Gay farangs living on the breadline

[Olddaddy]

10 hours ago, Mavica said:

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but my understanding is that expats residing in Thailand, no matter the visa category, are required to demonstrate economic solvency (i.e., verifiable monthly / annual income or other financial assets).  True?  If so, then the destitute expats being referred to would appear be in Thailand in violation of the law / regulations.

Unfortunately there are ways around this .

Visa agents who provide a service so you have the required 800k at the time of the application 

[PeterRS]

12 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Yes ,I often wonder how old age pensioners who don't have the government housing can afford to live in Australia on that amount (around 44k) especially in Sydney.

Agreed. Please spare a thought, though, for pensioners of the UK government. When I left the UK decades ago, I was promised a full government pension if I continued my contributions to what was then called the National Insurance Fund whilst overseas. I did so. I completed the full payment over the 30 or so years I spent abroad. And what do i discover has happened without any government department informing me? If you live overseas for 6 years or more, your pension is frozen from the time you start taking it! Anyone with a UK pension taken out since around 2009 will probably not have suffered much with inflation so low. But they will certainly be hit hard now.

5 minutes ago, musgrave said:

A payment to a visa agent will get you a visa without having the financial requirements - I agree with what you say but as one acquaintance said to me once you get the stamp in your passport you are surely here legally

I believe this is less true now. As I understand the law, agents cannot certify a pension. Only the relevant Consulate can do that. So agents usually opted for the 800,000 annual route. But with those funds having to be held in an account for a minimum of 2 months prior to application and to remain there for a minimum of 3 months thereafter, I suspect it is now more crook Immigration officials who are bribed to look the other way.

[Olddaddy]

39 minutes ago, asdsrfr said:

Felt the same thing when I visited there the first time over 20 years ago as well as more recently. I see a lot of Farangs sitting at a bar alone with a sad, blank look on their face. To be sure there are others out that seem to be enjoying themselves but I wonder what happened to those people that ended up in Pattaya seeming so sad and alone.

I know your not only talking about gay expats as such and this is both gay & straight, but despite there being a lot of boys for hire etc and gay bars there is still...... Lonilessness!!!

Paying a money boy for a hour and he is gone then the expat sit in their bedsitter watching tv or whatever., It was exciting at first then after awhile it just becomes another business transaction between you and the moneyboy 

The next day the same 

I guess if your life is the same in Sydney or Manchester then it's better to be in Thailand,rather than be in cold England 

But if you have friends ,hobbies etc wherever you come from   your going to leave all that behind  to live in a  studio in jomtien hiring money boys and sitting at beer bars staring at people going by ,you will soon tire & getting bored everyday , so careful thinking going from one life to another 

Friends & family are not around ,sure WhatsApp video but not the same ,

I guess as an expat you need a hobby , something to fulfil your days ,other than bars and money boys ,your going to tire of that , your going to have to make friends, 

unfortunately some in places like the flybird & Nirun condo can be seen early morning drinking alcohol 

boredom and Lonilessness can creep in after awhile 

[scott456]

1 hour ago, asdsrfr said:

I wonder what happened to those people that ended up in Pattaya seeming so sad and alone.

Every now and then, you hear news that another farang jumping off the apartment or hotel.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Olddaddy said:

boredom and Lonilessness can creep in after awhile 

This is very true and I have seen it more times than I care to remember. But then I have lived here more than 2 decades. As I have posted elsewhere, i never intended to move to Bangkok until retirement, even though I had purchased a condominium in 1999. With the finances of my small business in Hong Kong crashing through the floor when the effects of the Asian Economic Crisis hit Hong Kong last, I virtually had no option but to move to Bangkok and run the business from here. That actually worked far better than I expected even with almost monthly commuting and I kept busy with that till around 2017 when I finally closed it. 

For much of the time since then I have had a partner which means life is never boring. I also do some freelance work overseas. We have a small circle of close friends, two of whom I knew for decades in Hong Kong. So what with a bit of work, socialising and reasonably regular travel, I keep myself quite busy. If I had to live here on a minimum income and depend on money boys for company, I certainly would suffer from crashing boredom and loneliness. 

