targeting of civilians I abhor. 

[unicorn]

4 minutes ago, Latbear4blk said:

...Indeed Hamas is responsible, but it is not entirely responsible....

Hamas is 100% responsible. Do you really expect Israel to simply allow Hamas to continue firing rockets at their civilians indefinitely? No you do not. There is NO alternative. Therefore, you know as well as I do that Hamas is 100% responsible. They absolutely know the consequences of firing missiles from their population centers. It's preposterous to suggest they don't. 

[caeron]

2 hours ago, unicorn said:

Hamas is 100% responsible. Do you really expect Israel to simply allow Hamas to continue firing rockets at their civilians indefinitely? No you do not. There is NO alternative. Therefore, you know as well as I do that Hamas is 100% responsible. They absolutely know the consequences of firing missiles from their population centers. It's preposterous to suggest they don't. 

 

There is no alternative to bombing civilians? I can think of several immediately, it just requires that you value those lives enough to choose alternatives.

Somehow I imagine that if those civilians were Israelis that Hamas was hiding among that the Israelis would find A LOT of options.

This statement so de-humanizes the Palestinian civilians being held hostage by Hamas that I doubt there is any point debating. But those Palestinian civilians are people too. Most of them want no part of this either. 

[PeterRS]

6 hours ago, reader said:

Peter, Peter, Peter. You’re determined to pursue the blame game. Perhaps you’d like to next blame the US for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Or the price of eggs. 🤗

Once again it is you who are deflecting and using analogies that bear no resmblance to the actual disucssion. Who brought up Ukraine? Certainly not me! Who brought up the price of eggs? Certainly not me! If you simply responded to legitimate questions based on your own speific statements, there would be no need for such inaccuracies.

And your analogy suggesting that the US supporting Israel was like the US helping the UK with Lend Lease in WWII was totally wrong. Yet you continue to throw out attempts to discredit comments from other posters with little bearing on accuracy! Of course there are pros and cons in every discussion. I make my points and give reasons. I rarely find reasons when you make inaccurate statements - with respect!

[vinapu]

11 hours ago, caeron said:

I suspect because Netanyahu was too busy trying to turn Israel into a fascist state to notice that the Boogey man he'd nurtured for all those years, to ensure he had a boogey man, finally was ready to bite him.

he was too busy protecting illegal settlers on West Bank who are propping his government

[vinapu]

11 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 

@vinapu seems to believe in the biblical eye for an eye doctrine. Do you equate how Israel has treated the Palestinians over many decades with the reactions taken by Israel as "an eye for an eye"?

no , what  I believe it's what I stated already. You don't start war with clear aim what you want to achieve and without hope of winning. I don't condone Israel's response but realize it's inevitable. They can't leave such massacre done with glee without response, that's understandable.  And it will not solve anything as only thing Palestinians have on their side is time

Israeli's treatment of Palestinians in occupied territories as appalling and as harsh as it sounds, they reap what they sow. Nobody can hope for a peace without elementary justice.  My visit in Hebron shortly after massacre at Patriarchs' Tomb was one of  most traumatic sights I ever saw and it was peaceful day. Go figure when is not

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, reader said:

You’d win that faceoff because you’ve been to Tawan far more times than I’ve been to Freshboy. But I If it came down to the battle of massage shops we’d be on more even ground.

my point was that nobody believes  I would be impartial referee in such conflict between bars and very few if any believe USA is impartial in Israels' conflict with Palestinians. Is not about right or wrong , it's about finding just judge . Neither Vinapu nor USA are in conflicts above.

10 hours ago, reader said:

If the US was wrong in supporting Israel then perhaps it was likewise wrong in supporting England in WWII?

 

  If one asked Hitler , probably he would say yes, wrong side. 

Nothing wrong with having and supporting friends, even blindly. This is what friends are for. But that removes impartiality and creates danger our support may go wrong. If I get drunk and demolish Hot Male in rage everybody will tell you , vinapu your friend is uncontrollable asshole and you will be tainted by association. 

