Another one caught...making his own videos with a 12 year old

[Gaybutton]

I do not mean to gang up on you

Don't worry about that. Gang away! You, Soi10Tom, and everybody else are entitled to their opinions just as I am entitled to mine. There is never a problem about disagreement on this board as long as there are no personal attacks, and there have been none. Never think your opinion has to agree with mine (even though you're dead wrong whenever it doesn't . . . .)

[Guest Astrrro]

As mentioned above, language is not static.

 

Common usage of the word pedophile includes those who mess with both the pre and post pubescent kids.

 

 

[Guest MonkeySee]

I'll tell you what. The next time someone is arrested for being a pedophile, but in reality he's merely a pederast, just have him open his dictionary for the police. I'm sure that will make a huge difference.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought you have said in the past, that you have not heard of a farang being arrested for being with a 15, 16, 17 year old bar boy? Seems the only pedo arrests that I hear or read about are for under 15.

[Gaybutton]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought you have said in the past, that you have not heard of a farang being arrested for being with a 15, 16, 17 year old bar boy?

I have never heard of a farang arrested when taking a boy off from a bar at all, regardless of the boy's age. But bars are not the only places where farang find under-age boys. I've heard about plenty of arrests when a farang picked up an under-age boy freelancing on the streets.

 

Once in a while I have heard of arrests when bars were raided and a farang was caught with an under-age boy in the bar's short time room, but it's been about ten years since I last heard of such an arrest.

 

That doesn't mean it's worth the risk. Just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean it never happens or can't start happening. Also, few hotels are going to let someone in if he has an under-age boy in tow.

[Guest taylorsquare]

Well I dont wish to keep prolonging this topic..........however,what has me of concern is this,

the alleged paedophile caught at the beginning of this topic ONLY spoke with the alleged 10yo boy,he didnt even get back to the room,which means if you speak ,sit with younger than legal age boys in Thailand /pattaya you could be in trouble as this guy was/is.

 

 

Imagine you accidently go into a go go bar and you sit down and you find they have underage workers.

Maybe....i dont know exactly what they did in pattaya to be arrestedbut maybe they accidently walked into one of these bars and get filmed by undercover agents and then arrested a few months later ?

 

 

The point is not to go into these go go bars i suppose.Not to keep talking to under 18yo boys.

[Gaybutton]

if you speak ,sit with younger than legal age boys in Thailand /pattaya you could be in trouble as this guy was/is.

That's not true. There is absolutely no reason to start making those kinds of assumptions or to create problems that don't exist. A person could easily be visiting Thai friends who happen to have children and could be doing nothing more sinister than taking one of their boys shopping for something. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for that. A farang married to a Thai wife, and their children have a complete Thai appearance, never seem to have any problems. A straight farang could have a Thai girlfriend or Thai wife who already has children of her own. You could have a Thai boyfriend and his brother or cousin or friend is visiting. To assume you could be arrested for merely having contact with an under-age Thai boy is ridiculous.

 

You don't get in trouble for merely talking with an under-age boy or even being with an under-age boy. You get in trouble for engaging in sex with an under-age boy. I know of no farang who has ever been arrested for talking with or even being with an under-age boy unless there was sexual activity. You don't need to be making assumptions that any contact at all with under-age boys is going to lead to arrest. That's simply not true and it doesn't happen.

 

The article says, "they had arrested Mr. Paul Dixon [45], a British national, for having sex with a Thai male under 15 years of age." It doesn't say he was arrested for talking with the boy. It says he was "arrested by a police team when he ventured into the area in the early hours of the morning and propositioned a young teenager for sex." It's much more likely that the police, whether Thai or Australian, had been after him for a while anyway. My guess is they were able to overhear him offering money to the boy for sex and/or he had actually handed money over to the boy. In any case, according to the article he had actually propositioned the boy.

 

In any case, you're not going to get in trouble unless you engage in under-age sex. However, I do agree that you are definitely safe if you avoid being alone with an under-age boy.

