This is scary

[Kostik]

Causes horror
Genocide of the Palestinian people

[forky123]

Perhaps the Hamas killing and kidnap spree was pretty stupid. Why give Israel an excuse?

[JKane]

Torn on this, Israel was going ever more to the right, more settlers, more oppression, no sign it might ever get better, I can understand seeing no other option than something violent.  If this topples Netanyahu maybe it did accomplish something...?  

But the atrocities committed by Hamas will have the effect of making everything so very much worse for Palestinians.  And Hamas doesn't care.  In fact their hope is for unchecked atrocities to be returned in kind.  Keep the cycle going, more grist for the mill.  

[stevenkesslar]

9 hours ago, JKane said:

But the atrocities committed by Hamas will have the effect of making everything so very much worse for Palestinians.  And Hamas doesn't care.  In fact their hope is for unchecked atrocities to be returned in kind.  Keep the cycle going, more grist for the mill. 

In this thoughtful Politico article pro-Israel Democrat Mark Mellman argues this is a "redefining moment" in which Americans will now side with Israel more, out of sympathy.  As evidence there's a poll that 42 percent of Americans side with Israelis more than Palestinians, which is up 11 points since the attack.

I think what is most interesting is the opposite.  This is a redefining moment because Israel no longer has a pro-Israel American majority.  If 42 % is the best they can do after an unimaginably horrific and unjustifiable rampage, Israel has a problem.  US voters over 65 overwhelming (60 %) say Palestinians are more to blame for the violence.  Gen Z is as likely to side with Palestinians than Israelis, even after the attack.  They also are as likely to blame Israel as Palestinians for the violence.  And the plurality blames both sides equally.

I can remember a time when if you gave me a gun and a get out of jail free card to kill one global leader, I would have taken out Arafat.  The context was he had just shit all over the Clinton/Barak effort to make peace.  That was the last significant effort.  And it would have left Palestinians far better off than they are today.  It also was Israel's last Labor government.  Times have changed.  I think young Americans look at Israel and say, "It's an apartheid state, doing what apartheid states do.  Why act surprised?  It won't end well for anyone."

One positive thought I had, big picture, is that the US dodged a bullet.  Back when Golda Meir was PM of Israel most people would say the chance of having a Palestinian PM of Israel is about as great as the chance of a having a Black President of the US.  The US has had a Black Democratic POTUS.  And the party most associated with redneck racism (once the Democrats gave up their Jim Crow White supremacist history) now features a dynamic melting pot of Presidential candidates like Haley, Scott, and Ramaswamy.  We have fully incorporated the "outsiders" into the US political system.  I'm proud of that when I look at the deepening horror of Israel.

[EmmetK]

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. They did it reluctantly as many Israeli leaders thought it would be a mistake. Looking back it was.

Gaza was self-governed. The Gazan leaders were going to transform Gaza into the "Hong Kong of the Middle East". Billions of international dollars poured into Gaza. Instead of building an infrastructure to advance its people, they spent the money on building bunkers, tunnels, missiles, and armaments. Instead of building schools, aquifers, wells, and a modern electrical grid for its people, they built a war machine. They elected Hamas in 2007. The last election in Gaza.  Hamas has brought nothing but misery to its population.

Israel must and will do whatever it takes to protect its people. They must prevent another  holocaust of Jews. If that means turning Gaza into a parking lot. So be it.

As for who the American people side with, this poll from the Hill conducted last week pretty much sums it up. Americans support Israel overwhelmingly 65% to 8%

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4255413-most-americans-us-government-support-israel/

 

[Mavica]

The small sample poll “results” in the article linked above are the joke of the day.  “Biden’s handling of the war … “ LOL!  Clueless as to what’s happening in Israel / Gaza.  

Me?  I support whatever it takes for Israel to ensure its continued existence.  
 

Ask the Israelis what they think of President Biden’s rapid response to aid them and Israel, or if they’d prefer a President Trump to be sitting in our White House.  I think we can assume they’re grateful for our current President.

[EmmetK]

So far Biden has been good in defending America's only middle east democratic ally. So has Trudeau. We'll see if that lasts.

Every poll from a variety of sites show Trump far more popular than Biden amongst Israelis.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/poll-jewish-israelis-love-trump/

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/majority-of-israelis-prefer-donald-trump-over-joe-biden-poll-645493

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-22/ty-article/.highlight/survey-most-of-the-world-prefers-biden-to-trump-but-not-israel/00000181-8ba3-d2c2-a3a5-cbbf21fe0000

https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-less-popular-among-israelis-than-trump-but-seen-as-less-dangerous/

There is a reason that Israel named a town a town in their north after Trump.
There is a reason that Israel named the train stop at the Western Wall "Trump Station".

[EmmetK]

ABC-IPSOS poll out this weekend:

Americans favor continued support for Israel but still sour on Biden's performance overall: POLL

A plurality of Americans back what the United States is doing to support Israel in the war against the Islamic militant group Hamas and an additional 29% think the country should be doing even more.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/americans-favor-continued-support-israel-sour-bidens-performance/story?id=103969016

 

 

[EmmetK]

Another poll showing overwhelming American support for Israel's response to the Hamas massacre. This one, by CNN, no friend of Israel, must have Jake Tapper cringing.

Majority of Americans say Israel’s response to Hamas attack is justified, CNN poll finds

Ahead of Israel’s expected ground invasion of Gaza, most respondents said the Israeli government’s military response to the Hamas attacks is fully justified (50%) or partially justified (20%). A total of 21% said they weren’t sure, while 8% said it is not justified at all.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/15/poll-americans-israel-hamas-palestinians-00121619

 

[stevenkesslar]

8 hours ago, EmmetK said:

Israel must and will do whatever it takes to protect its people. They must prevent another  holocaust of Jews. If that means turning Gaza into a parking lot. So be it.

I think most Americans over 65 would generally agree with that statement, based on polls.

