Thailand in the low season (trip report)

[reader]

But if we told court we went to my room to discuss who was bigger asshole, Trump or DeSantis, I think they’d buy it.

[spoon]

9 hours ago, reader said:

 

Double post

[spoon]

9 hours ago, reader said:

 

Double post

[spoon]

9 hours ago, reader said:

Today he had three customers: two from China who gave him total of 300 baht and one from US who gave him four times that amount.

Is the massage center mixed center or legit center? Even in prime, minimum tips is 100/200 baht. So if its a legit center, 300 baht or 150 a customer tips might be something a chinese customer think is ok for a normal massage. 

If its an obvious extra service massage place, most place will have high min tips, starting 800/1000 usually. The higher end of these usually not spelt out, which can be a bad or a good thing for masseurs, depending on customer. Of course if a center didnt have any min tips, it can be also be a good or bad thing depends on customer. Obviously in this exact example, its not so good for 2 of his customer but good for the one. 

Back home, for normal massage center here, no such tips are compulsory, though personally, ill usually tips if im satisfied, depending on how long the massage was and how happy i am, and how likely im coming back for the same masseur. Almost always, this results in better experience, or at least equal excellent massage for subsequent visits. Some, rarely though, evolved to a more sensual massage, reaching further to the forbidden area, in which, higher tips is given lol.

[reader]

Mixed shop.

They exploit the fact that the vast majority of shops in Silom/Surawong don’t require minimum tips. 

Classic Cheap Charlie behavior. And it’s consistently on display.

I've patronized Prime and would be embarrassed to tip less than 500. 

[macaroni21]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

There are many tipping cultures and that was discussed many times here so we know  it is source of misunderstanding quite often. North Americans are tipping right, left and center because that is what they do at home .

Despite having been to the US many times, I am still amazed at this practice and the amounts involved. On the other hand, I have seen Americans get all flustered in Asia when service providers refuse their tips. 

Once incident I remember: I was once travelling with an American colleague to a secondary city outside Beijing. We were going up to our hotel rooms after check-in, and a bellboy was helping us with our luggage. When we reached our rooms, he offered a tip to the bellboy, who refused it, saying something like "I'm only doing my job, sir." The bellboy's accent was difficult to understand (though I would credit him for speaking in English at all, and in a secondary city too - how many American bellboys in, say, Cincinnati, can speak Chinese?), but I knew what he said. However, my colleague (ike so many Americans) had a hard time dealing with foreign accents, and didn't know what the bellboy said, only that the chap wouldn't take the money. 

My colleague looked at me and asked in a whisper, "Is it too little?". Yes, that was what crossed his mind!

I am much, much happier in countries, like in Asia, where tipping is not expected. Thailand is actually one of those countries. The problem is that the gogobars and massage parlours mis-use the word "tip" to mean service fee. Thus causing much confusion.

[macaroni21]

52 minutes ago, spoon said:

Is the massage center mixed center or legit center? Even in prime, minimum tips is 100/200 baht. So if its a legit center, 300 baht or 150 a customer tips might be something a chinese customer think is ok for a normal massage. 

My thought exactly. In these mixed places, quite often the masseur gives a handjob while standing beside the massage table without him taking off his clothes. I don't think it's worth the same as in one of the Saphan Khwai places when it's body on body. We need to take context and all the facts into consideration before jumping to conclusions.

[scott456]

Just now, macaroni21 said:

 when it's body on body. We need to take context and all the facts into consideration before jumping to conclusions.

Especially when lean bodies on fat bodies,  more money should be mandatory. 

[reader]

In other words, Macaroni, you’d be perfectly content if your employer didn’t pay you for your job. Because that’s what the tips represents to masseurs. It’s their pay.

What a ridiculous attempt to justify bad behavior.

 

[moistmango]

DAY 5

The frustrations of the previous day forgotten, I'm starting to enjoy being by the beach in Pattaya. The vibe is far, far different from Bangkok's, I have to say. The sight of a farang - typically in his 50s and up - sitting by himself at a bar in the middle of the day, staring rather blankly out into the street, is surprising in its ubiquity. Meanwhile, the locals almost seem to treat tourists who cross their path with an indifference that sometimes crosses over into badly concealed exasperation, as I found out when I asked for a grocery bag at the supermarket. (The sustainability movement hasn’t missed Thailand, so bags have to purchased at certain large retailers – Big C in this case.)