[Guest Soi10Tom]

I completely agree with Gaybutton on this issue. You will have no problem at all with being around or talking to children in Thailand. Kids have no fear of talking to strangers and people will think nothing of you talking to kids. The culture is very different from western cultures where children are taught to fear strangers. I have had kids just grab my hand at the water park because they were scared by the crowd and to help them get out of the water. Last month High School kids had a home work assignment to interview a farang in English...and to make sure the kids didn't cheat the teacher required a picture of the kid with the farang. One time a lady at Royal Garden ask my partner and I to watch her little girl while she went to the rest room.

 

The only people that have problems in Thailand are the ones that "dance in the fire" and start fooling around with the street urchins, or start up some sort of an illegal thing with the maid's kid.

[Guest laurence]

The point is not to go into these go go bars i suppose.Not to keep talking to under 18yo boys.

 

If at all uncomfortable in a situation then you should be discreet and careful. I sure would not be seen with or talking with some of the urchins in Sunee Plaza. Cameras and "spys" in go go bars are a concern so, if not familiar with the situation, keep your hands to yourself when in the clubs, if in doubt. I have seen some outrageous behavior between farang and some of the go gos which, in itself, could be of an illegal nature. Oftentimes the farang are drunk and lose common sense.

[Gaybutton]

Cameras and "spys" in go go bars are a concern

Are they? I'm not so sure. I no of no arrests, hassles, questioning, or anything else as a result of those cameras. I think that's another example of creating a problem that simply does not exist. If anyone is ever arrested because of what is recorded on those cameras, that's when I'll agree with you.

 

Again, the only time you have to worry is if you engage in sex with an under-age boy. As for the bars that hire under-age boys, I don't like it. I think it's wrong. I think a stop should be put to it. But the facts are the facts and one fact is there has never been an arrest of a farang in a bar who was simply there watching the go-go boys, having a boy sit with him, or even fondling the boy.

 

Even the police seem to feel that it is not incumbent on a bar customer to check the age of the boy unless he takes the boy off. And, again, as far as I know there has never been an arrest of a farang when he took a boy off from a bar. Not ever.

[Guest laurence]

Are they? I'm not so sure. I no of no arrests, hassles, questioning, or anything else as a result of those cameras. I think that's another example of creating a problem that simply does not exist. If anyone is ever arrested because of what is recorded on those cameras, that's when I'll agree with you.

 

Taylorsquare raises concerns that Australian authorities may be undercover in order to observe/snoop/entrap/etc unsuspecting farang perhaps in bars. That is not beyond the realm of possibility. It that were the case they could enlist Thai police to get any surveillance tapes. Once the Aussie returns to his homeland he is then arrested. Would anyone really know the circumstances behind the arrest if it were not in Thailand? Surely the bar owners would not be publicizing their involvement.

Fact is the guy next to you in a bar could be a cop and fact is there are cameras in the bars.

 

[Guest Astrrro]

Curious as to how you guys think that undercover cops act in bars?

 

Do they go alone or with a partner?

 

Drink much?

 

How do they dress?

 

Tip the boys?

 

Tip the mamasan?

 

Smile at the boys?

[Gaybutton]

That is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Anything is possible, especially if you're paranoid enough. But is it likely? Probable? For the sake of argument, let's suppose your scenario is exactly what happens and people get arrested in their home countries because they were caught on tape in a Thai bar that employs under-age boys. Do you have any evidence at all of this ever happening? Even one newspaper article supporting that theory? If you do, that's one thing. If you don't, then what's the problem? Can you explain to me how those same Australian police officers would know, by looking at those tapes, that the person seen in the bar is someone Australian? I have to admit that I didn't know a good method by which to determine someone's nationality is by looking at his image on a CCTV tape.

[Guest laurence]

In reply to GB's questions, etc, I don't know. I am not a cop and am unfamiliar with their tactics. What I am saying is that a motivated authority could visit go go bars or wherever and observe the behavior of the patrons and even video tape or photograph them. Easy to do. I am speaking of behavior of a sexual nature involving someone who is likely underage. With this info they could them pursue an arrest when the person returns to their home country. GB, you are the one always harping about involvement with underage, why are you thus arguing with me? All I am saying is people should be aware that their actions may be under some sort of police scrutiny. Ever watch that show on American TV, To Catch a Preditor? Ever watch TV shows that show cops arranging "stings" to catch prostitutes and their johns, or drug stings? These things do happen.

