Countries with the most LGBT people

[macaroni21]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iM3Uh5m3WoM

Top ten, and one of them is from Southeast Asia - but it isn't Thailand.

[forky123]

Not really the countries with the most LGBT people, more the 10 countries where people are more able and safe to be out. 

[PeterRS]

26 minutes ago, forky123 said:

Not really the countries with the most LGBT people, more the 10 countries where people are more able and safe to be out. 

The video does actually say at the start that these are the countries with the most LGBT people. That certainly is not true of Singapore and I find it rather an extraordinary choice. Most majority Chinese communities have an in-built aversion to their sons being gay. Thankfully this is changing quite quickly, but Taiwan and Hong Kong are way ahead of Singapore in my view and both are at least as safe. And as both have been more tolerant of the LGBT community for longer, I would place either ahead of Singapore. It's true that Singapore may be one of the cruisiest cities on the planet for those who like Asian guys, but not many of those guys you see on Orchard Road will be openly 'out'.

It was only at the start of this year that the dreaded Section 377A of the penal Code was finally abolished. Until then, it was technically illegal to be gay. The Prime Minster had said some years ago he had to keep the law as it was but the government would not act on it. The city state has had gay bars and saunas for years but many Singaporeans remained afraid to come out - and still remain so.

[reader]

Although I have no reason to doubt that Brazil and Spain would score high even in a scientifically-conducted poll, but anyone who's been to Thailand (every body here I'd guess) likely believes it belongs in the top 10.  Or have my last 21 years been a total deception?

[macaroni21]

@PeterRS wrote: Most majority Chinese communities

Technically, you're correct that Singapore is a majority-Chinese city, and I often hear this kind or argument that lumps Singapore with Hong Kong and Taiwan because of this statistic, but my own observations about Singapore and Hong Kong are that they are very different. I've had work projects with several companies based in Singapore and in Hong Kong, but none based in Taiwan so I will leave Taiwan out of these comments. When one works with a company for a period of time, interacting with various levels of staff, one gets to see a different side of a society than if one were only a tourist. 

In Singapore, the staff in all the companies I have been engaged wth were multi-ethnic. The language they use among themselves was English; I have a feeling that the media they consume is likewise skewed to English language (i.e. more westernised) media. In Hong Kong, other than senior management, the middle and junior levels of staff I dealt with were all local Chinese and if I were not in the conversation, they would be speaking Cantonese among themselves. In fact, even when I was in the conversation, many of the middle and junior staff would stumble when trying to speak in English and would need someone else to translate for them. I am pretty sure they consume primarily Chinese or Cantonese media.

In Hong Kong, each time I was invited out for a meal by the middle managers, it would be for Chinese food, such that the one exception was memorable: Lo, they chose a Vietnamese restaurant - which they considered exotic enough. In Singapore, when I hung out with the middle and even junior staff, there would be all kinds of food from Indian paratha to pizza, from shawarma to sushi. In short, a multi-ethnic group of employees consuming multi-origin food.

I don't claim that my experiences are representative, on the other hand, they are more in-depth than merely tourist experiences, involving ordinary people far from the tourist industry, and usually sustained over a longish period for each project. I had the privilege of observing them as they interacted with each other in their workplaces and with each other. What I have taken away is a sense that culture-wise, Singapore is rather different from Hong Kong. I mentioned media, because media influences attitudes and culture. Singapore is multi-ethnic, multi-cuisine, multi-language at many levels, whereas Hong Kong is a very Chinese city with a cosmopolitan veneer (e.g. in the same way that Shanghai and Beijing are).

That still doesn't tell me very much about societal attitudes towards LGBT - not a subject I enquired much about anyway - but here's another interesting thing: In the Singapore companies, I have seen openly gay managers. (At least two if my memory over the years serves me well). In both those companies, the staff all knew that so-and-so was gay. I have not seen a similar situation in the Hong Kong companies I worked with. But then, mine is a tiny sample.

Basically my point is this: While it may be true that Chinese families have great difficulty accepting that their sons are gay, Singapore families, regardless of genes, are less Chinese than Hong Kong families, culturally. This then poses this question: does that mean it is easier for Singapore LGBT to be out, and to answer Yes to a survey question?

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

This then poses this question: does that mean it is easier for Singapore LGBT to be out, and to answer Yes to a survey question?

very good point !

[PeterRS]

Having lived in Hong Kong for two decades, worked there for a further 17 years and been a very frequent visitor to Singapore throughout all that time, I find @macaroni21's comments very perceptive but only partly in line with my own views. What I will add is that while both cities have changed dramatically during all that time, I think Hong Kong has changed more quickly in terms of the cultural views of the two populations. 

No doubt this is in large part a result of Hong Kong having been a colony until 1997. On the surface one of the world's great glittering financial centres. Underneath, until its final decade or so of British rule, a nasty little crime ridden swamp where a draconian largely British-led corrupt police force was virtually hand in hand with the triad gangs. By the mid 1970s, the Independent Commission Against Corruption had been set up and this certainly helped clean up both the police, the judiciary and the civil service. But whereas there had always been a thriving gay underground, both privately and with closely-monitored gay bars and one mostly gay disco, part of the police force brief still remained the weeding out of gay men, especially those in prominent positions, as evidenced in the establishment of the Special Investigations Unit (SIU) in the late 1970s.

This unit was thrust into the headlines with the death of a Scottish Police Inspector John MacLennan in January 1980. Found in his locked apartment with 5 gunshot wounds to his torso (but none to his heart or his head), the police ruled this a suicide. As details of the event dribbled out, public ridicule was heaped on the police in charge and even on the need for the SIU to be abolished. I wrote a series of five posts about this particular suicide/murder some time ago, the first of which is this one -

Although it was to take a further decade, that death started the process of changing the colonial anti-sodomy law. Thereafter many gays were soon to come out of the closet and gay saunas, bars and nightclubs opened relatively quickly. Hong Kong therefore had quite a head start on Singapore. 

