This is scary

[EmmetK]

17 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

The UN helped to create the State of Israel because it supported both Jews and, specifically, Zionism.

But the UN did not plan for or agree to Israel's occupation of -- and settlements in -- the designated Palestinian regions of the state. 

As you well know, UN resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973), 446 (1979), 452 (1979), 465 (1980), 476 (1980), 478 (1980), 1397 (2002), 1515 (2003), and 1850 (2008) have condemned:

• Acquisition of territory by force
• Permanent settlements in that territory
• Altering the demographic composition, character, and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions

This, I repeat, not anti-Israel and anti-Jewish bias. It's opposition and condemnation of illegal acts taken by the State of Israel since 1967. 

I am Jewish. I support the State of Israel's right to exist. I contributed money to help establish the State of Israel.

But I am NOT anti-Israel and anti-Jewish. I challenge you to prove that I am. 

Nope. You are simply uninformed.
Gaza was the one fruits of victory after the 6 day 1967 war, after Israel was invaded by its neighbours. ANother war that Israel didn't ask for.
Gaza was as much of Israel as Puerto Rico or Texas is of the United States. Territory won in war. Nevertheless, Israel returned Gaza, and the last Israeli left in 2005. So how is Gaza occupied? Occupied by whom? The Hamas terrorists the Gazans voted for?

In 18 years they could have built water desalinization plants, electrical grids, internet towers etc. They chose not to better the lives of their citizens. Instead they chose to build a terrorist state.

And btw, claiming that you are not anti-Israel or anti-Jewish doesn't make it so.

[vinapu]

9 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

 

This, I repeat, not anti-Israel and anti-Jewish bias. It's opposition and condemnation of illegal acts taken by the State of Israel since 1967. 

I am Jewish. I support the State of Israel's right to exist. I contributed money to help establish the State of Israel.

But I am NOT anti-Israel and anti-Jewish. I challenge you to prove that I am. 

You are not alone as I hear that  quite often. ( When I was working my office was located in heavy Jewish area).

I'd say it's pretty normal , not every American  support Cuban embargo, not every Russian praises war in Ukraine, there are Italians who hate pasta, Swedish hating heering , republican British and Polish thinking their football team is disgrace. And yes , Arabs who think their  militants being bloodthirsty beasts. That doesn't make them own nation's outcasts.

[Moses]

Yeah, yeah, and Golan heights. UN issued more than 100 resolutions about Israel's behavior. 

Don't stop. It is right time to tell us what Israel has rights to occupy whatever it needs.

[Marc in Calif]

1 minute ago, vinapu said:

 

I'd say it's pretty normal , not every American  support Cuban embargo, not every Russian praises war in Ukraine, there are Italians who hate pasta, Swedish hating heering... 

Absolutely impossible -- every single Swede loves herring! 🎣

[EmmetK]

5 minutes ago, Moses said:

And Golan heights. UN issued more than 100 resolutions about Israel's behavior. 

 

The UN can issue 1000 resolutions about Israel's behavior.
It only strengthens Israel's resolve. 

And I can guarantee you that regardless of whether Israel has a right-wing or left-wing government, the Golan Heights will NEVER be allowed to return to the old days when terrorists from Lebanon scaled the Heights and reigned terror down on Israeli citizens.

The Golan Heights is fully integrated into Israel. Now and forever.

[Moses]

4 minutes ago, EmmetK said:

Now and forever.

"Never say "never"

[Marc in Calif]

5 minutes ago, EmmetK said:

Nope. You are simply uninformed.

I was born in the same year that Israel was created. We're the same age. 

I completely ASSURE you that I'm not "uninformed." I've followed Israel and the Middle East since the State of Israel was 10 years old. I know ALL of the issues, wars, attacks, occupations, and UN resolutions. 

For Israel, the 1967 war had consequences and responsibilites based on international law and treaties. Israel chose not to abide by those consequences and responsibilities.  

The "uninformed" trope is what know-nothings like you bring out of their closet when they're challenged on one of their cherished topics. It's an excuse -- not a meaningful response. ☺️

[vinapu]

24 minutes ago, Moses said:

 

"Russia launched a massive drone attack early on Friday, hitting critical infrastructure in the west and south of Ukraine... 

