Thailand in the low season (trip report)

[floridarob]

8 hours ago, moistmango said:

"All straight", the mama tells me. OK. I make my pick: a jock-y, party boy type who has one of the cutest faces in the room, and goes by "Arm". Off fee 500, tip 2000 minimum. We head back to my hotel, and it becomes quite obvious that Arm is certainly not as straight as DB mama claims. I think my dry spell is over. 

Definitely not all straight, lol

I've been with "Arm"... he can be REALLY good, or meh, he's a type that get's complacent after his 1st off and doesn't always deliver 100% of what he can....he likes to drink. Did you go to the little bar down the street from DB, you'll usually catch him drinking there when he finishes work drinking wine. 

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, moistmango said:

We head back to my hotel, and it becomes quite obvious that Arm is certainly not as straight as DB mama claims

I always say I have my doubts how really straight are those "straight"  guys presenting themselves in boy bars and spas

[moistmango]

1 hour ago, macaroni21 said:

I've witnessed something very similar before - not at Toy Boys, but in a Bangkok gogo bar. Also a South Asian dude. And I was seated quite close to the action, so I caught a bit of the conversation. In my incident, the mamasan was explaining that the off fee was for the bar and the boy still expected a tip of [whatever amount - I can't recall]. The customer objected and claimed he had been misled, and said - this I remember - something along the lines of "In my country, 500 would be for everything." Of course, I don't know what country he was referring to, or even whether it had gogo bars of similar variety.

Yes, indeed, that seems like a plausible explanation for the little episode I witnessed last night! - different cultural approaches to sex work and its finer details, lol ..

[moistmango]

28 minutes ago, floridarob said:

he likes to drink. Did you go to the little bar down the street from DB, you'll usually catch him drinking there when he finishes work drinking wine. 

Good to know - he did mention heading back to the bar to get a drink after we were done. 

[moistmango]

1 hour ago, vinapu said:

 

Nice Boys is a must to visit IMHO

 

Well, I guess we have a winner (or a Nice). If both @vinapu and @forrestreid are saying aye, Sunee it is. 

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

In my incident, the mamasan was explaining that the off fee was for the bar and the boy still expected a tip of [whatever amount - I can't recall]. The customer objected and claimed he had been misled, and said - this I remember - something along the lines of "In my country, 500 would be for everything." 

I believe the bars are partly at fault with this quite major degree of misunderstanding. The owners should be extremely well aware - as are all members of gaythailand - that the make up of patrons at gogo and other bars has been changing rapidly for quite a number of years. Few Chinese, Indian and some other nationalities will have been to such bars in their own countries and be unaware of the 'protocols' of Thai bars. Why do the bar owners place all the onus on a mama-san whose English, no matter how hard he tries, is unlikely to be anywhere near fluent. Those patrons from some countries will be equally bad in conversational English, the more so with as both parties may have strong national accents.

So why do they not consider placing on the bar tables a small laminated sheet with bar 'protocol' as it relates to boys drinks, tips in the bar, off fees and tips afterwards re offing boys. This probably need to be only in Chinese, Japanese and Indian (with English as well if felt necessary). This then takes away almost all possibility of miscommunication.

[Department_Of_Agriculture]

11 hours ago, moistmango said:

The DB crowd seems a little more on the rough trade side than their TB counterparts - just one man's impression - and there are one or two cuties. "All straight", the mama tells me. OK. I make my pick: a jock-y, party boy type who has one of the cutest faces in the room, and goes by "Arm". Off fee 500, tip 2000 minimum. We head back to my hotel, and it becomes quite obvious that Arm is certainly not as straight as DB mama claims.

The mamasan will tell you whatever is necessary to close the deal. If he thinks you're a top, he'll tell you that most are gay. If he thinks you're a bottom, he'll tell you that most are straight. A minimum of 2,000 for a short time in most Pattaya bars would be...generous. Or was that for an overnight?

 

The boys at Nice Boys are nice. Even if they are not the most handsome by conventional standards, most have great attitudes.

The customers, on the other hand, are often the bottom of the barrel - emphasis on bottom, although quite a few of them also resemble barrels. 

Alas, that bar, more than any other, attracts a lot of lowlifes. Should be an interesting first visit.