I decide that I want a massage today, but as it turns out, the big guy up there had other ideas. I was in the Boyztown vicinity, and remember a fellow forum-er (Christian?) posting about a place called Relax Massage that boasts rather fetching lads. I stroll past the joint, but perhaps it’s too early in the day – this was slightly before 2 p.m. – and the few masseurs who were present did nothing for me. I ended up taking a rather pleasant jaunt back to my hotel along the beachfront instead, which actually wasn’t a bad substitute for the missed massage. I try my luck on Grindr later in the afternoon for an in-call masseur, and of course make the mistake of not asking for a video chat first. The boy shows up, and the discrepancy between the person in the profile and the boy in the flesh is just too wide for me to ignore. (He had photoshopped his acne issues out of the pictures, and there *were* issues.) I politely declined the session, and gave him 200 baht for his troubles. I wonder if it was too generous, but he did get all dressed up in a button-down shirt and slacks. I choose to be charitable about the misleading photos, since it seems to be common practice hereabouts – he was likely just doing what he needed to, to conduct business. Lesson learnt.

As consolation, I buy myself a couple of cocktails at the Hilton’s rooftop bar. The view over the sea at sunset is quite sublime, though – IMHO – the curving stretch of Beach Rd. glittering in the gloom of dusk is by far the more attractive view. Spent an hour and a half there, staring out at the city lights with a sea breeze in my face. Definitely a highlight of the trip so far.

I head off to Sunee later in the night – which did not prove an auspicious beginning, unfortunately! Nice Boys was first, but its crowd is a *little* too rough around the edges for me. There are maybe 8 boys hanging around in their undies, with nary a customer in sight. I decide that I would rather not stay, and take off to Winner. This was around 10 p.m., but all I saw were two patrons seated outside. I’m assuming that the boys are all indoors with their patrons, but that was an assumption indeed. Inside, there’s no one on stage, but two small clusters of boys seated around, who can barely be bothered to get up. That’s it for me. I decide that Sunee is not happening tonight, and set off at a brisk stroll for Boyztown.

First stop: Classic Boys, which I skipped last night. There is a clutch of boys in their undies, but no one catches my eye. I head off to Toy Boys, where there is a larger selection – 16 tonight, the papa tells me ruefully, when at their busiest there are something like 30 – but it’s pretty much the same line-up from last night. I buy a beer, then head to Dream Boys, where I chat a little with Arm and the mama. (@floridarob, you are completely right. Arm’s enthusiasm with a john dips significantly after the first encounter.) Nothing much is happening there, so I swing into X-Boys to take in the show, which was a surprisingly fun time! It was the right amount of farce for me, with certain acts an improbable mix of the erotic and the completely ludicrous – the standout here being the one where boys do pull-ups with buckets of paint (? – I think) tied to their erections. And then there’s the act where they play miniature golf with their er, flesh putters … The difference between bars that boast shows, and those without, is stark. Like BBB last night, XB is packed out this evening. There are a couple of lookers in their roster, but those guys get called to other tables pretty quickly, so I head back to Dream.

I’m very, very keen on a boy named Dao, who apparently has been at the bar less than a week, but he seems shy, with limited English skills. For some reason, he’s reluctant to be offed this evening. My initial guess is that he’s none too fond of me, but he communicates through the mama that he’s free the following night, and even asks me before I leave what time I’m dropping in tomorrow for him, so perhaps I’m not a complete ogre. Mama recommends another boy, Boy. Yes, that is indeed his real name.. Boy has a great smile, so I’m won over. “Straight, but can smoke”, I’m told. We go out for supper at the all-night Thai-Chinese place next door, where one can get braised duck at 1.30 am in the morning!! Praise be to the gods. Boy hails from a town in the south of Laos, and has been working in Pattaya for about a year, or slightly less than. Back at the hotel, the purported straightness of these boys is once again, I find, belied by their reaction to another male body in bed. After he leaves, I sit on the balcony and have a puff and listen to one of my favourite tunes, Carole King's "It's Too Late", and think about ex-lovers, and good times and bad.

Tonight, I’m off to see Dao. Wish me luck, folks. 

 

 

[scott456]

Google says the customery tip for a massage is 20%

[reader]

47 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

I am much, much happier in countries, like in Asia,where tipping is not expected. Thailand is actually one of those countries. The problem is that the gogobars and massage parlours mis-use the word "tip" to mean service fee. Thus causing much confusion.