In Singapore under Lee Kwan Yew, laws were equally harsh in many areas of society. When Go Chok Tong took over in 1990 he promised greater openness and freedom. But when their People's Action Party lost votes at the following general election, he reneged on that promise. Even up to the turn of the millennium most Singaporeans were in fear of Section 377A (the anti-gay law) which could and did result in some gay men ending up in prison for around 2 years. There was no real gay infrastructure, although the very large Zouk club did have a fun gay section. And some hotels had weekend Sunday gay afternoons - as at the Pan Pacific Hotel around the early 1990s.

In general, though, there was a fear especially of entrapment. It was quite common for young police officers to cruise popular areas frequented by gay men to try to establish a hook up. This was especiaily true at the beach. The guys who attempted a hook up were then arrested and charged. Even as late as June last year, the city-state's Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam said on a BBC interview show, "a significant portion of our people, the middle ground as it were, do not want that law repealed." But then that had always been the government line. The change in the law since then has not been met with any form of protest, apart from the mega-Evangelical Christian Churches!

I found that it was only around 2000 that Singapore gay men started to become more open. For decades there had been one bar here or there which welcomed gay men but then quickly closed. The longest established one was in Lucky Plaza off Orchard Road, Vincent's Lounge which opened in 1989. A small narrow bar, it was about the only formal gay meeting place where locals could meet foreigners, apart occasionally from fitness centres in hotels. More small gay bars opened, my favourite being Backstage. Gay saunas also opened. The only one I attended was a lovely small one named Rairua outside the city centre. It was the first to introduce all nude nights. Sadly it closed after only three years.

Going back to @macaroni21's comments, I believe the reason for his having come across more openly gay managers in Singapore than Hong Kong is partly, as he suggests, because Hong Kong is a far more Chinese society and the Chinese managers in a work setting prefer to be more restrained in discussing and particularly openly making others aware of their own sexuality. This is true even in multi-national companies. I have a close American friend who worked in a very senior position in an American multi national. His secretary, his boss and a few of his fellow managers were aware he was gay. But not most others. Singapore has quickly become more open - but publicly I believe this remains only for a very few. I do not believe it is in general easier for Singaporeans to be openly out.

Lastly on this topic I have always found Singapore guys seem more gay and sometimes act slightly gay, even though they are totally straight. Again this seems something to do with local culture. 30 years or so ago I recall visiting a hugely popular nightly cabaret show in the Boom Boom room. Hosted by  a bisexual/gay entertainer, it included drag queens, very risque jokes and routines and every night had the local young audience in fits of laughter. I noticed that entering and leaving the club, many of the boys were almost acting gay - even though they were clearly with their girl friends. There is a chameleon-like quality to many SIngapore guys which I rarely find in more straight-forward Hong Kong.

[Mavica]

A meaningless, insulting video.

[xpaulo]

I'm curious about the belief that people are generally on a spectrum when it comes to sexual desire... so some men are happy to have gay sex in some situations, but generally are straight... while some others are truly repulsed.... and vice versa.... I remember an American co-worker in Europe telling us in a bar how much he liked licking another guy's asshole, but the thought of licking a women's vagina was disgusting...and people at a nearby table exchanging glances. It's been my impression straight guys in some countries are more willing to do male escorting than straight guys in other countries. I noticed that Canada did not make the top ten which was kind of surprising, but also not surprising. My feeling is Canadians are more conformist than some countries... ie the United States, and more reluctant to step out from what's considered normal, even if they would like to.

[macaroni21]

@xpaulo we shouldn't take such surveys too seriously. I wondered about how Turkey made the list while Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries did not. Actually, we don't even know which countries were in the survey in the first place. At best it is some poll that measures how many people will say "yes" to a question from a less-than-representative sample, so, if it measures anything, it is no more than the degree by which people feel free to say they are LGBT. 

I treat it as little more than a fun thing, even if it has a grain of truth.

@PeterRS I think we need to be careful not to make too much of laws. Social attitudes can be vastly different from what the law says. From my observations of Singapore - and from your comments too about straight behaviour and how, when the law was finally repealed, there was no more than a whimper - social attitudes are a lot more liberal on LGBT issues than what we read from the law books. Gee, if we relied on laws to assess social attitudes, then places such as Korea and the Philippines which have not had anti-gay laws for decades, if ever,  (as far as I know, if I'm mistaken, please point out) should also demonstrate accepting social attitudes. From what I have read and from several visits to these two countries, that's clearly not the case.

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

I think we need to be careful not to make too much of laws. Social attitudes can be vastly different from what the law says. From my observations of Singapore - and from your comments too about straight behaviour and how, when the law was finally repealed, there was no more than a whimper - social attitudes are a lot more liberal on LGBT issues than what we read from the law books.

I totally agree. But my experience of Singapore going back to 1980 is clearly different from yours. I have visited quite a few Singaporeans in their homes over the last 15 or so years - mostly people (basically straight) whom I have got to know well through work - and spent a good amount of time in government and other offices. Of course, some people in Singapore are perfectly happy discussing homosexuality and even having been 'out' for many years. About 5 years ago I was invited for dinner in a business calleague's apartment (a 'straight' lady). Of the 8 of us around the table, 3 were openly gay Singaporean guys. It was the same sort of company I have enjoyed at many lunches and dinners in Hong Kong, although most Hong Kong people prefer to entertain in a restaurant than at home. I suspect it all boils down to personal experience - and perhaps to the type of business we work in.