Israel And The Palestinians: A Nightmare In Desperate Search Of A Solution

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

 WIll the world feel so desperately for those already being killed in Gaza and those innocents about to die?

No and it never did, including Palestinians Arab brothers. That is source of their  neverending tragedy. Like all desperate poeple thay are turning into terror because they feel they run out of options.

[reader]

11 hours ago, vinapu said:

but  real friend may be only guy who has power and authority to tell us we are wrong.

"Vinapu , don't drink that much because you are always turning violent when drunk and you  may land in Thai prison where scores of ass hungry inmates are waiting for guys like you " , this is what true friend should tell when he sees us on a  way of harm., not ' here is one more , I will pay"

Biden certainly echoed those sentiments during his visit to Israel last week:

“As he wrapped up his 7 1/2-hour visit to Tel Aviv, Biden compared the Oct. 7 assault to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States that killed nearly 3,000 people and he recalled the rage Americans felt and the desire for justice by many in the United States. He also urged the Israelis to remember American missteps after 9/11, an era that left the U.S. military ensconced in a 20-year war in Afghanistan.

“I caution this: While you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it,” he said. “After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. And while we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.”

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Inevitable? What is bound to be a massacre that includes tens of thousands - maybe even hundreds of thousands - of non-combatant civilians, including women and children is "understandable"? It's a war crime.

 

Peter , nobody says or even thinks it's right.

But there are only two options for Israel - eradicate Hamas from Gaza which will end in tragedy for all or leaving things as they are now and trying to take Hamas leadership out , one by one.

[vinapu]

2 minutes ago, reader said:

Biden certainly echoed those sentiments during his visit to Israel last week:

“I caution this: While you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it,” he said. “After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. And while we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.”

Great advice by the friend , Israelis knowing well what  situation is may follow on that but will Netanyahu and settlers listen ? 

[PeterRS]

33 minutes ago, vinapu said:

Peter , nobody says or even thinks it's right.

But there are only two options for Israel - eradicate Hamas from Gaza which will end in tragedy for all or leaving things as they are now and trying to take Hamas leadership out , one by one.

You make it sound as though there are only two choices. Maybe you are correct, but the one which ends in tragedy for all is the wrong one. It is a war crime involving the massacre of a huge nunber of civilians, plain and simple!

[PeterRS]

30 minutes ago, vinapu said:

Great advice by the friend , Israelis knowing well what  situation is may follow on that but will Netanyahu and settlers listen ? 

Great advice indeed, the more so given the terrible and monstrously expensive adventures of the USA after 9/11. A 20-year war in Afghanistan which it lost. A long war against Iraq which not only had nothing to do with 9/11 but which did succeed in encouraging the formation of ISIS, a war that so destablised the region its results are still to be seen today.

Re Israel and the situation in which it finds itseIf, without the ultra-right wing Orthodox Israelis and the militant settlers which pull the strings of Netanyahu's governments (although I suspect Netanyahu is himself ultra-right wing) and also pulled those of Ariel Sharon's government, it is unlikely Israel would be facing the mess that it is in. Let's not forget that Netanyahu has preached over and over again the need for security. As the New York Times reported 6 days ago, "Mr. Netanyahu has presented himself as an unflinching supporter of Israeli Security." Yet he has avoided earlier excursions into Gaza despite being fully aware that Iran was propping up Hamas. If his own security people did not tell him, the Americans certainly did. Well, whose government let the country down in such a dreadful way two weeks ago?

The odd thing about Netanyahu is that for all his bellicose talk over the years, he has essentially been risk averse. Some suggest this is a result of his older brother Yonatan having been the only Israeli soldier killed during the daring raid on Entebbe airport in 1976. He does not want to be remembered as the Prime Minister who presided over the funerals of  masses of young Israelis. Until October 7, the number of israelis killed under Netanyahu's watch has actually been less than under any other Israeli Prime Minister!