Here's the thing.  If turning Gaza into a parking lot involves turning thousands of innocent Palestinian women and kids into scraps of flesh and blood and brain, isn't that kind of like what Hamas just did? 

And can someone explain how this is the only course of action that will prevent a Palestinian Hitler from taking over and sending all the Jews in Israel to Palestinian extermination camps?  That seems pretty unlikely to happen.  Why?  For starters, there's the entire history of how Israel always wins the body count when it comes to how many Palestinians have to die to avenge Israeli deaths.  Israel has, by the way, already won the body count on this war, which hasn't even started.

Holocaust II is an argument one can make.  We know that, because many slightly less unrealistic arguments like this are being made.  Regardless, many young Americans in particular see Israel as an apartheid state.  They don't see this as preventing another Holocaust.  They see it as apartheid.  The idea that turning Gaza into a parking lot is okay seems to be what confirms their feelings.

As far as the polls, since I'm the poll nuance guy, it is 1000 % clear that an overwhelming majority of Americans (and I think people in most countries, where polls have been taken recently) feel the US should "support" Israel after what can legitimately be called their 9/11.  I'd also already read the CNN poll saying that about half of Americans feel a military response to a Hamas terrorist attack is "fully justified."  My simple and I think correct interpretation of that poll is that if you ask people whether it's okay for terrorists to slaughter women and kids, most people will so no.  Emphatically.  And they'll say such a slaughter has to be responded to, probably with military force.

Once you get beyond that, it gets very murky.  Pro-Israel Democrats like Mellman can read what they want into the polls.  But they are on shaky ground I think.  For example, take a guess what people would probably say in response to this poll question:  "Should Gaza be turned into a parking lot, even if it involves the mass extermination of Palestinian women and children, in order to protect Israelis regardless of whatever it takes?"  I think most people would be against the mass extermination of Palestinian women and kids.  Just like they are against terrorist attacks on Israeli women and kids.  

I stand by what I said.  I think Israel has lost a pro-Israel US majority.  What I mean is that there is broad and deep horror about a terrorist attack.  And a feeling that it can't just be ignored.  But is the US behind Israel, "whatever it takes?"  No way.  On the right, Trump is articulating the antipathy to the US being a global cop that seems to be at the heart of Trump's MAGA movement.  On the left, people look at Israel and see an apartheid state.  That doesn't make terrorism right.  But it doesn't make apartheid right, either.  A lot of what happens to US public opinion next will depend on what Israel actually does.

That ABC poll you cited above, @EmmetK, actually supports my argument, not yours.  It says a "plurality" - not a majority - in the US back what Israel is doing.  There are as many different shades of that answer as their are nuances in poll questions.  I think the thing that is very clear is that for Americans over 65, the bumper sticker "whatever it takes" does actually work well.  That's the present, and past.  For Gen Z, who grew up under the Israel of Netanyahu, "apartheid state" is a bumper sticker that works increasing well.  That is the present, and future.  If Israel does turn Gaza into a parking lot, I'll predict both US and global opinion about Israel will shift even more to "apartheid state."  Good luck with that, Netanyahu.

That said, it is all very fluid.  I would not bet on how this plays out, either in terms of the war itself or US public opinion.  I agree with @JKane that it probably means more violence, life gets shittier for Palestinians, and that lays the seeds for even more and worse horror and terrorism.  

I checked to see how polls turned out in similar situations in the past, like the US 9/11.   I find this history instructive.  Israel might want to worry about their 9/11, if they reflect on how the US 9/11 played out in the long run:

Quote

In October 2001, a poll by CNN/Gallup/USA Today indicated that about 88% of Americans backed military action in Afghanistan, and a poll by Market Opinion Research indicated that about 65% of Britons supported having British troops involved.^[15] On the other hand, a large-scale 37-nation poll of world opinion carried out by Gallup International in late September 2001, found that majorities in most countries favoured a legal response, in the form of extradition and trial, over a military response to 9/11: In 3 of the 37 countries surveyed – the United States, Israel, and India – did majorities favour military action. In 34 out of the 37 countries surveyed, the survey found majorities that did not favour military action: in the United Kingdom (75%), France (67%), Switzerland (87%), Czech Republic (64%), Lithuania (83%), Panama (80%), Mexico (94%), etc.^[16][17]

The important distinction I will make is that Americans overwhelmingly agreed that our 9/11 was an unjustified horror, and something had to be done.  I think the US and the world pretty much feel the same about Israel.  Empathy, and support.  When you just left it at that, polls at the time showed the world overwhelmingly sympathized with and supported the US. 

Where things got dicey, as the above polls document, is once you started to talk about a military invasion.  Let alone its consequences years or decades later.  And this was the GOOD war that most Americans agreed about.  Once you get to Iraq, it was a divisive shit show right out of the gate.  Overall, I think Iraq was the single worst US policy decision in my lifetime.  Many commentators on both left and right would agree with me.  Iraq set the stage for a weak and floundering US that is globally viewed as a hypocrite.  Again, all that played out over years and started with the sympathy of the entire world on the side of the US right after 9/11. 

With the benefit of hindsight, if there is a lesson for Israel it is that a focus on legal mechanisms makes sense.  Like kill the Hamas leaders or bring them to justice - if possible.  And any military invasion (like Afghanistan) should have limited objectives and a clear exit strategy.  That said, if I had to bet, Netanyahu's right-wing Israel will want to turn Gaza into a parking lot, permanently.  It will play out as well as the US invading Afghanistan did.  You heard it here first.

So Israel has a lot to worry about when that sympathy fades and the new horrors of an invasion play out.  Good luck, Netanyahu.