.........

Quess how much casualties... zero. But 

 

Not much to be proud of.

While zero casualties is commendable , very few people will believe this is result of careful planning, more of good luck rather

[vinapu]

22 minutes ago, EmmetK said:

 

In 18 years they could have built water desalinization plants, electrical grids, internet towers etc.

only to have it destroyed soon later. 2G is all they are allowed to have 

[vinapu]

22 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

Absolutely impossible -- every single Swede loves herring! 🎣

stop that anti-Swedish tirade, it's slanderous for that 0.07% minority. Did not you hear about minority rights ?

[vinapu]

21 minutes ago, Moses said:

"Never say "never"

Exacatly.

Thousand Year's Reich lasted only 12 years and as I said it already somewhere  Catherine the Great is spinning in her grave that her hometown  is in Poland now and Immanuael Kant wonders how come he is buried in Russia if he  never left Konigsberg. Southern Spain was Muslim country for 700 years and almost all current Hungarian territory was Turkey for more than  100. Even very well established countries like Germany or Italy are in fact much younger than USA, Argentina or Paraguay

[vinapu]

While subject of that thread is scary what we have here are fundamental differences of opinions but still manage to keep 6 pages of civil discussion. Tempers are there but mercifully well contained

I must say we should congratulate ourselves  as topic at hand is not only almost impossible to solve to satisfy everybody  but even great powers and great minds are not  coming closer to solutions that we humble boy chasers here.

[EmmetK]

40 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

I was born in the same year that Israel was created. We're the same age. 

I completely ASSURE you that I'm not "uninformed." I've followed Israel and the Middle East since the State of Israel was 10 years old. I know ALL of the issues, wars, attacks, occupations, and UN resolutions. 

For Israel, the 1967 war had consequences and responsibilites based on international law and treaties. Israel chose not to abide by those consequences and responsibilities.  

The "uninformed" trope is what know-nothings like you bring out of their closet when they're challenged on one of their cherished topics. It's an excuse -- not a meaningful response. ☺️

Blah, blah, blah. More mindless blather.

Ok, then explain to me why you described Gaza as occupied. EXACTLY WHO was occupying Gaza for the past 18 years prior to October 7th?

[vinapu]

Gazans are prisoners who occupy giant call called Gaza guarded by Israel with little of helping complicity from Egypt. 

[EmmetK]

58 minutes ago, vinapu said:

Gazans are prisoners who occupy giant call called Gaza guarded by Israel with little of helping complicity from Egypt. 

They are not prisoners. They control their own destiny.
Look at Israel, surrounded by hostile neighbors on all sides, and in 75 years they made the desert bloom. They are one of the world leaders in industry, modern technology, agriculture advancement. Why couldn't the Gazans make their land flourish like Israel did.

If Gaza is a prison, the jailers and wardens are Hamas.

[Moses]

45 minutes ago, EmmetK said:

Look at Israel, surrounded by hostile neighbors on all sides, and in 75 years they made the desert bloom. They are one of the world leaders in industry, modern technology, agriculture advancement. Why couldn't the Gazans make their land flourish like Israel did.

For 318 billions dollars?

15,3 million dollars per each square km.

[caeron]

1 hour ago, EmmetK said:

They are not prisoners. They control their own destiny.
Look at Israel, surrounded by hostile neighbors on all sides, and in 75 years they made the desert bloom. They are one of the world leaders in industry, modern technology, agriculture advancement. Why couldn't the Gazans make their land flourish like Israel did.

If Gaza is a prison, the jailers and wardens are Hamas.

 

Yeah, what is with all those savages who can't make do with their reservations?

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, EmmetK said:

They are not prisoners. They control their own destiny.

that same way ass is controlling her destiny when lashed.

 You are right about Israel achievements though but it can't be used as argument by advanced countries to snatch parts of less advanced ones.

Moses is also right about aid Israel received but to Israeli's credit  at least they did not waste it and have a lot  to show for it.