Despite all his anti-Palestinian rhetoric when in power, he has not made any serious attempt to make peace. Instead, he has spent much time trying to broker diplomatic relations with former foes like Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations, hoping that they would do the job for him. Now with war looming, he has even stepped back and put the decsion in the hands of a war cabinet involving the national government he has established. Essentially it would seem he is at heart something of a loud mouthed coward.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-gaza.html

[reader]

15 hours ago, vinapu said:

On another hand I wonder how Argentina will fare in today's elections

Argentina's economy minister Sergio Massa has defied expectations by winning more than 36% of the vote in Sunday's presidential election, putting him on course for a run-off contest with far-right candidate Javier Milei. 

Mr Massa's lead was a surprise as many had believed voters would punish him for presiding over a financial crisis.

Inflation in Argentina is nearing 140%. 

With almost all ballots counted, no candidate had received the necessary 45% of votes needed to win outright.

[fedssocr]

I watched a couple of very good documentaries on YouTube in the last couple of days about the origins of the issues. Quite interesting history. It's difficult to see that there's any resolution on the horizon

[unicorn]

13 hours ago, forrestreid said:

Well, one option to consider is a actually take the bull by the horns and launch a ground invasion...

Now there's a preposterous "alternative." Lots wrong with it. First of all, planning and arranging for a ground invasion takes a lot of time. It's absurd to imagine that Israel would just let Hamas continue to simply spew missiles towards their territory day after day, while planning a dangerous invasion (oh, and of course ignoring that if the missile sites are left intact, Hamas could easily target the potentially invading forces). Secondly, such an invasion would be extremely dangerous as Hamas is entrenched in cities they know well, and they have tons of tunnels, booby-traps, and so on. Thirdly, and most obviously, who in his right mind would imagine that a ground invasion in and of itself wouldn't result in ample civilian deaths? And, even if Hamas were to somehow wait around and just leave those missiles lying there, the missiles are still in highly populated areas. Missiles are, to put it mildly, explosive. Or do you imagine that Hamas is going to simply hand over the missiles to the ground troops, saying "Here you go!"?????

[unicorn]

11 hours ago, caeron said:

 

I can name them, Unicorn, but it isn't my job to do your thinking for you. Getting shrill at me because you don't want to engage your own mind isn't helpful.

If you really can't think of any alternatives for the Israelis than bombing civilians...

Since you can't even name one alternative (as I already knew couldn't), after falsely stating you knew several, perhaps you'd do better to keep quiet rather than extol your lack of integrity. And, of course, you know full-well that the Israelis don't bomb civilians. They bomb missile launching sites. Hamas has zero need to put them in areas heavily populated by civilians, of course. The civilian deaths are 100% Hamas' responsibility. Hamas kills Palestinian civilians for propaganda purposes. Bear in mind, that I very much support Palestinian civilians, and have donated thousands of dollars over the years to help them. It pains me to see Hamas slaughter them. 

[caeron]

 

For those unlike Unicorn who are interested in alternatives to bombings, look at:

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/talking-with-insurgents-a-guide-for-the-perplexed/ 

(click download for the full article. The author points out that the costs of this approach are political and so difficult for someone like Netanyahu to stomach.)

For those who would use the counter example of the defeat of the Tamil Tigers, I'd point to this short essay which describes the factors that drove that defeat:

https://sangam.org/understanding-sri-lankas-defeat-tamil-tigers/

With the state backer Iran, those factors do not seem very achievable in Gaza.

Bombings did not work for the US. They are not working for Israel. Americans loved our 'shock and awe", but at the end of the day, it didn't achieve our goals. I imagine the Israelis are much in the same mindset.

[Latbear4blk]

Hamas and Israel will continue murdering innocent civilians as long as there are people like @unicorn who believe that some lives are worth more than others. 

[vinapu]

19 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 It is a war crime involving the massacre of a huge number of civilians, plain and simple!