 

[Londoner]

PeterRS is spot-on; newbies from the UK or USA will have forums such as this to learn about the dos and don'ts of Thai bars. Back in 1990s I was assisted by an excellent gay guide called "Thai Scene" that ensured I knew all about the game. There were other similar ones.  However, non-English speakers without guidance may get it wrong....which is where a decent mamasan earns his money. 

 

[CallMeLee]

4 hours ago, vinapu said:

then go next time , If you don't you will never know doesn't matter how many reports you will read and how many clips on YouTube you will watch.

Believe me, that has always been the plan - leave most of my stuff in Bangkok for a few days in Pattaya.

However, once I get a taste of what Bangkok offers, the temptation to stay is so unbearably strong! Lol.

Maybe next time I should head to Pattaya straight from Suvarnabhumi.

 

[reader]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So why do they not consider placing on the bar tables a small laminated sheet with bar 'protocol' as it relates to boys drinks, tips in the bar, off fees and tips afterwards re offing boys. This probably need to be only in Chinese, Japanese and Indian (with English as well if felt necessary). This then takes away almost all possibility of miscommunication.

7 hours ago, vinapu said:

I always say I have my doubts how really straight are those "straight"  guys presenting themselves in boy bars and spas

I would endorse PeterRS' idea about making things clear in advance about fees and minimum tips. Just about all the massage shops in Saphan Kwai post minimum tips for individual guys (the tips are set by the boys themselves, as far as I know). This eliminates misunderstandings and ensures that masseur receives fair compensation. In shops where's no minimum (and that's most of the ones in the Silom area), I amazed by how many northeast Asian customers offer zero to a few hundred baht.

As for Vinapu's observation, I have the same thoughts. I like to think of those guys as"Bangkok straight": they're straight until they decide they're not as the right opportunity presents itself when the door closes.🙂

[Boy69]

6 hours ago, Department_Of_Agriculture said:

The mamasan will tell you whatever is necessary to close the deal. If he thinks you're a top, he'll tell you that most are gay. If he thinks you're a bottom, he'll tell you that most are straight. A minimum of 2,000 for a short time in most Pattaya bars would be...generous. Or was that for an overnight?

It's a little bit different than that , Thai thinking is not the same as ours. when the mamasan say 'straight' usually mean the guy is a top and wouldn't bottom, he might be straight/gay/bi but for the mamsan point of view it's not relevant.  Mamasan usually won't lie and tell you the guy is bottom when he's top only because it might cause a problem between client and the guy offed and would ending by sending him back to the bar without paying .

[PeterRS]

10 minutes ago, Boy69 said:

Thai thinking is not the same as ours. when the mamasan say 'straight' usually mean the guy is a top and wouldn't bottom, he might be straight/gay/bi but for the mamsan point of view it's not relevant.  Mamasan usually won't lie and tell you the guy is bottom when he's top only because it might cause a problem between client and the guy offed and would ending by sending him back to the bar without paying .

Is this not another piece of information that should be put on the laminated table cards? Sure it should be part of the mamasan's job but I really wonder how many do it in such a way that it is perfectly clear to each customer? Not all that many, I think.

Some may remember the thread about the boy bars in Japan. Their websites makes absolutely everything you would ever want to know about their procedures and what your chosen boy will and will not do 100% clear.

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 

So why do they not consider placing on the bar tables a small laminated sheet with bar 'protocol' as it relates to boys drinks, tips in the bar, off fees and tips afterwards re offing boys. This probably need to be only in Chinese, Japanese and Indian (with English as well if felt necessary). This then takes away almost all possibility of miscommunication.

good idea , used alredy by many massage places where minimum tip is spelled clearly and pointed out to customers

[fedssocr]

maybe the bar doesn't want to publish such a document because it could open them up to some sort of legal jeopardy? More likely they're just in a rut of tradition. 

Given the myriad number of languages in India it might be difficult, but I suppose they could just do Hindi and presume that anyone traveling from India likely at least has some rudimentary English knowledge.

Such a device would need to be VERY concise

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

 Sure it should be part of the mamasan's job but I really wonder how many do it in such a way that it is perfectly clear to each customer? Not all that many, I think.

Some may remember the thread about the boy bars in Japan. Their websites makes absolutely everything you would ever want to know about their procedures and what your chosen boy will and will not do 100% clear.