[Guest laurence]

Curious as to how you guys think that undercover cops act in bars?

Do they go alone or with a partner?

Drink much?

How do they dress?

Tip the boys?

Tip the mamasan?

Smile at the boys?

 

Actually I have asked myself that question.

If they are Australian cops then they are likely drinking a lot!

I think it is safe to say that if they have a boy sitting with them and their hands in his pants, then they are not cops.

One time I was certain I had ID an uncover agent; not smiling, just sitting bored, not drinking, well dressed, and alone. Then was informed by my friend that this guy was a regular and a rather notorious one who loved to handle the merchandise.

 

I think the real tip off is if they are wearing shorts, long black socks and scandals.

 

[KhorTose]

I think the real tip off is if they are wearing shorts, long black socks and scandals.

 

I am a fan of Camel shirts. One of mine has a badge on the pocket. Bet I could scare you to death with that, one--assuming you were doing something wrong, which I know you wouldn't be.

[Guest alaan]

There are about 3 threads regarding underage issues on this forum already but I'll add my one concern and one comment regarding the underage issue on this thread.

 

My concern being....that before i had a regular guy..........when visiting Thailand I liked visiting sunee......i liked the laid-back atmosphere compared to the pushy doormen and mamasans in Boyztown.......but hated going into a bar and seeing obviously underaged boys working there as gogo/waiters or whatever.

 

i found that it just spoiled my enjoyment of bar hopping owing to the fact i felt so uncomfortable in that type of bar...and usually i didn't even stay for a drink i just moved on........but for me the point is.................that in those bars there ARE also very nice 18 yo + boys and the sunee bars tend to have plenty of the gayfem type of 18+ guys i prefer...so as a result of having young boys there i missed out on the 18+ boys too.... and possibly an over-18yo boy missing out on an off.

 

And even with Gaybutton and others assurances that it should not and has never been a problem just being in a bar....................I just hate to think of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when some official or police chief decides on a particular night to arrest all patrons in a bar because there are u18s there... even if there are no charges brought.......... if there are press/tv there with photos/ video it can be portrayed that in some way YOU are involved......innocent or not. That still is my greatest concern on a personal level.

 

My Comment on the underage issue is this..........it does get boring and tired all the fuss and big broo-ha-ha and endless commentry about foreigners involved in the underage problem in Thailand when the fact of the matter is .....that it is currently.......and it has always been...... and it always will be...... very common for Thais themselves to be involved with underaged boys and girls throughout the whole of thailand and it is accepted........... as it has been for years before foreigners were targeted .

 

That market is so massive that the foreigner element is but a blip on the radar...virtually zero in the opinion of Thais and vitually of zero interest to them....except of course when there are foreign agencies and extortion money to be made out of it....a Thai would have to be very very careless and indeed wreckless to have any kind of problem.....involvement as a procurer for foreigners being classed as both......... The only time it becomes a problem for thais is if there is an element of 'no permission'...either from the youngster or their parents..then it is rape.... even Thais draw the line there. But on the rest of the underage stuff in Thailand? I think no problem until a foreigner is involved. If there was no foreign government pressure on the Thais and no foreign agencies for child protection permitted to interfere i dont personally think it would even be an issue.

 

That is my observation and opinion........i DO NOT however condone it in any way ..... i hate to see mature male foreigners with underaged boys... and i find it revolting to see foreigners frolicking about with youngsters in bars...even fondling them discretley ...whether the foreigner is old/ unattractive etc... or not i have to admit i even dislike open sexual displays with legal age guys in bars in front of everyone...i know this can be a turn-on for some or even of no concern to others but to me i just find it so.......creepy....is the only word i can use to explain my feelings about it.

 

For instance i liked to visit Krazy Dragon i liked to look at the boys as they danced above you and from table to table...but i hated when they crouched down and an erection is suddenly wobbling virtually in your face...just not my cup of tea....nor are the goings-on on the sofas with the boys and customers... i'm all for a bit of flesh that is why we are there ......but i think only to help make a choice for taking off a boy for fun in private... but hey! we are all different...each to their own..... but not in front of me thanks!

 

Just a couple of comments............. but long ones i'm afraid!