 

 

 

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, EmmetK said:

 

Every poll from a variety of sites show Trump far more popular than Biden amongst Israelis.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-22/ty-article/.highlight/survey-most-of-the-world-prefers-biden-to-trump-but-not-israel/00000181-8ba3-d2c2-a3a5-cbbf21fe0000

 

Israel Only Western Country to Prefer Trump Over Biden, Pew Finds

Quote

WASHINGTON – Israel is the only major Western country to view U.S. President Joe Biden less positively than his predecessor Donald Trump, according to a new 18-nation survey from the Pew Research Center.

I know I already used my bandwidth.  But that headline deserves to be singled out.  It makes perfect sense to me that Israel prefers Trump.  Since he will generally support Netanyahu's longstanding "whatever it takes" battle plan, in practice if not in political rhetoric.  Meanwhile, pretty much the rest of the world thinks Biden, like Obama, more often stands for the things people actually respect about America.  I can live with that.

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, EmmetK said:

 They must prevent another  holocaust of Jews. If that means turning Gaza into a parking lot. So be it.

 

Really ? you mean preventing one holocaust justifies making another one  ? Where people living there,  and Gaza is VERY CROWDED place,  are supposed to go ? Incinerator or just be pushed into see to feed sharks ?

Google "Warsaw ghetto after 1943 uprising " so you can see how city ready to be  turned into parking lot looks like. 

If Israel did it , world's sympathy to their cause , including American , would evaporate faster than one can say "Shema Israel".

Yes , they have every right to defend themselves but not by parking lot construction in place where 1 million people is squeezed. 

I wonder if you would say ' so be it' if Putin announced he plans to level of Kiev or Zelensky said the same about Doneck ?

 

[Mavica]

Polls, polls, polls.  🖕

The polls referenced above, from Israel, all pre-date the current situation and Mr. Trump's behavior in response (one of which taken 5 years ago) - from what I observed.  We're living and reacting in mid-October, 2023.  Remember, too, that Benjamin Netanyahu had / has been a strong, vocal supporter of Mr. Trump in his Presidential election campaigns - and the right-wing Orthodox in Israel are very similar in views / behaviors of the MAGA cultists in the USA. 

[EmmetK]

8 minutes ago, Mavica said:

Polls, polls, polls.  🖕

The polls referenced above, from Israel, all pre-date the current situation and Mr. Trump's behavior in response (one of which taken 5 years ago) - from what I observed.  We're living and reacting in mid-October, 2023.  Remember, too, that Benjamin Netanyahu had / has been a strong, vocal supporter of Mr. Trump in his Presidential election campaigns - and the right-wing Orthodox in Israel are very similar in views / behaviors of the MAGA cultists in the USA. 

Wrong.... again.
No surprise.

The ABC-Ipsos and CNN polls showing American support is overwhelming for Israel was taken this weekend.

[EmmetK]

44 minutes ago, vinapu said:

.

I wonder if you would say ' so be it' if Putin announced he plans to level of Kiev or Zelensky said the same about Doneck ?

 

Actually, I would.
If Zelensky's troops went into Russian territory and massacred 1300 innocent civilians, including beheading of live babies, torturing civilians before shooting or burning them, murdering the elderly, including Holocaust survivors, slaughtering 260 teens attending a music festival, raping women, kidnapping children and women, etc. I would green light Putin to take appropriate action. But that didn't happen, did it?
Your Hamas buddies are brave when it comes to mass slaughter of unarmed civilians.. not so brave when it comes to armed IDF soldiers, are they?

A comparative dialog only works when comparing apples with apples.
Try again.

[Mavica]

32 minutes ago, EmmetK said:

Wrong.... again.
No surprise.

The ABC-Ipsos and CNN polls showing American support is overwhelming for Israel was taken this weekend.

You've obviously forgotten the links you posted.

[stevenkesslar]

2 hours ago, Mavica said:

Polls, polls, polls.  🖕

You and I of course view polls differently.  But in this case I would say there's a very long term trend established.  And you don't need polls to understand it.

Bill Clinton wrote one of the best essays I've read about what changed Israel.  Two of the main factors he identified were immigration and demographics.  Meaning the increasing percentage, both through immigration and birth rates, of religious conservatives who are like a US version of MAGA. 

Bill Clinton: Netanyahu killed the peace process

I could not find the longer Bill Clinton essay I was looking for.  Which is a shame, since everyone here loves verbose essays.  😉  But I did find that article, which summarizes Clinton's views.  Note that it is from 2011.  I think it helps explain why there has been less peace and more shit show ever since.

Another thing I don't need a poll to tell me is that Alinsky was spot on when he said "the action is in the reaction."

Clinton lets Arafat off easy in that essay.  There were polls at the time that document that when Arafat said "Fuck peace," Israelis basically did, too.  Goodbye, Barak and Labor.  Hello, hardliners.

While there is no justification for terrorism, period, the fact that Hamas is a reaction to everything Netanyahu stands for is simply a fact, I think.  

So if you believe the action is in the reaction, like I do, you can see where this is going.  It won't be pretty, for anyone.  You don't have to be an Einstein, or even a Netan-yahoo, to figure out that if the reaction can't be peace, somehow sooner or later it's going to be war.  And here we are.

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, EmmetK said:

Your Hamas buddies

Hamas are not my buddies. But I know thing or 7  how so called ' collective responsibility was handled by Nazis in their  occupied territories and I'm more than sure IDF is not planning to repeat such tactics. 

[stevenkesslar]

5 hours ago, EmmetK said:

Your Hamas buddies are brave when it comes to mass slaughter of unarmed civilians.. not so brave when it comes to armed IDF soldiers, are they?

That's actually part of the tragedy.  I feel as bad for the families of hundreds of dead IDF soldiers killed by Hamas as I do for the women and children killed.  Of course, I think a bunch of the IDF soldiers killed by Hamas were women.  I read somewhere that a lot of female soldiers guarding checkpoints were among the first taken out by Hamas.