All I can add is that i knew Bangkok and Thailand extremely well before I decided to move here. I would always suggest that anyone even remotely thinking about moving here first come here for at least two extended visits of several months each. Get rid of the illusionary glitz and glamour of the country before considering moving to settle down here.

[Finnseventy]

Interesting topic, so how much of an income would you say you need to retire in Thailand now, excluding accommodation?

[Olddaddy]

20 minutes ago, Finnseventy said:

Interesting topic, so how much of an income would you say you need to retire in Thailand now, excluding accommodation?

Look , I met many farangs in Pattaya who were happy in 50k a month 

One man who I spoke to regularly in a bar was on the Australian pension of 44k a month and told me he still saved money 

He rented a studio in jomtien and told me he cooked all his own meals.

I didn't ask him how much rent he paid and he didn't offer ,I imagine the 10k mark???

Apparently bought most ingredients from the markets and cooked himself ,had a hotplate in his room ,he had vegetables with him when I was talking to him and doesn't buy at supermarket,he was complaining Foodland at jomtien were robbers so never shops there

he filled his day with Netflix he told me ,mind you he was in his early 70's .

Not sure the cost of Netflix in Thailand but I did notice him use the bars wifi so maybe he just buys a drink to use the wifi 😄

He hadn't been to a Go Go bar in years because of prices 

He seemed to frequent the same bars so may have got a discount perhaps,he seemed to go home at around 8pm to

He told me over the course of a few meetings he bought used shoes from the bukhao market for 100 baht and t shirts 40 b and they looked good too I must say 

He goes to the sunday markets up on some busy road Thappraya?

Buys all his food from some markets ,he told me there was some French bread shop up near the traffic lights in jomtien that sold 2 bread in the evening for one price ,and he buys chicken and rice for 40 baht so anyway obviously he knows how to survive 

I guess he has the requirements of 800k in the bank 

So he said to me he spends less than 44k a month 

So that's his life I guess ,living in a studio room and it may suit him , he looked happyhe says he sits on the small balcony every morning with his coffee 

But me , I probably would get bored during the day ,wake up in the morning go to the gym ,then what ,?

Watch Netflix like he does ?

Whether that is a life for all of us I don't know ,I guess it's better than living in Australia or the UK though 

 

[PeterRS]

53 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Whether that is a life for all of us I don't know ,I guess it's better than living in Australia or the UK though 

I think perhaps we have a tendency to forget that some will have retired here in the late 1990s/early 2000s - maybe with a nest egg pre-full retirement and the start of a pension. And the Thailand they then knew and loved has changed dramatically during the intervening years. It's not just the bars - although the changes there have been radical. The country has been through major political and inflationary changes. For what I expect is a good few, it is no longer the same country. 

I have written some time ago about two English expats who moved in to the apartment next to me around 2002. Neither had more than a small state pension but one had been left a considerable amount of money in his mother's will. So they decided to retire to Asia, a continent they hardly knew. At first they fancied Singapore as they had been there before. Once their one year rental was up, they knew the city state was far too expensive for them. So they moved into a studio flat off Saladaeng in the hope of finding somewhere suitable in Bangkok. Eventually they did. My building has several apartment sizes. For whatever reason, they purchased by far the largest at over 200 sq. meters with 3 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, kitchen and huge living room - for what I believe was then around 7 million baht.

They lived quite frugally, hardly ever travelled, cooked their own meals. One really enjoyed nightly visits to Telephone Bar, but only for a drink and to chat to expat friends. The other would troll around Silom Complex hoping to meet up with guys from time to time.

But like many, after the financial crisis of 2008, their nest egg had reduced more than expected. At that time they should have seen the writing on the wall. If they did, they just decided to do nothing about it. By around 2012, though, they realised they had to sell the apartment. But such a big space in a quiet residential district quite far from public transport is too large for most Thais. Even with a number of Embassies and Consulates nearby, it is also too big for their staff. Thus the apartment remained unsold for 3 years. When they did manage to sell it, instead of the 13 million they wanted, they let it go for 9.3 million. It went to a middle-aged expat. After a year he decided he did not like it much and put it on the market. Unlike the two previous owners, he gave it to Thai rather than expat agents to sell. Pretty soon he got 16 million for it! 