They do but not sure horny and salivating customers pay due attention.

You right about Japanese bar and this may be source of misunderstanding as some customers familiar with Japanese system may assume in Thailand is the same whatever price is quoted.

7 hours ago, Londoner said:

PeterRS is spot-on; newbies from the UK or USA will have forums such as this to learn about the dos and don'ts of Thai bars. Back in 1990s I was assisted by an excellent gay guide called "Thai Scene" that ensured I knew all about the game. There were other similar ones.  However, non-English speakers without guidance may get it wrong....which is where a decent mamasan earns his money. 

 

They may have their own sources, for sure mainland Chinese do as I came across of some of their forums while combing internet.  But the same like with our resources , there are many who are not even aware about  their existence or if they do, they don't bother to visit 

 

7 hours ago, Department_Of_Agriculture said:

The mamasan will tell you whatever is necessary to close the deal. If he thinks you're a top, he'll tell you that most are gay. If he thinks you're a bottom, he'll tell you that most are straight. A minimum of 2,000 for a short time in most Pattaya bars would be...generous. Or was that for an overnight?

 

The boys at Nice Boys are nice. Even if they are not the most handsome by conventional standards, most have great attitudes.

The customers, on the other hand, are often the bottom of the barrel - emphasis on bottom, although quite a few of them also resemble barrels. 

Alas, that bar, more than any other, attracts a lot of lowlifes. Should be an interesting first visit.

 

I rarely engage mamasans preferring to wave boy over and deal with him myself but sometimes is necessary of just useful to enlist mamasan as well. They may embellish the truth but rarely they outright lie , if only to avoid  future problems with unhappy customer.

Toy Boys are not my primary destination but from few members I heard the same, boys are catching up with Bangkok and expect 2000 short time, which as you pointing out , for Pattaya is generous and probably can be bargained down

as for Nice Boys I agree with your assessment of boys but you bit harsh about customers. One thing is sure , no noisy screaming  Asian girls there (so far?) , everybody is there for the same kind of entertainment.

7 hours ago, CallMeLee said:

Believe me, that has always been the plan - leave most of my stuff in Bangkok for a few days in Pattaya.

However, once I get a taste of what Bangkok offers, the temptation to stay is so unbearably strong! Lol.

Maybe next time I should head to Pattaya straight from Suvarnabhumi.

 

I do. I was also reluctant to leave Bangkok's charms  for first few trips but then I braved myself and I'm happy I did. My first impression was not even that great but it grew on me with subsequent visits.  Even chalked one of my trips as spent more in Pattaya than in Bangkok. My problem with Pattaya is that not being sun and sand person I have problem to make my daytimes interesting there.

No problem to go straight away as there's quite frequent bus taking you straight from airport to Jomtien in less then 2 hrs. There is only short walk to Complex bars and hotels from there.

Its also great way to go from Pattaya to Bangkok , I always take airport but and from airport train to the center. Much better option than Ekkamai buses from/to  North Pattaya bus station as it beats city traffic. Once I managed to amaze Pattaya regular on the bus. He asked me what time is my flight and when I said I'm just going to Bangkok that way he said " great idea , it never crossed my mind" so sometimes simple solutions as still hidden in broad daylight.

[vinapu]

4 minutes ago, fedssocr said:

Such a device would need to be VERY concise

exactly, more than one line and nobody will bother to read unless pointed to 

[Boy69]

39 minutes ago, fedssocr said:

maybe the bar doesn't want to publish such a document because it could open them up to some sort of legal jeopardy?

Yes I agree with you formal documents with rates and services might cause problems with authorities it will become obvious they are selicating sex services.

It's a good idea but can't be practice in a country where prostitustion isn't legal and from the government point of you isn't exist at all in Thailand (lol).

[Shonen]

Prostitution is illegal, so I’m sure that’s why they don’t have signs etc. 
 

In Jomtien complex, Soda massage has a sign saying no sex allowed. I often feel a bit guilty when I leave there and glance at that sign, like I did something wrong,lol.

[reader]

Prostitution is illegal but massage is not. Many shops post both on line and in shop the minimum tip. That would not be illegal.