 

[Gaybutton]

GB, you are the one always harping about involvement with underage, why are you thus arguing with me?

My stance on under-age sex has nothing to do with my argument. Yes, I am vehemently opposed to pedophiles, pedarasts, or whatever else one wishes to call it. I also consistently warn people of the consequences if caught engaging in under-age sex.

 

But I am also opposed to misrepresentation of facts and attempts to frighten people about things that do not exist. Some people are trying to portray scenarios they are just conjuring up as if they do exist. Facts are facts, no matter what my personal stance happens to be. So, I'll repeat the facts:

 

1. No farang has ever been arrested for being a customer in a bar that employs under-age boys.

 

2. No farang has ever been arrested based on CCTV tapes in a bar.

 

3. No farang has ever been arrested as a result of taking a boy off from a bar.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the only farang arrests for engaging in under-age sex have occurred when a farang picks up a boy off the streets or starts luring neighborhood boys.

 

If I'm wrong about any of that, I'll be glad to eat my words as soon as someone can demonstrate that such arrests actually have occurred after all.

 

People keep coming up with scenarios that simply never have happened and, so far, there is no indication those scenarios ever will happen. To me, it makes much more sense to talk about things that do happen rather than portraying things that could happen or don't happen as if they happen.

 

Am I saying it's perfectly ok to throw caution to the wind? Not at all. I think people are nuts if they don't make damned sure about a boy's age before taking him off from a bar, picking him up at the beach, picking him up at a shopping center, picking him up from the streets, or picking him up from anywhere else. I also think people are nuts if they meet boys through personals sites such as Gay Romeo if they take the boy for sex without first making sure about his age.

 

I don't believe in frightening people with a bunch of bullshit that never occurs. Alaan's post above is, to my mind, a perfect example of what can happen when people consistently post about things that never occur to the point that people begin to believe it. He expressed concern that he might be present in a bar when a police raid occurs and could end up arrested simply for being in there. Meanwhile, the fact is that no such arrest has ever occurred and there is no indication that such an arrest is ever likely to occur. As far as I know, the worst that has ever happened to a farang when caught up in a raid was a passport check, and that happened only once, and it wasn't even in Sunee Plaza.

[Guest Astrrro]

I was at a Sunee area bar during a raid in which every boy but scampered off the stage about 3 seconds before the cops walked in. That doesn't mean they were all underage; it's very possible that there were boys from Laos or boys who would fail a piss test or simply boys not wanting to get caught up in a raid.

 

In that case the cops had zero interest whatsoever in the farangs.

 

We had just paid our bin. If not, there would have been no one to pay it to.

 

[Guest Soi10Tom]

Gaybutton is 100% correct. I really don't understand where some of these outlandish scenarios are coming from. Please folks, stop running about yelling that the sky is falling....it has never hit anyone.

 

The bars pay for the privilege of breaking the rules and not having problems with the police. All of the police raids are telegraphed to the bars long before the police show up. The police are not going to threaten their children's college fund by causing Bars, Farang in the bar or bar boys a problem.

 

I have seen many police raids. The police are doing pee drug testing, not age testing! The boys that have not done anything wrong joke, chat, and generally enjoy the excitement. The police are always very civil and the boys that test positive are carted away to pay a fine....and come back to work the next day. Farang are ignored....you would have to be a drunk that caused a face problem with policeman before there would be a problem.

 

Relax!!!!!!! before we start hearing stories of World Vision paratroopers being dropped from helos into Sunee at 3AM.

[PattayaMale]

Relax!!!!!!! before we start hearing stories of World Vision paratroopers being dropped from helos into Sunee at 3AM.

 

Interestingly, last night I was just leaving Sunee Plaza about 3am and what an amazing sight. Seeing these "angels" para shooting to the ground from 3 World Vision Helicopters.

 

AND I AM NOT MAKING THAT UP!!

[Guest MonkeySee]

AND I AM NOT MAKING THAT UP!!

And I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you!

[Gaybutton]

And I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you!

My cousin bought a bridge in Brooklyn once. Unfortunately it was a bridge made by a dentist.