Cynically speaking and looking back at recent  history you are correct but only for losing side. Winning side will describe it as collateral damage or something equally ear pleasing and will get away with it

Israelis are in double unenviable position as in case of mass civilian casualties they risk losing legitimacy , at least in Western world,  coming from Jewish people being victims of Holocaust. 

[unicorn]

10 hours ago, caeron said:

...Americans loved our 'shock and awe", but at the end of the day, it didn't achieve our goals. I imagine the Israelis are much in the same mindset.

There you go again with the false narrative that the Israelis are bombing Palestinians, or, even more ridiculously, that the goal of the Israelis is to "shock and awe." As my father wisely used to say, there's only been one war which has ever been won with bombing, and that's WWII--and we certainly never want to go there again. Only a fool would believe that a war can be won by bombing. 

Anyone who looks at the facts rationally and impartially understands that the goal of the Israeli bombing is plain and simple: to take out the Hamas missile sites which are volleying the rockets Hamas sends towards Israeli civilian areas. What you're saying is the complete opposite of the truth. It's Hamas which is (unsuccessfully, of course) trying to "shock and awe" the Israelis by targeting civilian areas. This sharply contrasts Israeli bombing, which targets only military objectives. If Hamas puts these military objectives in areas heavily populated by civilians, that's entirely on them. 

[PeterRS]

8 minutes ago, vinapu said:

Winning side will describe it as collateral damage or something equally ear pleasing and will get away with it

The spin doctors on both sides will be working overtime. Getting away with it is a different matter if you massacre tens of thousands and more Palestinians just because you want their elected leaders out. And let's not forget. Who insisted that the Palestinians have elections?

Filled with his fanciful and ultimately idiotic, hugely expensive for the US taxpayer and ultimately doomed notion that he could bring democracy to a part of the world that had all but never known it, George Bush Jnr. took his crusade to Palestine. He wanted an alternative to Arafat and thought (never bothered to check, though) that most Palestinians agreed. When Mahmoud Abbas succeeded Arafat on his death, Bush pressed even harder for elections. The Israelis did not agree for their government knew there was more than a good chance that Hamas would win. Bush continued his crusade in a meeting with Abbas in Washington on January 2006. He was certain Fatah would win. Bush even pressured Abbas to shift power away from the Palestinian President's office to the Prime Minister's. 

I have no idea what idiots were staffing the US State Department's Middle East department at the time, but everyone apart from Israel got it hopelessly wrong. As did Abbas. With egg all over his face and in an attempt to spin the result, Bush worked hard to get the international community to confirm the elections were rigged and called for new ones! It all backfired spectacularly. He even had Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice promise Abbas US$86.4 million in aid specifically to bolster forces under his direct control. Whereas Hamas' traditional source of funds from the USA then started to dry up, it turned to Iran.

Congress was unhappy and cut the amount to $59 million. Bush then got on to his assumed allies in Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Jordan and the UAE to make up the difference. Anti Hamas actions by the US continued for years. Yet again cavalier US actions and the seemingly inbuilt belief that it knows better have regrettably returned to bite it and its allies.

[reader]

Peter, you completely left out the part about how the Marshal Plan caused Europe not to recover in the wake of the Second World War.

There are bigger fish to fry and I hope you soon unveil to us that it was the US and not China that’s responsible for the outbreak of Covid.

And how about rising airfares? I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom of that and explain that it was actually a failure by the Biden administration.

 

 

[caeron]

12 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Hamas and Israel will continue murdering innocent civilians as long as there are people like @unicorn who believe that some lives are worth more than others. 

Indeed. I don't think Hamas is capable of admitting its strategy is never going to work. I vaguely hope that Israel will wake up and realize its strategy isn't either. If at least one of the two parties acts rationally, things might get better, if not good.

Getting rid of Netanyahoo would be a good start.

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, reader said:

Peter, you completely left out the part about how the Marshal Plan caused Europe not to recover in the wake of the Second World War.

What on God's good earth has that to do with the Israeli Palestinian conflict? You do bring up some weird analogies.

As for the Marshall Plan you have clearly forgotten or chosen to forget earlier posts I made on that subject in other threads.