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

exactly, more than one line and nobody will bother to read unless pointed to 

I totally disagree. I think westerners who have knowledge of bars will certainly pay little attention. You and i may have no problem, but Indians from Varanasi, Japanese from Oita or Chinese from Chengdu may be perfectly happy to have the "rules" printed out in their own languages. Not everyone speaks English - or not enough English to understand what a Thai mamasan is trying to tell them. Without complete understanding comes miscommunication.

As for prostitution being illegal, it would be stupid to list tips (as they do in quite a few massage spas). All that is necessary is to print that the off fee does not include any tips which are extra! It doesn't take much to make such a list perfectly understandable without being against the law.

[fedssocr]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

I do. I was also reluctant to leave Bangkok's charms  for first few trips but then I braved myself and I'm happy I did. My first impression was not even that great but it grew on me with subsequent visits.  Even chalked one of my trips as spent more in Pattaya than in Bangkok. My problem with Pattaya is that not being sun and sand person I have problem to make my daytimes interesting there.

I've never been a "beach person" either. Although I will say that the Thai way of having loungers and umbrellas makes the whole beach experience a lot more bearable than just putting a towel down on the sand in full sun like here in the USA. 

I think this is a big part of why I can only take Pattaya for a few days at a time. I can only spend so much time at Central Festival...

[reader]

33 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

As for prostitution being illegal, it would be stupid to list tips (as they do in quite a few massage spas). All that is necessary is to print that the off fee does not include any tips which are extra! It doesn't take much to make such a list perfectly understandable without being against the law.

I think it's stupid not to. Just texted with massage guy I talk with almost every night after work. Today he had three customers: two from China who gave him total of 300 baht and one from US who gave him four times that amount. Why? His shops does not post minimum tip. Those shops that do post tips don't seem to have any problem making it understood.

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

All that is necessary is to print that the off fee does not include any tips which are extra! It doesn't take much to make such a list perfectly understandable without being against the law.

problems with such solution lies in semantics. When we talk about tip in reality we are talking about  fees for sex work services. This is easily understandable to all who set their foot in Thai bars and massages. For all others tip is voluntary  gratuity for  any services received and there's danger when mentioned  it may be taken as such i.e. voluntary  and smallish part of an original bill.

 It may be secret of those ridiculously low  300 baht tips mentioned by reader above although there's good chance some patrons may be just playing stupid knowing well what is supposed to be. 

There are many tipping cultures and that was discussed many times here so we know  it is source of misunderstanding quite often. North Americans are tipping right, left and center because that is what they do at home . In some countries few spare coins will suffice and no hissing results if nothing will be left. And there are  those where that is foreign and unknown concept. There are also variations -  my sister lives in 2nd category listed so they leave token tip and when she visited me was surprised that we tip barbers or taxi drivers. I always joke " what you guys save on tips you spend on public toilets (paid there and at times quite a bit )

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, reader said:

I think it's stupid not to. Just texted with massage guy I talk with almost every night after work. Today he had three customers: two from China who gave him total of 300 baht and one from US who gave him four times that amount. Why? His shops does not post minimum tip. Those shops that do post tips don't seem to have any problem making it understood.

Basically I agree with you. But massage is not an illegal activity. Of course we all know that it can lead to a happy ending but essentially massage is a service common and legal in most parts of the world. So putting an expected tip on a service list is not breaking any law as I understand it.

On the other hand I think it would be very difficult to argue in any court in Thailand that offing a boy or a girl from a bar is in almost all cases for any purpose other than sex. "Sorry, your  honour. We were only going to discuss the changing price of rice or the latest movements on the stock markets," is hardly likely to change a judge's opinion." Therefore prostitution is the primary motive and putting expected tip amounts on a bar notice unfortunately makes that 99.99% clear.

[CallMeLee]

19 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So why do they not consider placing on the bar tables a small laminated sheet with bar 'protocol' as it relates to boys drinks, tips in the bar, off fees and tips afterwards re offing boys. This probably need to be only in Chinese, Japanese and Indian (with English as well if felt necessary). This then takes away almost all possibility of miscommunication.

If I remember correctly, the New Twilight Bar (back then) kinda have a similar approach where the staff whips out their mobile showing a menu of sorts (off fee, ST and LT for models and non- models, etc). So overall, a clever idea I reckon.