[Guest lester1]

This has been a good debate on an old favourite amongst topics, and by now has probably been done to death. I would mention one more thing. Although I would agree with gaybutton about various writers here being over worried or paranoid with regard offs from bars, cops in bars and CCTV in bars had we been writing this at this time LAST year. However, experienced Thai watchers will have noticed a massive rise in arrests since about May 2008. True, none have involved the scenarios GB outlines as safe, but do suggest a change of policy on the part of the authorities. I am assuming they have been putting the frighteners on the urchins, not to scare them away but to make them give up their customers, then subsequently ID'd the customers and then kept them under observation until an arrest opportunity comes along. I am not sure they are working through some sort of 'list', but are certainly being put under pressure by foreign NGO's or governments to clean up the place.

Bearing this in mind, and still agreeing with GB, if would not surprise me if there might be other changes of tactic as well. I hope not as just one use of CCTV, or an arrest in a bar will make gays think twice before coming to Pattaya.

 

[Guest alaan]

I don't really care for MY point of view to be rubbished by YOU, soi 10 or anybody else for that matter Gaybutton "as an example of a bunch of bullshit" ......it is MY point of view.........it is MY fear and it is arrogant of anybody to write it off as "bullshit" when they are not in any way able to guarantee or have influence over any sudden change in policy with regards to boy bars who have underage staff in the future...............now THAT is a fact!

 

Do you seriously believe that your constant repeating of your historical facts on this forum as some kind of niave future assurity against a senario such as mine actually happening count for anything? NO they mean absolutely NOTHING in the face of.... or in relation to.... a sudden change of future policy towards the customers or patrons of bars engaging in employment of underage boys............

 

Nor do i accept that my point of view is "frightening" anybody who has a mind of their own. Nobody HAS to believe my post or any other post.......the members here are not the children you seem to think they are going by your patronising replies. Yes we do understand your blatently obvious historical references regarding precedences already set.

 

We do infact actually comprehend and take them into consideration ...BUT care to take the attitude opposite to that of you and soi 10............that it is much more sensible to believe it does NOT make ANY sense to rely on things that have happened in the PAST as a basis for writing-off things that COULD happen in the future be they unlikely or not.

 

And I did NOT express concerns about being arrested in any old bar simply by being there ............NO! what i did was express MY concerns that all patrons in a bar WITH underage staff ....... for whatever REASON could be the victim of a raid and even possible arrest due to there being underage staff there..........

 

Those REASONS could be, and i am only suggesting here... a newly appointed official wanting to make his mark by arresting customers as well as owners and staff .......a sudden change in attitude to foreigners who simply visit a bar concerned with underaged employees.....pressure from foreign agencies for child welfare winning an arguement [possibly even being discussed at this time] to pressure local officials into taking further and more stringent action with regards to boy bars employing the underaged and possibly action against their patrons........officials from another division with a new set of rules which allow for arresting all in a bar involved with underage employees......

 

I dont know what the reason COULD be and for that matter neither do YOU and SOI 10! my fears are not, in my opinion beyond the realms of possibility, especially in a country where 'whims' have resulted in changes to bar policy in the past.....but if it did happen then it might well be your use of frightening that would have another meaning for those caught up in an 'unlikely' raid and I somehow think that no matter how convincing the claims that Gaybutton and Soi 10 said 'it should be ok because it hasn't happened before' i'm sure it would cut no ice at the time.

 

In fact i do seem to remember[and i am working from memory here without the benefit of having the actual posts] but the jist of the situation was that there was the same type of rubbishing of concerns made by posters when authorities were having more and more frequent raids on bars a few years ago and the closing times were changing on whims weekly....the assurances from you at that time based on historical precedences were that it will go back to the relaxed 2am + closing times...it always does you said!...BUT you were wrong in your advice...the closing times dug in at 1am! and were strictly enforced....not back to being relaxed as you 'predicted'.quote soi 10... "the sky is fallling " well it did!

 

And the same with the age limit to drink in a bar being raised to 20...... ridiculous you said how can an employee of 18 be able to work and drink in a bar with a customer but cannot go next door to a similar bar and have a drink with the same customer there ......illogical....makes no sense! yes and i agreed with those sentiments BUT..........now it is the law! quote soi 10.."the sky is falling " it did!