Authorities name 291 soldiers, 51 police officers killed in 2023 terror clashes

Col. (res.) Lion Bar, 53, a senior officer in the Judea and Samaria Division, from Gedera.
Lt. Col. Sahar Machluf, 36, the commander of the 481st Signal Battalion, from Modiin.
Lt. Col. Yonatan Tzur, 33, the commander of the Nahal Reconnaissance Battalion, from Kedumim.
Commander (Navy equivalent of Lt. Col.) Eli Ginsburg, 42, a Shayetet 13 officer, from Dovrat.
Lt. Col. Alim Abdullah, 40, the deputy commander of the 300th “Baram” Regional Brigade, from Yanuh-Jat.
Maj. (res.) Noy Shush, 36, a local security officer, from Be’eri.
Maj. (res.) Uri Shimon Russo, 44, a local security officer, from Kfar Aza.
Maj. Benjamin (Benji) Tarkinsky, 32, head of operations in the 7th Armored Brigade.
Maj. Chen Buchris, 26, the deputy commander of Maglan, from Ashdod.
Maj. Amir Skuri, 31, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Maj. Ariel Ben Moshe, 27, a Sayeret Matkal commander.
Maj. Avraham Hovlashvili, 26, an officer in Carcal, from Ashdod.
Maj. Ido Yehoshua, 27, an Israeli Air Force instructor.
Maj. (res.) Omri Michaeli, 35, a Duvdevan soldier, from Nes Tziona.
Maj. Peleg Salem, 30, a logistics officer, from Netanya.
Maj. Ido Yisrael Shani, 29, the deputy commander of the Nahal reconnaissance unit, from Ramat Gan.
Maj. (res.) Ram Negbi, 57, a local security officer, from Ein Hashlosha.
Maj. Roi Chapel, 25, a Nahal commander, from Zichron Yaakov.
Maj. Tal Cohen, 30, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Ganei Tal.
Maj. Mordecai Shamir, 29, an officer in the Infantry Corps, from Yakir.
Maj. (res.) Eitan Menachem Naeman, 44, a combat medic in the 551st Brigade, from Tene.
Maj. Uriel Bibi, 30, a Paratrooper officer, from Shlomit.
Maj. Ilay Zisser, 27, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Givat Olga.
Maj. Ido Huvra, 37, a soldier in the 401st Armored Brigade, from Sufa.
Cpt. (res.) Adi Bahrav Rabinovich, 62, a local security officer, from Netiv Ha’asara.
Cpt. (res.) Yaakov Nadlin, 36, a combat soldier in the Samaria Brigade from Or Akiva.
Cpt. (res.) Elhanan Meir Klemenzon, 41, an officer in the Judea and Samaria Division, from Otniel.
Cpt. Adir Ovadi, 23, a commander in the Home Front Command, from Modiin.
Cpt. Sagi Golan, 30, a Lotar commander, from Raanana.
Cpt. Yotam Ben Bassat, 24, a commander in the Multidomain Unit, from Bat Hefer.
Cpt. Arye Shlomo Ziering, 27, an Oketz officer, from Raanana.
Cpt. Tal Grushka, 25, a Nahal officer, from Kfar Saba.
Cpt. (res) Roi Nagri, 28, a Lotar unit commander, from Tel Aviv.
Cpt. (res.) Meir David Haim, 31, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Cpt. Raz Peretz, 24, a Golani commander, from Afula.
Cpt. Hadar Kama, 24, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Givat Shapira.
Cpt. Ben Bronstein, 24, a Duvdevan soldier, from Holon.
Cpt. (res.) Yuval Halibani, 30, a soldier in the 551st Brigade, from Ramat Gan.
Cpt. Shilo Har-Even, 25, a Golani soldier, from Almon.
Cpt. (res.) Amir Naim, 27, a Combat Engineering officer, from Erez.
Cpt. (res.) Avraham Hananel Hindi, 37, a local security officer, from Kfar Aza.
Cpt. Guy Admoni, 25, an intelligence officer, from Kfar Aza.
Lt. Dor Sade, 22, a Givati soldier, from Arugot.
Lt. Or Moses, 22, a commander in the Home Front Command, from Ashdod.
Lt. Yiftah Yaabetz, 23, a commander in Maglan, from Ramat Hasharon.
Lt. Menashe Yoav Maliev, 19, an officer in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Kiryat Ono.
Lt. Amitay Zvi Granot, 24, a commander in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Tel Aviv.
Lt. Or Yosef Ran, 29, a commander in Duvdevan, from Itamar.
Lt. (res.) Ido Edri, 24, an infantry officer, from Givaton.
Lt. Shilo Cohen, 24, a Shaldag soldier, from Sderot.
Lt. Shoham Tomer, 23, a Nahal officer, from Srigim.
Lt. Itay Maor, 23, a Golani officer, from Rosh Haayin.
Lt. Rom Shlomi, 23, a Shalgad officer, from Ganot.
Lt. Itay Cohen, 22, a Yahalom commander, from Rehovot.
Lt. Nitai Omer, a Combat Engineering officer 22, from Alumim.
Lt. Alina Pravosudova, 23, a Home Front Command officer, from Haifa.
Lt. Eden Nimri, 22, a commander in the Artillery Corps’ drone unit.
Lt. Dekel Suisa, 21, a Golani commander, from Bar Giora.
Lt. Ori Mordecai Shany, 22, a Golani commander, from Kiryat Arba.
Lt. Ron Tsarfati, 22, an officer in the Air Force’s air traffic control unit, from Hadera.
Lt. Sahar Saudin, 21, an instructor in the air defense array, from Rosh Haayin.
Lt. Eyal Klein, 22, a Nahal soldier, from Kfar Harif.
Lt. Amir Tzur, 23, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Lt. Ilay Adani, 21, a Maglan soldier, from Tel Mond.
Lt. Shilo Rochberger, 23, a Golani commander, from Eli.
Lt. Idan Baloy, 21, a Golani signals officer, from Rishon Lezion.
Lt. Shir Eilat, 20, a Unit 414 commander, from Kfar Shmuel.
Lt. Roi Nahari, 23, a Paratroopers officer, from Ora.
Lt. Omer Wolf, 22, a Golani commander, from Givat Haim.
2nd Lt. Adar Ben Simon, 20, a commander in the Home Front Command, from Neve Ziv.
2nd Lt. Yanai Kaminka, 20, a commander in the Home Front Command, from Tzur Hadassah.
2nd Lt. Yonatan Guttin, 20, a signals officer in the Multidomain Unit, from Modiin.
2nd Lt. Yuval Yafe, 21, an officer in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Tzofit.
2nd Lt. Yohai Duchan, 26, a Golani commander, from Kiryat Arba.
2nd Lt. Sahar Tal, 20, an intelligence officer in the 7th Armored Brigade, fro Tzora.