Why tip anyone. Just consider yourself entitled to have boys service your body for the sheer thrill of it.

if we all follow your logic, no one would be tipping anyone.  Maids, bartenders, waiters and bellhops would get stiffed.

[macaroni21]

36 minutes ago, reader said:

In other words, Macaroni, you’d be perfectly content if your employer didn’t pay you for your job. Because that’s what the tips represents to masseurs. It’s their pay.

What a ridiculous attempt to justify bad behavior.

 

You are twisting my words. @scott456 understood me perfectly. What is a right amount depends on circumstances, and we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that 150 - 300 baht is wrong. That's all I said.

[reader]

35 minutes ago, scott456 said:

Google says the customery tip for a massage is 20%

So if the massage shop changes 500 baht for an hour massage, you think 100 baht would be a fair tip?

 Please don’t substitute Google for your brain in all matters.

[scott456]

11 minutes ago, reader said:

So if the massage shop changes 500 baht for an hour massage, you think 100 baht would be a fair tip?

 Please don’t substitute Google for your brain in all matters.

I don't think Google's answer is for Thailand, nor for sex massage. LOL.  You need to chill.

And yes, when I got the free 30 minute foot massage at the Thai Airways airport business class lounge, I tipped 100 baht even though the massage was free.  I thought my tip amount was ok.

[moistmango]

2 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

I am much, much happier in countries, like in Asia, where tipping is not expected. Thailand is actually one of those countries. The problem is that the gogobars and massage parlours mis-use the word "tip" to mean service fee. Thus causing much confusion.

I'm torn on this one. Tipping struck me as being an unproductive, archaic system when I first moved to the U.S. - my immediate question was, how thin are profit margins in the F&B industry that it can't afford to pay wait staff a living wage? - then it dawned on me that there's *some* logic to it. Servers are incentivized to earn their tip, i.e. be efficient and courteous. I'll confess that I have used it to my advantage once or twice: in an encounter with a particularly supercilious waitress in a Manhattan restaurant, I wrote "0.00" into the tip field, circled it, and scribbled a note saying "Does this suggest something?" 

Where I live, a "service charge" obviates the need for tipping, which is both good and bad. Pro: the system is perfectly clear; there's little room for misunderstanding or argument. Con: service staff aren't encouraged to try a little harder.

One thing that always bugged me about both methods (the service charge, like a tip, is calculated on the size of the bill, numerically speaking): how much a table spends isn't always commensurate with how much work is involved in waiting on it. A family of four ordering pasta plates might spend less than a couple dining on lobster, but require a lot more attention and effort. 

[spoon]

5 hours ago, reader said:

Mixed shop.

They exploit the fact that the vast majority of shops in Silom/Surawong don’t require minimum tips. 

Classic Cheap Charlie behavior. And it’s consistently on display.

I've patronized Prime and would be embarrassed to tip less than 500. 

For me, silom/surawong area is a given. Min 500 is reasonable to me as well. But alas, even very well established prime wouldnt dare put higher min tips, as to a thai, or well known customers, it always means HE a given. Thus why i believe normal massage places tend to put low min or no tips guide at all. 

If u received more than just massage, i do believe 500 or higher is warranted, more if any sexual favor involved. Again, back home, when this happen in a legit place, which again, rarely do, masseur will brings up expected tips and only proceed if agreed. This also happened in thailand on several occasions. 

I wonder if your friend masseur did communicate the expected tips since he is providing service beyond massage?

[reader]

7 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

I am much, much happier in countries, like in Asia, where tipping is not expected. Thailand is actually one of those countries.

It's a misnomer to refer to Thailand as a country where tipping is not expected in the area of massage. Less than 95 percent of the massage industry in Thailand is aimed at or available to farangs. The remaining five percent is an outgrowth of the Vietnam War period when the population was quick to capitalize on the presence of western young men who were making Bangkok and Pattaya R&R havens. But massage parlors existed long before that event to service the local population. Without "tipping" or some other type of service fee, it would have been unable to sustain itself.

Without the tradition of tipping, the influx of young men from ASEAN countries would have never come about. Nor would the they come to dominate the go-go bars we discuss so much on these pages. Tips  make up their livelihood. I hope that doesn't leave you anyting less than happy.