 

So there are examples of illogical and unlikely senarios in the past which became reality. They too, could have been classed as "the sky falling" by soi 10 then....but they happened and became law.

so therefore to discuss and be aware of possible senarios in the future is both relevant and sensible ...not simply "bullshit and frightening".

 

And to soi 10 also who feels HE is a big enough authority on the subject to declare that Gaybutton is indeed 100% correct........doesn't soi 10 realise that we all know and are aware of the possibility of bars being forewarned about raids etc etc etc and how the set-up works AT PRESENT........another who is patronising and also INCORRECT with some the 'facts' on which he pontificates... I PERSONALLY have different experience of being in a Pattaya venue which was NOT forewarned of a raid as expected because a DIFFERENT section of BANGKOK authorities with its own responsibilities and policies to uphold did the raids..... i both witnessed the raids and was told about the details by the OWNERS.....who in the same way as your goodself and Gaybutton niavely used historical presedence as his safeguard for unlikely events......well I can tell you if it wasn't for the money the owner had on him at the time as well as an upstairs room for those in the venue as under 20s drinkers and those working as u18s there would have been more fall-out for everyone there I can assure you.

 

For your further information he was threatened with immediate closure and arrest of all customers and employees in the bar.....a couple of customers were so concerned about the attitude of the officers towards everbody in that venue that they actually lent him some of the money to 'take care' of the [thankfully in this case]corrupt officers ...six in all!

 

So do not be drawn in by Gaybuttons overconfidence in history and Soi 10s assurances and indeed experiences of ALL raids being conducted in good harmony....the reason for the raids he has been in is to conduct pee tests... check licenses....straightforward and non-problematic [for customers] raids.....

 

BUT I would like to see your joking expression soi 10.......... if YOU are (hopefully not) the victim of the raid which happens to be the FIRST bar raid to be organised in conjuntion with foreign agencies and news teams by an official with the orders to arrest and detain customers as well as underage staff due to a sudden policy change........a change in policy for which they have not gone to the trouble of kindly advising you, gaybutton or anybody in advance.

 

Open your ears, eyes and mind GB and Soi 10....can you not see the way the anti-pedo movement is rising? It is nothing like the lip-service that was paid to it before.....it is NOT being addressed in the same way it was before....it is SERIOUS and there is MUCH more pressure from UK and other countries... you of course, are unaware of the rise in anti-pedo movements at home in the likes of the uk and it is extending its leagl tenticles to foreign shores and as you can see....... Australia involved in clampdowns on percieved child abuse...........they are now using entrapment not to extort money as before, but to PROSECUTE offenders....

 

Recently there was word of a black list of pattaya based foreigners engaging in underage abuse over a peroid of time....and after that was announced many long-time residents and known abusers were starting to be arrested on a regular basis with crimes going back to 2007 being investigated there is now a concerted effort on this front........and i have no problem with that ...........you might feel you can sit back and proclaim calmness and things will always remain as before ......... but the scenarios and concern are now in a different league to that of before and as i say......your historical FATCS mean NOTHING and the VERY RELEVANT questions being asked here by those you are accusing of being over-reacting posters and examples of a "bunch of bullshit" as they ask WHERE WILL IT GO NEXT?..... WHAT OTHER POSSIBLY EXTREME FORMS OF EVIDENCE MIGHT BE USED? What policies or methods might they stoop to? Do you know Gaybutton and Soi 10? NO! you certainly DO NOT!

 

Extreme, bullshit, panic? ......no it is simply sensible acknowledgement of the real chance of a change in direction away from your "estabished" list of facts to a possibly more extreme and aggresive method of netting child abusers.....but nets have the habit of catching innocent parties depending how far and deep they are cast!

And let us not forget that in Thailand you need to prove YOUR innocence and if you do not have the bail money.....you have to do that from a prison cell.

 

In my opinion only of course.

[Bob]

Rather needlessly shrill there.

 

Some posters in the past have on rare occasion indicated that the sky is falling. It hasn't as far as I'm concerned.

 

If you truly have the concern that you'll be the first known falang that was arrested for solely being in a bar where one or more underaged workers or patrons were present, fine, then don't put yourself in that possible position. You're entitled to your own opinion and your own fears, real or imagined.