Warrant Officer Ido Rosenthal, 45, a Shaldag soldier, from Beit Shean.
Warrant Officer (res.) Avraham Fleischer, 63, a local security officer, from Magen.
Warrant Officer (res.) Gil Boyum, 55, a local security officer, from Be’eri.
First Sgt. (res.) Yiftah Gurni, 51, a local security officer, from Be’er Milka.
First Sgt. (res.) Abraham Gabriel Korin, 56, a local security officer, from Holit.
First Sgt. Ibrahim Kharuba, 39, a tracker in the Gaza Division, from Maghar.
First Sgt. Aharon Farash, 36, a logistics NCO, from Ofakim
First Sgt. Salman Ibn Marai, 41, a tracker in the Gaza Divison, from Segev Shalom.
First Sgt. (res.) Reuven Shishportish, 36, a local security officer, from Shlomit.
First Sgt. (res.) Ilan Fiorentino, 38, a local security officer, from Nahal Oz.
First Sgt. (res.) Aviad Gad Cohen, 41, a soldier in the Etzioni Brigade, from Shlomit.
First Sgt. Gil Avital, 56, a local security officer, from Yesha.
Master Sgt. (res.) Shachar Aviani, 56, a local security officer, from Kfar Aza.
Master Sgt. (res.) Aviv Baram, 33, a local security officer, from Kfar Aza.
Master Sgt. (res.) Tal Maman, 38, a local security officer, from Mivtahim.
Master Sgt. (res.) Lior Ben Yaakov, 44, a local security officer, from Yesha.
Master Sgt. (res.) Yuval Gabai, 35, a commander in the Border Defense Corps.
Master Sgt. (res.) Israel Amichai Witzen, 33, a local security officer, from Kerem Shalom.
Master Sgt. (res.) Yaron Victor Shahar, 51, a local security officer, from Nir Yitzhak.
Master Sgt. (res.) Behor Sweid, 32, a local security officer, from Shlomit.
Master Sgt. (res.) Liran Mons Almosnino, 42, a soldier in the Paran Regional Brigade, from Kmehin.
Master Sgt. (res.) Noam Slotaki, 31, a combat medic in the Carmeli Brigade, from Jerusalem.
Master Sgt. (res.) Saar Margolis, 37, a local security officer, from Kissufim.
Master Sgt. (res.) Shachar Tzemach, 39, a local security officer from Be’eri.
Master Sgt. (res.) Dan Asulin, 38, a local security officer, from Mivtahim.
Master Sgt. (res.) Shachaf Bergstein, 33, a local security officer, from Kfar Aza.
Sgt. First Class (res.) Haim Yeshurun Katzman, 32, head of a local security team, from Holit.
Sgt. First Class Amir Fisher, 22, a Duvdevan soldier, from Tel Aviv.
Sgt. First Class Vitaly Shipkevich, 21, an Egoz soldier, from Ariel.
Sgt. First Class (res.) Tomer Dolev. 34, a Home Front Command soldier, from Ashkelon.
Sgt. First Class Imri Belkin, 25, a Lotar instructor, from Ramat Hasharon.
Sgt. First Class Yosef Malachi Guedalia, 22, a Duvdevan soldier, from Jerusalem.
Sgt. First Class Jawad Amar, 23, commander of firing zone 150, from Hurfeish.
Sgt. First Class Gilad Molcho, 33, an Egoz soldier, from Tel Aviv.
Sgt. First Class (res.) Avichai Amsalem, 30, a soldier in the 551st Brigade, from Hadera.
Sgt. First Class (res.) Yedidya Moshe Raziel, 31, a local security officer, from Kerem Shalom.
Sgt. First Class Adam Agmon, 21, a commander at the School for Infantry Corps Professions and Squad Commanders, from Kamon.
Sgt. First Class (res.) Itay Shlomo Morenu, 24, a Maglan soldier, from Aderet.
Sgt. First Class Yishai Slotaki, 24, a soldier in the Oded Brigade, from Beersheba.
Sgt. First Class (res.) Daniel Kastiel, 24, a Maglan soldier, from Bet Shemesh.
Staff Sgt. Itay Avraham Ron, 20, a Golani soldier, from Nes Tziona.
Staff Sgt. Daniel Bezgodov, 22, a Nahal soldier, from Afula.
Staff Sgt. Itamar Ben Yehuda, 21, a Golani commander, from Rehovot.
Staff Sgt. Ofek Arbiv, 21, a Paratrooper, from Bat Yam.
Staff Sgt. (res.) Matanya Elster, 22, a soldier in the Carmeli Brigade, from Sde Ilan.
Staff Sgt. Neta Bar Am, 21, a Unit 414 soldier, from Hadera.
Staff Sgt. Ofir Tzioni, 21, a commander in the Home Front Command, from Yokne’am Illit.
Staff Sgt. Omri Niv Feirstein, 20, a Home Front Command soldier, from Givatayim.
Staff Sgt. Yuval Ben Yaakov, 21, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Kfar Menahem.
Staff Sgt. Aner Elkim Shapira, 22, a Nahal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Staff Sgt. (res.) Ofek Arazi, 28, a local security officer, from Nir Yitzhak.
Staff Sgt. (res.) Omer Nissim Bitan, 22, a soldier in the 5th Brigade, from Binyamina
Staff Sgt. Shlomo Rashtnikov, 20, a Golani soldier, from Haifa.
Staff Sgt. Ido Harush, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Mitspe Ramon.
Staff Sgt. Roi Weiser, 21, a Golani soldier, from Efrat.
Staff Sgt. Adir Gauri, 20, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Staff Sgt. Guy Simchi, 20, a Paratrooper, from Gedera.
Staff Sgt. Or Mizrahi, 21, a Nahal soldier, from Petah Tikva.
Staff Sgt. Ilay Gamzu, 20, a Paratrooper, from Ashdod.
Staff Sgt. Ohad Cohen, 20, a Shaldag soldier, from Idan.
Staff Sgt. Orel Moshe, 21, a Golani soldier, from Rechasim.
Staff Sgt. Yosef Itamar Beruchim, 20, a paratrooper, from Ashdod.