It needs to be said though that aid figures are frequently  misleading as supposed generosity covers a lot of shopping , often  military hardware in the source country. As one person I know , involved in aid in some African countries summarized,  "whenever we send aid , our SUV follow". So we are proud about aid our country send to Vanuatu , Gambia or or Belize while in fact sizable  beneficiaries are  our factories and workers 

[EmmetK]

20 minutes ago, vinapu said:

that same way ass is controlling her destiny when lashed.

 You are right about Israel achievements though but it can't be used as argument by advanced countries to snatch parts of less advanced ones.

 

Snatched?  lol. Like the US snatched Texas, Arizona, and California from Mexico? Like the US snatched Florida and Puerto Rico from Spain? I could go on. Gaza was won in a war that Israel did not start. In fact, prior to 1967, Gaza wasn't independent. It was ruled by Egypt. There NEVER was an independent Palestine.

Looking back, Israel should have never relinquished Gaza. It was a big mistake. Little did they realize at the time that within months it would be totally controlled by terrorist thugs. Though if Israel  continued to control it, you can bet they would treat their Arab citizens far better than the two dozen Arab countries treated their Jewish citizens (Morocco excluded).

Eighteen years since Israel walked away from Gaza. It was not snatched, occupied, ruled, etc.

[Latbear4blk]

8 hours ago, forky123 said:

You literally quoted me. 

🤣🤣🤣🤣So true!!!

[unicorn]

9 hours ago, Moses said:

..."Russia launched a massive drone attack early on Friday, hitting critical infrastructure in the west and south of Ukraine...

Well, at least you are informed that your blessed Putin intentionally bombs critical civilian infrastructure, rather than military targets, in violations of international military law. As you therefore know, and everyone else knows, Putin is intentionally targeting and terrorizing civilians, rather than enemy troops.

[unicorn]

10 hours ago, EmmetK said:

...Look at Israel, surrounded by hostile neighbors on all sides, and in 75 years they made the desert bloom. They are one of the world leaders in industry, modern technology, agriculture advancement. Why couldn't the Gazans make their land flourish like Israel did...

I cannot believe that anyone in this discussion could be so ignorant as to be unaware that Israel is the #1 recipient in US financial largess, and could not have flourished to the extent it has without the US's generosity:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-10-10/how-much-aid-does-the-u-s-give-to-israel

"...The United States has given Israel more than $260 billion in combined military and economic aid since World War II, plus about $10 billion more in contributions for missile defense systems like the Iron Dome, a U.S. News analysis finds. That’s the most granted to any country throughout that time frame, and around $100 billion more than Egypt, the second-highest recipient historically...". 

Had the Palestinians received such aid, obviously they would be doing quite well. Also, Israel controls most traffic in and out of Palestine, as well as their power and water. Yes, Palestinians should have recognized Israel by now, and Israel should also long ago have recognized Palestine. 

For its part, the US should not have allowed this situation to continue indefinitely. The US should have put its foot down and said "Peace in this area is in the US's interest. We will donate generously to both Israel and Palestine, and help the two countries flourish, IF AND ONLY IF each recognizes the other's right to exist." I personally can't see this happening with either Hamas or BN at the helm, and the US should make the voters of Palestine and Israel aware that their votes have consequences. 

[Moses]

5 hours ago, unicorn said:

Well, at least you are informed that your blessed Putin intentionally bombs critical civilian infrastructure, rather than military targets, in violations of international military law. As you therefore know, and everyone else knows, Putin is intentionally targeting and terrorizing civilians, rather than enemy troops.

Nope. Power station are legal military targets.

[unicorn]

34 minutes ago, Moses said:

Nope. Power station are legal military targets.

Sorry, but you're factually wrong (NOT a matter of opinion):

https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/military-objectives/

"...The destruction of the object—in whole or in part—capturing it, or neutralizing it must show a specific military advantage. Hence, attacks that will result in solely unspecified or potential advantage are prohibited...".

Civilian power stations are NOT legal targets, but rather terroristic ones. 

[forky123]

Power stations are legitimate targets IF they are used to power military facilities.