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, unicorn said:

...... the mass murder of innocent civilians on both sides...

ever since modern weaponry was invented this what wars are mostly about. Times when battles were fought one-on-one by guys in armour are long gone

[reader]

13 minutes ago, vinapu said:

Nothing wrong with having and supporting friends, even blindly. This is what friends are for. But that removes impartiality and creates danger our support may go wrong. If I get drunk and demolish Hot Male in rage everybody will tell you , vinapu your friend is uncontrollable asshole and you will be tainted by association. 

You’re right about friends and allies. No one wants a just one but everyone values a loyal one. Association comes with the territory.

As our mothers told us, if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

 

This is why I am so pessimistic about the situation in that part of the world.

count me in. 

On another hand I wonder how Argentina will fare in today's elections

[vinapu]

2 minutes ago, reader said:

You’re right about friends and allies. No one wants a just one but everyone values a loyal one. Association comes with the territory.
 

but  real friend may be only guy who has power and authority to tell us we are wrong.

"Vinapu , don't drink that much because you are always turning violent when drunk and you  may land in Thai prison where scores of ass hungry inmates are waiting for guys like you " , this is what true friend should tell when he sees us on a  way of harm., not ' here is one more , I will pay"

[Latbear4blk]

Of course, there are alternatives. The elephant in the room is the extended belief that Palestinian lives are worthless. If Gaza had a substantial White European population, I bet there would be many alternatives. 

But as we can see, many in this forum think that the death of thousands on one side is a reasonable reaction to the ends of a few on the other side. 

OK, this time, it was not a few. Hamas fucked the Isarelies this time. But again, this is a long history, and we know how the ratio of deaths between both sides has been. 

[Latbear4blk]

13 hours ago, unicorn said:

You seem to be ignoring that the massacre of Palestinian civilians is entirely the responsibility of Hamas. They place the missiles they use to bomb Israel in the midst of Palestinian civilians. Do you really expect Israel to sit there and do nothing while Hamas volleys missiles into their territory? Of course not. As is obvious to everyone, including all Arabs, Israel has zero option but to target the locations Hamas uses to send missiles. Then, of course, Hamas wails and cries "Look what the Israelis did!", when, in fact, of course, it is they who are entirely responsible. 

I bet if those kids were White, you would find alternatives.

[Latbear4blk]

4 hours ago, vinapu said:

count me in. 

On another hand I wonder how Argentina will fare in today's elections

I am right now waiting for the vote counting to start. Milei's victory would be disastrous. If you are literate on Argentinean political misadventures, the outcome will be enjoyable, whatever the result of this election is. Even if Milei does not win tomorrow, at least one of the two other political alliances will collapse. The political landscape after this election will radically differ from the last 20 Argentinean years. 

[unicorn]

7 hours ago, caeron said:

 

There is no alternative to bombing civilians? I can think of several immediately... A LOT of options...

OK. So why can't you name ONE? I would be even more impressed if you can enumerate the SEVERAL you claimed to have immediately thought of. 

[forrestreid]

23 minutes ago, unicorn said:

OK. So why can't you name ONE? I would be even more impressed if you can enumerate the SEVERAL you claimed to have immediately thought of. 

Well, one option to consider is a actually take the bull by the horns and launch a ground invasion, after making strenuous efforts to get the civilians to leave northern Gaza. That appears to be under consideration, although is uncertain as to whether Israel carry it out. Hamas are so dug in nowadays that the Israeli military casualties would doubtless  be horrific.

In my opinion it was pretty inevitable that the Gaza situation was always going end up like this, once Israel allowed Hamas to get established  there. I remember when the Israelis evacuated Gaza in 2004. That was not part of a long-term peace plan, it was just a way for the Israelis to make it less painful them to control Gaza and the West Bank. When Hamas eventually took complete control,in the civil war with Fatah in 2007, I was surprised that Israel did not then promptly invade.  In retrospect, Israel should have invaded them, before Hamas had a chance to get to build  kilometres tunnels which they will presumably used to make it very costly for Israel to invade now.