Staff Sgt. Tshager Taka, 21, a Golani soldier, from Jerusalem.
Staff Sgt. Nave Eliezer Lex, 21, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Lod.
Staff Sgt. Alexander Masli, 21, a Combat Engineering technician, from Afula.
Staff Sgt. Tal Levi, 21, a Nahal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Staff Sgt. Moshe Danino, 21, a Golani soldier, from Haifa.
Staff Sgt. Yaad Ben Yaakov, 20, a Golani soldier, from Petah Tikva.
Staff Sgt. Max Ravinov, 21, a Unit 414 soldier, from Ashdod.
Staff Sgt. David Retner, 20, a Golani soldier, from Ashdod.
Staff Sgt. Jonathan Golan, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Yehud.
Staff Sgt Yogev Aharon, 20, a Golani soldier from Pardes Hana.
Staff Sgt. Amit Peled, 21, an Egoz unit soldier, from Haifa.
Staff Sgt. Adi Tzur, 20, a Golani soldier, from Jerusalem.
Staff Sgt. Michael Ben Hamo, 21, a Golani soldier, from Rehovot.
Staff Sgt. Elad Michael Shushan, 21, an Egoz soldier, from Motza Illit.
Staff Sgt. Yonatan Savitsky, 21, an Egoz soldier, from Modiin.
Staff Sgt. Roi Bareket, 20, a Golani soldier, from Modiin.
Staff Sgt. Dolev Amouyal, 21, a Golani soldier, from Netanya.
Staff Sgt. Dvir Zakai, 20, a Golani soldier, from Tiberias.
Staff Sgt. Tomer Yaakov Mizrahi, 21, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Hoshaya.
Staff Sgt. Aviel Malkamo, 21, an Egoz soldier, from Kiryat Ata.
Staff Sgt. David Yerhi, 21, a Golani soldier, from Rishon Lezion.
Staff Sgt. Ofek Russo, 21, a Shayetet 13 soldier, from Kadima Zoran.
Staff Sgt. Daniel Kasavchuk, 21, a technician in the air defense array.
Staff Sgt. Shoham Bar, 21, a logistics NCO in Golani, from Ahuzat Barak.
Staff Sgt. Yishai Fitoussi, 21, a Golani soldier, from Talmon.
Staff Sgt. Dor Lazimi, 21, a Golani soldier, from Kfar Tavor.
Staff Sgt. Nadav Biton, 20, a Kfir soldier, from Ofakim.
Staff Sgt. Nehorai Levi Amitai, 20, a Golani commander, from Rinatya.
Sgt. Yam Goldstein Almog, 20, a commander in the Computer Service Directorate, from Kfar Aza.
Sgt. Ofir Shoshani, 20, a commander at the Mifrasit Base, from Kfar Aza.
Sgt. Daniel Rashed, 19, a Golani soldier, from Shefa-‘Amr
Sgt. Adi Landman, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Yokne’am Illit.
Sgt. Imri Peretz, 20, a commander at the School for Infantry Corps Professions and Squad Commanders, from Elyakhin.
Sgt. Roi Haim Guri, 21, a Golani soldier, from Ofakim.
Sgt. (res.) Adi Odaya Baruch, 22, a soldier in the Judea Regional Brigade, from Kiryat Netafim.
Sgt. Or Mizrahi, 20, a Unit 414 soldier, from Ramat Gan.
Sgt. Benjamin Blai, 20, a driver in the Gaza Division, from Rehovot.
Sgt. Maoro Alam, 20, a Golani soldier, from Ashkelon.
Sgt. Adir Ishto Bogla, 20, a Golani soldier, from Ariel.
Sgt. Gali Roi Shakotai, 21, a Nahal soldier, from Tzofar.
Sgt. Yarin Ma’ari Peled, 20, a medic in the Gaza Division, from Be’eri.
Sgt. Neria Ben David, 22, a Combat Engineering commander, from Haifa.
Sgt. Or Asto, 21, a logistics NCO in Golani, from Beersheba.
Sgt. Ofek Rosental, 20, a Maglan soldier, from Kfar Menahem.
Sgt. Eden Alon Levi, 19, a commander in the Home Front Command, from Nirit.
Sgt. Itay-El Marciano, 20, a Paratrooper, from Shoham.
Sgt. Ben Rubenstein, 20, a Lotar unit instructor, from Hod Hasharon.
Sgt. Yaron Uri Shay, 21, a Nahal soldier, from Kadima Zoran.
Sgt. Rotem Dushi, 20, a Paratrooper, from Shimshit.
Sgt. Or Malka, 21, a COGAT soldier, from Acre.
Sgt. Yakir Levi, 21, a Golani soldier, from Moreshet.
Sgt. Benjamin Loeb, 23, a Paratrooper, from Jerusalem.
Sgt. Amichay Yaakov Vaninu, 22, a Maglan commander, from Katzrin.
Sgt. Itay Nahmias, 20, a Multidomain Unit soldier, from Yesha.
Sgt. Tomer Barak, 20, a Golani soldier, from Petah Tikva.
Sgt. Evyatar Ohayon, 22, a Golani soldier, from Jerusalem.
Sgt. Noam Elimelech Rotenburg, 24, a soldier at the Training Command, from Beersheba.
Sgt. Brando David Flores Garcia, 21, a driver in the Gaza Division, from Beersheba.
Sgt. Amit Mosat, 20, a Golani soldier, from Modiin.
Sgt. Sahar Midani, 20, a Golani soldier, from Kiryat Ekron.
Sgt. Avraham Neria Cohen, 20, a soldier in the Gaza Division, from Jerusalem.
Sgt. Bar Rosenstein, 20, a Golani soldier, from Rishon Letzion.
Sgt. Nehorai Saeed, 21, a Kfir soldier, from Ofakim.
Sgt. Ofir Melman, 21, a Sayeret Matkal soldier, from Nir Yitzhak.
Sgt. Regev Amar, 20, a Paratrooper, from Sde Nehemia.
Sgt. Aviad Rivlin, 23, a soldier in the Technological and Logistics Directorate, from Otniel.
Sgt. Eliasf Ben Porat, 21, a cook in the 282nd Artillery Regiment, from Safed.
Sgt. Naor Siboni, 20, a Golani soldier, from Gilat.
Sgt. Daniel Shaferber, 20, a Unit 414 soldier, from Yehud.
Sgt. Shimon Elroy Ben Shitrit, 20, a Unit 414 soldier, from Beit Shean.
Sgt. Noa Price, 20, a Unit 414 soldier, from Mevoim.
Sgt. Valentin (Eli) Gancia, 22, a Paratrooper, from Jerusalem.
Sgt. Barak Ben David, 19, a Golani soldier, from Dimona.
