Laos faces dire shortage of workers

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, reader said:

Among the factors that drove them to look elsewhere was runaway inflation, the fallout from the enormous debt service Laos pays to Chinese lenders

Interesting point - and very factual. The railroad between Vientiane and Kunming is costing Laos a pretty penny for its 30% share of a loan totalling around US$3.54 billion from the China ExIm Bank. Yet it could perhaps result in significant commercial development for Laos. Certainly for those in Thailand, it will be an easy way to reach Kunming and some of the wonders of China in Yunnan Province.

[vinapu]

8 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Yet it could perhaps result in significant commercial development for Laos. Certainly for those in Thailand, it will be an easy way to reach Kunming and some of the wonders of China in Yunnan Province.

one day they will start seeing economic benefits  of that rail for sure. As for Thailand , it certainly would be better if railway reached Thai  side  or at least stopped at the border crossing instaed of middle of nowhere near Vientiane. But certainly it can be improved and extended if money and political will be there.

For tourists is big improvement in travel time between Vientiane and Luang Prabang despite  of oddity  of both cities having airports closer to city center than their railway station. And ticket buying process  should be improved but at least they started somewhere.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, vinapu said:

one day they will start seeing economic benefits  of that rail for sure. As for Thailand , it certainly would be better if railway reached Thai  side  or at least stopped at the border crossing instaed of middle of nowhere near Vientiane. But certainly it can be improved and extended if money and political will be there.

As I understand it, the plan is to extend the rail line to Bangkok and then on to Singapore.

Timetable of the existing high speed service is here - https://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/laos/

[vinapu]

6 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

As I understand it, the plan is to extend the rail line to Bangkok and then on to Singapore.

I saw it but it looks Thais side is not that keen afraid it may put country into debt like Laos. Certainly Thai  railways need upgrade but whether it must by high speed type needs to be carefully considered. Country doesn't have few multimillion metropolis like Japan or China has so stream of passengers may not support expense 

[Keithambrose]

7 hours ago, vinapu said:

I saw it but it looks Thais side is not that keen afraid it may put country into debt like Laos. Certainly Thai  railways need upgrade but whether it must by high speed type needs to be carefully considered. Country doesn't have few multimillion metropolis like Japan or China has so stream of passengers may not support expense 

But, high speed more expensive, so more scope for higher and bigger brown envelopes!

[vinapu]

47 minutes ago, Keithambrose said:

But, high speed more expensive, so more scope for higher and bigger brown envelopes!

and more cement poured on oversized stations

[omega]

17 hours ago, forrestreid said:

I would agree with a lot of that analysis.

However, just to clarify, I never suggested that an "authoritarian" government is, in itself, a major restriction on development. Many non-Communist authoritarian governments, such as Chile under Pinochet, or South Korea under Park Chung Hee, achieved very high growth rates.

Authoritarian Vietnam has had very high growth rates since it more or less abandoned trying to implement Communism properly in the mid-1980s.

Laos, although not so far down this road as Vietnam, has managed quite respectable growth rates since the year 2000 or so. I get the impression that Laos is more corrupt than Vietnam (the main Achilles heel of an authoritarian government), which may slow it down.

But, like Vietnam, it is now catching up with the likes of Taiwan and South Korea.

By the way, I am not trying to minimise how terrible the experience of American bombing that Laos suffered between 1960 and 1975. However, I just don’t think it had that much impact on growth rates in Laos since peace came in 1975.

Since it's already being discussed... useful to note that Singapore, although a city state, is a one party authoritarian country that's done exeedingly well.

There are benefits to authoritarianism... but to realise it, the Government needs to be focused on doing right by the people and being highly resistant to corruption.

A benefit  of a well functioning democracy is that corrupt leaders can be voted out of office.

Corruption is the disease that prevents these countries from growing and progressing.

 

 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Keithambrose said:

But, high speed more expensive, so more scope for higher and bigger brown envelopes!

And think of all the land that has to be appropriated and then sold to the goverment at hugely inflated prices!

[reader]

3 hours ago, omega said:

A benefit  of a well functioning democracy is that corrupt leaders can be voted out of office.

Or in some cases voted back in.

[omega]

10 minutes ago, reader said:

Or in some cases voted back in.

That would make it a not well functioning democracy

[Keithambrose]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

And think of all the land that has to be appropriated and then sold to the goverment at hugely inflated prices!

Sold by members of the government, in their personal capacity! As in Cambodia.