It's noteworthy that in the Saphan Kwai area that primarily serves the local population, not only is the tipping culture firmly entrenched, so are posted minimum tips.

 

 

[reader]

5 hours ago, scott456 said:

I don't think Google's answer is for Thailand, nor for sex massage. LOL.  You need to chill.

And yes, when I got the free 30 minute foot massage at the Thai Airways airport business class lounge, I tipped 100 baht even though the massage was free.  I thought my tip amount was ok.

Heartened to hear that you don't use Google. Guess what thew me off was that you cited it as the rationale for determining the customary tip.

Tbh, I don't think getting a foot massage in the Thai business class lounge quite equates with the service massage shops provide.

[reader]

1 hour ago, spoon said:

For me, silom/surawong area is a given. Min 500 is reasonable to me as well. But alas, even very well established prime wouldnt dare put higher min tips, as to a thai, or well known customers, it always means HE a given. Thus why i believe normal massage places tend to put low min or no tips guide at all.

I would agree with you about Prime. But Prime is unique because it has a long-established reputation for what you refer to as an exclusively "legit" shop.

But for the other shops in the area, the reason they don't require minimum tips is that none want to be the first in fear of losing business to competitors. So it boils down to favor status quo.

[jason1975]

Thank you for your trip report @moistmango Witty and insightful. Lots of useful update for my trip to BKK next weekend.

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, jason1975 said:

Thank you for your trip report @moistmango Witty and insightful. Lots of useful update for my trip to BKK next weekend.

I just got back from 2 weeks in Thailand and 1 in Bali.....I might write a few things, but not a full trip report. 

I went knowing full well it was low/monsoon season....so nothing spectacular happened sexually NOTHING, but I did go the the Tiger Park and see the laser mountain Buddha and some elephants, that was a first for me.

On tipping, I went to Prime for my 1st time, stated minimum tip was 100.... @reader , I think some people have gotten too much out of hand with tipping, I was going to give 200 and at last minute gave 300, you think 100% tip is the going rate?

Talk to a hotel cleaner or receptionist and you'll see how normal people are appreciative of whatever tip they receive, like Mac said, not every country has a tipping culture. I read numerous reports here of non-performing guys STILL get paid for doing minimal or no service, where's the incentive for them to even try? Might as well invite the cute guy from 7/11 over and pay him 2000 baht just for chatting, he'll certainly appreciate it more. 

[reader]

2 hours ago, floridarob said:

I think some people have gotten too much out of hand with tipping, I was going to give 200 and at last minute gave 300, you think 100% tip is the going rate?

On that subject, I believe the one you should be asking is the guy who provide you with service. If you're both satisfied, it's a win-win.

Looking back on my last two trips (both 60 days), I averaged about one massage every other day. They were all in the Saphan Kwai and Silom areas. So the total was somewhere in the vicinity to 56 because I didn't have any on first and last days. Of that number I had three of what I would consider disappointing or unsatisfactory.

Maybe I'm just easy to please. Maybe I've just been lucky in picking the right guys. My typical tip is 1000-1200 for one hour and 1500-1700 for 90 min. Judging by how they were received, I considered it a win-win for all concerned.

Quite a few of the guys became repeat providers. I enjoy getting to know them and learning something about their lives outside of the shop.

I'm aware that there are members who have posted about unsatisfactory massage experiences, but wouldn't say they were numerous which is a highly subjective term. To some, five might constitute numerous, to others it may mean 25, 50 or a 100.

I've very much enjoyed my experiences with these young men. You won't find me apologizing for coming to their defense.

Go back a few years and many of us were bemoaning the fact that Thailand was closed and we couldn't wait to return. Now that we're traveling again, the enchantment seems to have faded for some posters. Just glad I'm not one of them. 🙂

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, floridarob said:

I just got back from 2 weeks in Thailand and 1 in Bali.....I might write a few things,

you better do please

[omega]

Another wonderful report. Hopefully tonights fare went well.

On tipping, I think the meaning of the word in relation to sex services is different matter to the use of the word else where.

Hopefully, the service provider is indepdendent, and with a minimum its right that good  service is rewarded.

When it comes to the more mundane service industry, such as waiters, bar staff and such, I tend to think it is delegating the responsibility of performance management onto the customer.

It's an awful way to do business for the customer, and the staff.  Makes the employer money tho.