Sgt. Itay Ofek Glisko, 20, a Golani soldier, from Yokne’am Illit.
Sgt. Dvir Chaim Ressler, 21, a Golani soldier, from Kedumim.
Sgt. Shahaf Nisani, 20, a Unit 414 soldier, from Ashkelon.
Sgt. Ori Carmi, 20, a Golani soldier, from Rishon Lezion.
Cpl. Kamay Achiel, 18, a Snapir sailor in the 914th Patrol Squadron, from Rosh Haayin.
Cpl. Tomer Leibovitz, 19, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Tel Aviv.
Cpl. Rotem Kutz, 18, a commander in the Computer Service Directorate, from Kfar Aza.
Cpl. Osher Simcha Barzilai, 19, a soldier in the Gaza Division, from Mazkeret Batya.
Cpl. Nahman Dekel, 20, a Nahal soldier, from Holon.
Cpl. Yotam Hallel, 19, a Nahal soldier, from Bareket.
Cpl. Shoham Shlomo Nidam, 19, a technician in Golani, from Kiryat Shmona
Cpl. Boaz Menashe Yogev, 19, a technician in the Gaza Division, from Talmon.
Cpl. Amir Eyal, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Haifa.
Cpl. Habib Keyan, 21, a Golan soldier, from Hura.
Cpl. Yael Leibushor, 20, a Unit 414 soldier, from Ge’a.
Cpl. Nativ Kutzro, 21, a technician in the air defense array.
Cpl. Dvir Lisha, 21, a Golani soldier, from Nitzan.
Cpl. Guy Bazak, 19, a Golani soldier, from Givatayim.
Cpl. Netanel Young, 20, a Golani soldier from Tel Aviv.
Cpl. Adi Gurman, 19, a Unit 414 soldier.
Cpl. Ariel Eliyahu, 19, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Mitspe Yeriho.
Cpl. Danit Cohen, 19, a soldier in the IDF Southern Command, from Sderot.
Cpl. Amit Guetta, 21, a Maglan soldier, from Rehovot.
Cpl. Itamar Ayish, 19, a Home Front Command soldier, from Kiryat Gat.
Cpl. Ori Looker, 19, a Golani soldier, from Pardes Hana-Karkur.
Cpl. Yaron Zahar, 19, a Golani soldier, from Kiryat Ata.
Cpl. Adir Tahar, 19, a Golani soldier, from Jerusalem.
Cpl. Amit Tzur, 19, a Golani soldier, from Elyachin.
Cpl. Ilay Bar Sadeh, 19, a Golani soldier, from Ramat Gan.
Cpl. Idan Raz, 20, a Golani soldier, from Ein HaMifratz.
Cpl. Lior Azizov, 20, a Golani soldier, from Kfar Silver.
Cpl. Roi Peri, 19, a Golani soldier, from Shoham.
Cpl. Shir Biton, 19, a medic in the Gaza Division, from Ashdod.
Cpl. Osher Shmia, 19, a soldier in the Gaza Division, from Beersheba.
Cpl. Shir Shlomo, 19, a Home Front Command soldier, from Netanya.
Cpl. Ofir Testa, 21, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade, from Jerusalem.
Cpl. Ariel Ohana, 19, a Paratrooper, from Revadim.
Cpl. Hallel Shmuel Saadan, a Nahal soldier, from Barkai.
Cpl. Erez Ariel, 19, a Golani soldier, from Amka.
Cpl. Sivan Simcha Asraf, 20, a signals soldier, from Ashkelon.
Cpl. Ram Meir Batito, 19, a Golani soldier, from Netanya.
Cpl. Amir Lavi, 19, a Nahal soldier, from Jerusalem.
Cpl. Uriel Segal, 19, a Golani soldier, from Petah Tikva.
Cpl. Shay Ashram, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Rehovot.
Cpl. Bar Yankelov, 19, a Paratrooper, from Karmiel.
Cpl. Tomer Nagar, 20, a Golani soldier, from Jerusalem.
Cpl. Lavi Bouchnik, 20, a Paratrooper, from Peduim.
Cpl. Natan Chai Lior, 20, a Kfir soldier, from Netanya.
Cpl. Shalev Baranes, 20, a Golani soldier, from Kfar Baruch.
Cpl. Ido Binenstock, 19, a Golani soldier, from Ramat Gan.
Cpl. Itamar Cohen, 19, a Golani soldier, from Carmiel.
Cpl. Emil Smoylov, 22, a guard in COGAT, from Haifa.
Cpl. Amichai Shimon Rubin, 23, a Golani soldier, from Acre.
Cpl. David Mittelman, 20, a Golani soldier, from Rosh Tzurim.
Cpl. Shirel Mor, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Raanana.
Cpl. Ilay Ben Mucha, 20, a Golani soldier, from Ashdod.
Cpl. Aviv Hajaj, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Galit.
Cpl. Karin Schwartzman, 20, an Air Force technician, from Holon.
Cpl. Shimon Lugasi, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Acre.
Cpl. Benjamin Gavriel Yona, 19, a driver in the air defense array.
Cpl. Or Avital, 20, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade.
Cpl. Matan Malka, 19, a Paratrooper from Gesher Haziv.
Cpl. Matan Abarjil, 19, a Golani soldier, from Hermesh.
Cpl. Ofir Yeruhin, 19, a Golani soldier, from Givat Shmuel.
Pvt. Maya Vialovo Polo, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Givatayim.
Pvt. Yonatan Elazari, 19, a Paratrooper, from Alon Shvut.
Pvt. Ilay Azar, 18, a soldier in the Gaza Divison, from Shefayim.
Pvt. Neria Aharon Nagiri, 18, a Home Front Command soldier, from Talmon.
Pvt. Naama Buni, 19, a soldier in the 7th Armored Brigade.
Pvt. Ofir Davidian, 18, a logistics soldier in the Home Front Command, from Patish.
Pvt. Lior Levy, 19, a soldier in the Home Front Command, from Dimona.
Pvt. Noam Abramovitz, 19, a Unit 414 soldier, from Givat Brener.
Pvt. Shirat Yam Amer, 18, a Unit 414 soldier, from Kiryat Ono.
Pvt. Lirod Makayes, 19, a COGAT soldier, from Ofakim.
Pvt. Hadar Miryam Cohen, 18, a Unit 414 soldier, from Zeitan.
Pvt. Idan Baruch, 20, a soldier in the Education Corps.