[reader]

5 hours ago, omega said:

That would make it a not well functioning democracy

Point taken. 🙂

[PeterRS]

12 hours ago, omega said:

That would make it a not well functioning democracy

Like the USA and the UK, for example! 😵

[Keithambrose]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Like the USA and the UK, for example! 😵

Bit unfair on the UK, where I live. The Government may be incompetent, indeed is, but hardly as corrupt as Thailand and others. Also they will lose to Labour in the next election. 

PS I see the new PM in Thailand is launching an anti corruption drive!! Any advance on zero chance of success?

[PeterRS]

26 minutes ago, Keithambrose said:

Bit unfair on the UK, where I live. The Government may be incompetent, indeed is, but hardly as corrupt as Thailand and others. Also they will lose to Labour in the next election. 

PS I see the new PM in Thailand is launching an anti corruption drive!! Any advance on zero chance of success?

Agree I was probably a bit hard on the UK, but not the US. But when I lived and worked in the UK, I saw and heard about plenty of corruption at local Council level. But that was a very long time ago.

As for Thailand - No! In 2021 the outgoing PM stated he would drive out corruption "in the public sector" within 20 years. No one believed him then and no one believes it now. It does not take 20 years to drive out endemic corruption. Hong Kong effectively did it within 2 or 3 years. Its then governor, Sir Murray MacLehose, was perfectly well aware that many in the civil service, the police force and in the judiciary were corrupt - especially the police, many of whom were in the pockets of triad gangs. Hong Kong was in essence a cess pit of corruption. In 1974 he set up the Independent Commission Against Corruption, a body that had its own police force, civil servants and selected judiciary. Put simply, if anyone was charged with corruption, they were guilty until provded innocent. The ICAC was independent of all other law enforcement agencies and answerable only to the Governor.

At that time, 8 out of 10 public complaints were against the police. Soon the ICAC had forced 119 police officers to leave the force and others were charged with corruption. A history of the Hong Kong Judiciary from 1841 was commissioned in 2013 and the manuscript delivered in 2016. The book has never seen the light of day because the Chief Justice Geoffrey Ma Tao-li is worried that scandals involving some colonial judges will reflect badly on the institution, according to the South China Morning Post. One gay judge in the 1970s was regularly called 'Brenda'. He fled Hong Kong.

https://today.line.me/hk/v2/article/e9YoRn

Corruption still exists in Hong Kong but it is a fraction of what it used to be. Thailand could do the same, but there is neither the political will nor the personal desire. It is essentially a society that lives by corruption from to top of the government to the lowliest of village dwellers.

[omega]

3 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

Bit unfair on the UK, where I live. The Government may be incompetent, indeed is, but hardly as corrupt as Thailand and others. Also they will lose to Labour in the next election. 

PS I see the new PM in Thailand is launching an anti corruption drive!! Any advance on zero chance of success?

No, not really unfair on the UK.

The UK is highly corrupted. Anyone taking a cold hard look at the financial services that London provides can see that corruption is its lifeblood, and it's capilliaries spread throughout UK establishments and around the world.

[vinapu]

4 hours ago, omega said:

 

The UK is highly corrupted.

let's not overreact.

highly corrupted country would be one where you arrive with valid visa and border guard still asks for bribe to stamp you in. Or pilot refuses to take off if passengers don't chip in. Or they tell you there's no penicillin in the pharmacy but when you put proper note on the counter and say "keep the change" it miraculously appears from under the counter.

I haste to add those my personal experiences accumulated over the years.

[omega]

4 hours ago, vinapu said:

let's not overreact.

highly corrupted country would be one where you arrive with valid visa and border guard still asks for bribe to stamp you in. Or pilot refuses to take off if passengers don't chip in. Or they tell you there's no penicillin in the pharmacy but when you put proper note on the counter and say "keep the change" it miraculously appears from under the counter.

I haste to add those my personal experiences accumulated over the years.

And when all that money, corruptly obtained, and filtered up the chain to the big fish, needs to be laundered so they can buy yachts, fast cars and properties all over the world, which city do they go to?

Day to day life for the average British citizen doesn't involve direct contact with corruption, sure.

[Keithambrose]

11 hours ago, omega said:

No, not really unfair on the UK.

The UK is highly corrupted. Anyone taking a cold hard look at the financial services that London provides can see that corruption is its lifeblood, and it's capilliaries spread throughout UK establishments and around the world.

That would appear to be nonsense, and also does not involve the government. UK was =19 out of 180 in International Corruption index 2022.

[Keithambrose]

14 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Agree I was probably a bit hard on the UK, but not the US. But when I lived and worked in the UK, I saw and heard about plenty of corruption at local Council level. But that was a very long time ago.