Those property woes aside, the two expats idiotically moved into another large rented flat, still not far from Telephone. Soon they were in serious financial trouble. By 2019 I expect they bribed agents to come up with the 1.6 million they needed for annual visa renewals. Then something went seriously wrong. Exactly what, I never found out. But within 3 months of getting those renewals, they were unable to pay their rent. Soon they were borrowing money from anyone who would lend them anything. Next it was begging for money for food. Over the next 6 months from roughly November until the next visa renewal in May, the landlord cut off all water and electricity. When the visas could not be renewed, it took Immigration just a few days to locate them, put them into custody and then deport them. Since neither had any form of accommodation in the UK, I hate to think what happened to them. Both were in their mid-80s.

A cautionary tale, to be sure. But it illustrates how some visa dodgers can now be quickly located.  

[kokopelli3]

5 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Unfortunately there are ways around this .

Visa agents who provide a service so you have the required 800k at the time of the application 

I would say, fortunately there are ways around this!  Just because someone does not have or wish to deposit 800,000 in an account does not mean they are destitute. The 800,000/annual is about equivalent to the monthly 65,000 required for a retirement extension. At one time it was possible to get a certificate from your Embassy showing that your monthly income was 65K or more  and no problem. Then many Embassies would no longer certify that even though their citizens met the requirement. (Some Embassies still do this certification). The  visa agents now provided a service to those who do not have or do not wish to deposit 800,000 in an account. Citizen still can opt for the 65 K monthly deposits but that can be tricky at times so easier to use an agent.

 

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

 

But me , I probably would get bored during the day ,wake up in the morning go to the gym ,then what ,?

Watch Netflix like he does ?

Whether that is a life for all of us I don't know ,I guess it's better than living in Australia or the UK though 

 

as I said already, by moving there permanently one deprives himself one of great pleasures of live - annual trip to Thailand

[PeterRS]

55 minutes ago, kokopelli3 said:

The  visa agents now provided a service to those who do not have or do not wish to deposit 800,000 in an account. 

I really wonder how true this now is. Until about 4 years ago, the 800,000 minimum had to be in the bank account for 3 months. Immigration demanded a copy of the bankbook updated on the date of application to check this. (All major banks have ATM machines in the basement at the immigration Department for this purpose). I can't imagine visa agents would be prepared to cough up 800,000 for 3 whole months. If I am correct, then it must have been crook Immigration officers who turned a blind eye to this mandatory requirement in return for a substantial brown envelope.

But the situation now is even more of a problem for those taking the 800,000 route. I made a slight error in an earlier post. I believe now the requirement is that 800,000 must be in the bankbook for 2 complete months prior to the date of appication PLUS 3 months following that date. Thereafter the amount goes down to a mandatory 400,000 for 7 months. In the first year, a retiree can obviously get away without those 3 additional months. But if another year is required, the total of 5 months is essential. Again I cannot see agents lending retirees that amount of cash for such a long period, but perhaps I am wrong.

I think the big concern for all existing retirees is that the amounts of 65,000 monthly/ 800,000 annually have been in place for many years. Given that Thailand Elite is raising its fees by at least 50% and some senior Immigration officers have been calliing for higher payments from retirees, how likely is it that these amounts will continue to remain at these levels? The outrage and anger shown by existing Elite members when told existing benefits would be unilaterally withdrawn did result in the Elite organisation facing an embarrassing climb down. As one who took the 800,000 route prior to becoming an Elite basic member 3 years ago, I think I might now be concerned. No amount of retiree outrage will change a future government decision if that raises annual retiree payments, of that I am 99% sure.

 

[Keithambrose]

This also highlights the appalling level of UK pensions. Like a lot of members here, I worked in the UK all my life, good job, and paid literally millions in Insurance contributions. I was happy, just about, to pay these, but my state pension after all that is £791pm, even after the recent inflation rise. Around THB 34,000. 