On April 20, 2020, in response to one of your threads Cambodia, Vietnam Take Different Paths in which once again you allege that I am anti-American, I wrote the following in response to one of your posts - 

QUOTE

Reader, you make very good points. I am not anti American. But America has made more than its fair share of foreign relations mistakes, just as Britain, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Russia, China and other countries have done over the centuries. But you do twist facts. Yes, under the lend lease program America helped the United Kingdom in World War 2 before Germay declared War on it. Yet the same program provided arms and materiel to the USSR.  Roosevelt made it very clear it was in America's interest to do so. Similarly with the Marshall Plan, a truly visionary program that rebuilt western Europe in record time. Again, though, this was primarily in the US interests. America was desperate that the advance of the communist Soviet Union stopped at the soon to be East German border. Without the Marshall Plan, so ravaged was western Europe that the Soviet Union would quickly have been at the Atlantic shoreline.

UNQUOTE

I could have added that General De Gaulle had stated on the record he would permit such an advance if the strongly anti-colonial USA did not permit the French to resume colonisation of Indo-China!

If you choose to believe that the Marshall Plan caused Europe not to recover from the ravages of WWII, that is your problem, not mine.

[reader]

That bait didn’t stay in the water long 🙂

21 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

As for the Marshall Plan you have clearly forgotten or chosen to forget earlier posts I made on that subject in other threads.

How can anyone forget when you keep repeating same garrulous meanderings?

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

...

If you choose to believe that the Marshall Plan caused Europe not to recover from the ravages of WWII, that is your problem, not mine.

You may have missed the part in which he was being entirely sarcastic. 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

You may have missed the part in which he was being entirely sarcastic. 

Oh I understood perfectly well! But sarcasm in relation to the present situation in Israel/Gaza is more than a mere waste of words! Constant repetition of my being anti-American is equally so.

[Latbear4blk]

5 hours ago, caeron said:

Getting rid of Netanyahoo would be a good start.

Indeed. He represents some of the worse treats of Israeli (and worldwide) politics. However, the harassment and murdering of innocent Palestinians has been Israeli policy long before he came into scene. 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Latbear4blk said:

Indeed. He represents some of the worse treats of Israeli (and worldwide) politics. However, the harassment and murdering of innocent Palestinians has been Israeli policy long before he came into scene. 

Ariel Sharon who led the 1982 massacre of Palestinians in the Lebanon refugee camps deliberately provoked Palestinians when he became leader of Likud. In 2000 he made a visit to the Muslim Shrine which is one of the key cornerstones of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. He made a lengthy and much publicised visit to the Temple Mount, the site of the Dome of the Rock and the third holiest shrine in Islam, known as the Haram al-Sharif to Muslims. The site is also revered by Jews. It was then situated in Arab East Jerusalem, illegally occupied by Israel since 1967.

Had it been a wholly private visit, perhaps it would not have provoked much anger. But he made 100% certain it was publicised days in advance and he was surrounded by a media horde as well as over 100 armed police and even more soldiers protecting him. He knew full well that this would goad Palestinians into a major reaction. And he was right. 

Following the visit, he stated, "What provocation is there when Jews come to visit this place with a message of peace?" Peace? From an acknowledged warmonger, that was a joke!

Re the 1982 massacres, an independent UN commission led by Irish diplomat Sean MacBride concluded that the Israeli Defence Forces bore reponsibility. The commission ruled the killings a form of genocide.

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Constant repetition of my being anti-American is equally so.

why you are so defensive ? Not liking America doesn't prevent you from liking Americans, the same with Russia/ Russians, Israel / Israelis, you name it.

[vinapu]

12 hours ago, caeron said:

Getting rid of Netanyahu would be a good start.

nothing will ever  start  peace or healing process until last settler and settlement will be removed from  West Bank. 

Blending two nations , each having own scores to settle  , using barbed wires will never work, specially not in such cramped, resource poor,  place.