As for Thailand - No! In 2021 the outgoing PM stated he would drive out corruption "in the public sector" within 20 years. No one believed him then and no one believes it now. It does not take 20 years to drive out endemic corruption. Hong Kong effectively did it within 2 or 3 years. Its then governor, Sir Murray MacLehose, was perfectly well aware that many in the civil service, the police force and in the judiciary were corrupt - especially the police, many of whom were in the pockets of triad gangs. Hong Kong was in essence a cess pit of corruption. In 1974 he set up the Independent Commission Against Corruption, a body that had its own police force, civil servants and selected judiciary. Put simply, if anyone was charged with corruption, they were guilty until provded innocent. The ICAC was independent of all other law enforcement agencies and answerable only to the Governor.

At that time, 8 out of 10 public complaints were against the police. Soon the ICAC had forced 119 police officers to leave the force and others were charged with corruption. A history of the Hong Kong Judiciary from 1841 was commissioned in 2013 and the manuscript delivered in 2016. The book has never seen the light of day because the Chief Justice Geoffrey Ma Tao-li is worried that scandals involving some colonial judges will reflect badly on the institution, according to the South China Morning Post. One gay judge in the 1970s was regularly called 'Brenda'. He fled Hong Kong.

https://today.line.me/hk/v2/article/e9YoRn

Corruption still exists in Hong Kong but it is a fraction of what it used to be. Thailand could do the same, but there is neither the political will nor the personal desire. It is essentially a society that lives by corruption from to top of the government to the lowliest of village dwellers.

Yes, good summary. I ran our HK office, solicitors, for 15 years, 1981 to 1996. I knew Brenda well. The CJ car was fitted for gay sex sessions! You may recall that the senior partner of a big UK/HK law firm was found dead in his swimming pool, with a manhole cover round his neck, suicide it seemed! The ICAC, as you say, was very successful, and scared the shit out of people.  Unfortunately, now it is Chinese ways!

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, Keithambrose said:

. I ran our HK office, solicitors, for 15 years, 1981 to 1996........ The CJ car was fitted for gay sex sessions! 

glad to learn you guys were busy at work there

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

You may recall that the senior partner of a big UK/HK law firm was found dead in his swimming pool, with a manhole cover round his neck, suicide it seemed! 

Indeed I do. That was John WImbush, the senior partner of the territory's most prestigious law firm, Deacons. If I recall correctly, he was caught up in the extensive Carrian scandal and was due to testify that day before the ICAC. When he didn't turn up, he was eventually found at the bottom of his swimming pool. I believe his neck was tied to the grille but the manner is not important. The fact that he was fully dressed in his immaculate 3-piece suit with his polished black shoes placed at the side made it all even more weird and totally unlike a suicide. Yet that was the Coroner's verdict.

I actually had had drinks with the judge who was to preside over that Carrian trial, Justice Barker. We had a mutual friend in the UK who asked if I would meet with him. We met in the old Bull & Bear pub when I thought he drank rather a lot! That trial turned out to be the longest and costliest fraud trial in HK history. Barker seemed unable to follow all the arguments and finally called a mistrial after 18 months. He was savaged by the government and the legal profession for that judgement and had to leave Hong Kong in disgrace. He retired to Cyprus and died six month later when he wrapped his car around a tree!

The manner of Wimbush' death was in some ways similar to the allegations over the 1980 death of Police Sergeant John MacLennan who had discovered a great deal of information in police files about harrassment of homosexuals. He was found dead in his locked government apartment with five bullet woulds to his torso. It was alleged by his bosses that he had shot himself. At the delayed inquest, an expert witness proved it was impossible to do that by turning his particular revolver to his body and firing five times. The recoil was too pronounced. Yet the coroner ruled suicide. The public furore which resulted and lasted for months was eventually to lead to the repeal of the old colonial anti-sodomy law.

[omega]

11 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

That would appear to be nonsense, and also does not involve the government. UK was =19 out of 180 in International Corruption index 2022.

The UK is 6th/7th in the GDP rankings. That hides the the fact that its GDP is dwarfed by U.S.A, and is smaller than California's or Texas's GDP.

It was Government policy to 'accomodate' wealthy individuals, especially since 2010. A glaring example of how deep the corruption goes is exampled by the son of a billionaire ex-KGB agent being elevated to the House of Lords.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, omega said:

A glaring example of how deep the corruption goes is exampled by the son of a billionaire ex-KGB agent being elevated to the House of Lords.

we can't blame sons for their fathers sins. Can't son of serial rapist become cancer cure discoverer?

[omega]

35 minutes ago, vinapu said:

we can't blame sons for their fathers sins. Can't son of serial rapist become cancer cure discoverer?

I'm not judging any ones sins.

This is about power, influence and connections. Would the son have ever been considered for a life-long membership of Britains Upper House only upon his own merits?