My opinion is that Israel had decided on an "acceptable level violence" policy in regards to Gaza. They decided it was better to have the occasional exchange of rockets with them, then to invade and try and root out Hamas.

That has come back to bit them now, in a horrific way

In fairness, a ground war will probably end up being bloody for Gazan civilians too, but at least the IDF will clear out Hamas.

What to do from there is a good question. 
 

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, forrestreid said:

 a ground war will probably end up being bloody for Gazan civilians too, but at least the IDF will clear out Hamas.

 

probably? For sure will be bloody for both sides and as bloodbath develops nobody can be sure how world opinion and Arab street will react will react. Keep in mind , Gazan population has no way of escaping, that's 2 million people, not 20 000.

What about leaving things as they are and doing what Israelis were always masters of, taking Hamas leaders one by one?. Also will not solve anything but at least butchery will be somewhat limited hopefully

[caeron]

 

I can name them, Unicorn, but it isn't my job to do your thinking for you. Getting shrill at me because you don't want to engage your own mind isn't helpful.

If you really can't think of any alternatives for the Israelis than bombing civilians, then I suggest you do some reading on asymmetric warfare.

Bombing civilians hasn't stopped Hamas. It didn't stop the Taliban. (The US is as guilty of this error as Israel is.)

What it does do is make the aggressor feel good while creating a whole new generation of militants to perpetuate the cycle.

It's a lot like the war on drugs. It has failed utterly and completely, but omigod we can't stop now! Maybe this year we'll achieve what we haven't achieved in more than 50 years we've been doing this.

Israel's been bombing civilians in Gaza since 2006. It is now 2023 and the bombings continue.

How is that working for them?

[reader]

Prior to the Hamas attacks, the current government realized the bulk of its support originated from the far right, many of whom were exempt from military service, and the settlers Vinapu alluded to. Meanwhile it had been losing support from the left and centrist factions. The attacks had an immediate and galvanizing effect that no amount of politicking could have ever achieved. Israel—for the moment—is as close to unified as is possible.

For Hamas, the problem is different. It doesn’t stand for election. It operates as a vigilante movement, getting materiel support from outside Gaza. It’s only stated reason for existence is the destruction of the state of Israel. So how do you go about negotiating with those who only seek your eradication? 

The sole measure of how that’s been working out can only be evaluated by whether or not Hamas succeeded in its avowed mission.

 

 

[PeterRS]

9 hours ago, vinapu said:

 I don't condone Israel's response but realize it's inevitable. They can't leave such massacre done with glee without response, that's understandable.  And it will not solve anything as only thing Palestinians have on their side is time

Inevitable? What is bound to be a massacre that includes tens of thousands - maybe even hundreds of thousands - of non-combatant civilians, including women and children is "understandable"? It's a war crime.

I realise that feelings can be and are in many cases quite strong on this subject. Mine certainly are as readers will be aware. I want to put it in more personal terms. In March last year back in the UK, I met some recent friends of my sister, a Palestinian doctor working in the UK and his Taiwanese wife. They had an adorable little baby. He is safe as he has residency in the UK where the National Health service desperately needs his skills. All the others in his family live in Gaza City - his parents, his two brothers and their families and his sister and her family.

With Israel's warning about an imminent invasion, they all moved to the south of the Gaza Strip. There they found a vast number of people, no food, no water, no proper sanitation, no tents. They described it as hell. So they chose the hell they knew and returned to their homes. At least there they have their own generator and there is a well for water nearby. They desperately want to live, but they realise there is a good chance some or all will die. They have already said their goodbyes. These good people have nothing to do with Hamas and condemn what happened in israel in the most vehement terms. But Israel is likely to bomb them out of existence.

We all feel desperately for the families and loved ones of those innocents who were murdered in Israel. WIll the world feel so desperately for those already being killed in Gaza and those innocents about to die?

[caeron]

A tiny piece of good news in amongst the horror is that Israeli support for Netanyahu is apparently collapsing pretty dramatically. Israelis may be united, but they also blame him (as they should).