An updated list of the slain soldiers and further details can be found at the following [Hebrew] link.

And then there are the IDF soldiers who were prisoners in Gaza bombed by Israel

 

I'm a huge fan of the Powell Doctrine.  Have a defined and achievable military objective.  Get in.  And get out.  Keep soldiers who are serving us alive.  That is why Gulf War I (Bush 41/Powell) worked well, and kept soldiers alive. And Gulf War II  (Bush 43/Cheney) didn't.

I have no idea how you do the Powell Doctrine in a situation like Gaza.  I strongly suspect Hamas, evil but not stupid, knew this when they planned the attack.  

[forky123]

Anyone advocating a ground offensive on the 3rd most densely populated place on the planet where two million people, the majority women and children, huddle under some of the worst conditions imaginable is a fucking idiot. What Hamas did was evil and they should be severely punished for it. A ground offensive is going to get a lot more people, mostly innocent, killed. 

1300 people died in the Hamas attack, many women and children. 1500 have already died in the IDF air attacks, over half women and children. Anyone cheering this on needs psychiatric help. 

[Latbear4blk]

3 hours ago, forky123 said:

Anyone cheering this on needs psychiatric help. 

Or an exorcism.

 

[EmmetK]

12 hours ago, Mavica said:

You've obviously forgotten the links you posted.

You've obviously chosen to ignore the facts that refute your claim.
Here are the polls I referenced. Both show overwhelming US support for Israel. Both taken in the last 72 hours and published this weekend.
One by ABC-IPSOS and the other by CNN (reported by Politico).

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/americans-favor-continued-support-israel-sour-bidens-performance/story?id=103969016

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/15/poll-americans-israel-hamas-palestinians-00121619

 

[Mavica]

1 hour ago, EmmetK said:

You've obviously chosen to ignore the facts that refute your claim.

You are wrong, again. You are projecting on others your own behavior.  My comments refer solely to the information you provided about the polls / opinions purportedly in Israel - which predate the current conflict.

[EmmetK]

Polls that were taken on Oct 13 and 14 pre-date the current conflict?  lol.

In what bizarro world?

Americans overwhelmingly support Israel's right to defend itself. Period. This is what these CURRENT polls state explicitly.
No different than if 1500 terrorists crossed the Canadian border and committed similar massacres and atrocities against American citizens.

Israel will do what it needs to not only defend its citizens, but to ensure that Gaza will never be used as a terrorist haven where Hamas murderers can cross the border with impunity to slaughter innocent Israelis.

[forky123]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:20 PM, EmmetK said:

So far Biden has been good in defending America's only middle east democratic ally. So has Trudeau. We'll see if that lasts.

Every poll from a variety of sites show Trump far more popular than Biden amongst Israelis.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/poll-jewish-israelis-love-trump/

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/majority-of-israelis-prefer-donald-trump-over-joe-biden-poll-645493

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-22/ty-article/.highlight/survey-most-of-the-world-prefers-biden-to-trump-but-not-israel/00000181-8ba3-d2c2-a3a5-cbbf21fe0000

https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-less-popular-among-israelis-than-trump-but-seen-as-less-dangerous/

There is a reason that Israel named a town a town in their north after Trump.
There is a reason that Israel named the train stop at the Western Wall "Trump Station".

15 May 18
14 Oct 20
22 Jun 22
11 Jul 22