[melbunz]

The current single pension in Australia is $1032 per fortnight.  You can own your own home and have $200,00 in savings or investments here and still get the full pension.  There is a rental supplement available for those not owning a home. There are discounts for most things for pension card holders, including transport, medical treatment at hospitals, bulk billing general practitioners (doctors) electricity and even council rates. 

You can continue to claim the pension if you move to Thailand , but forgo all of the other benefits. If you rent out your property in Australia whilst overseas then that income affects your eligibility for a full pension. Profits fro the sale of your principal place of residence are tax exempt, but capital gains tax applies when you are renting the house out  on any profit that you make. 

The married pension (even for gay couples) is somewhat less the double the single rate. Hence the reluctance of older gay  couples in Australia to marry.

Two sharing an owned property in Australia can live a decent existence and save money.  The tax planning in the years prior to full retirement is crucial  .

 

[scott456]

1 hour ago, Keithambrose said:

This also highlights the appalling level of UK pensions. Like a lot of members here, I worked in the UK all my life, good job, and paid literally millions in Insurance contributions. I was happy, just about, to pay these, but my state pension after all that is £791pm, even after the recent inflation rise. Around THB 34,000. 

Nobody can live on that kind of pension by itself, without other means of income or savings.

[vinapu]

16 minutes ago, scott456 said:

Nobody can live on that kind of pension by itself, without other means of income or savings.

government pensions are not meant to provide for living , are meant to prevent dying from hunger

[Mavica]

The blush on the rose of being in paradise isn't long lasting for many expats, no matter the country - particularly if the expat hasn't prepared himself for the cultural and language differences - and if financial insecurity circles overhead.  One can only spend so much time in a bar offing MB / garotos, cruising public spaces, surfing social media / sex sites.  There's more to life. 😁  And if the expat doesn't have a partner or a steady, loneliness and depression can and will set-in. 

[scott456]

1 hour ago, Mavica said:

The blush on the rose of being in paradise isn't long lasting for many expats, no matter the country - particularly if the expat hasn't prepared himself for the cultural and language differences - and if financial insecurity circles overhead.  One can only spend so much time in a bar offing MB / garotos, cruising public spaces, surfing social media / sex sites.  There's more to life. 😁  And if the expat doesn't have a partner or a steady, loneliness and depression can and will set-in. 

10 years ago, I decided, for me,  Thailand is a place to visit and to have fun, not a place to live.

[forky123]

On 8/20/2023 at 1:45 PM, scott456 said:

Then why did they move to Thailand when they could not afford to live in Thailand?

2005 - 73 baht/£

2020 - 38 baht/£    (currently 45 baht/£)

A £1k/month pension worth 73k baht in 2005 worth 45k baht today and that doesn't even consider inflation, etc.

 

[Patanawet]

4 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

t my state pension after all that is £791pm, even after the recent inflation rise. Around THB 34,000. 

UK pensions, when paid in Thailand, are locked at the rate when you retired.
They do not rise when the pension rates in UK rise.

[macaroni21]

14 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

as an expat you need a hobby , something to fulfil your days ,other than bars and money boys ,your going to tire of that , your going to have to make friends

7 hours ago, vinapu said:

 

 

 

7 hours ago, vinapu said:

as I said already, by moving there permanently one deprives himself one of great pleasures of live - annual trip to Thailand

 

2 hours ago, scott456 said:

10 years ago, I decided, for me,  Thailand is a place to visit and to have fun, not a place to live.

My feelings exactly. Having made as many visits as I have I think I know Thailand is not the place (for me) for longer than a few weeks. It's great when one's focus is a sexcapade. Not a place for settling down and dealing with cultural differences, language and bureaucracy. As Olddaddy pointed out, one will need something else to do besides boys.

I like the thrill of looking forward to a visit and arriving. Staying will not give me the same thrill. 

[Boy69]

Thailand I knew first 20 years ago could be an option for retirement you could do monthly visa run for years easily,  no restrictions on entertainment venues at all and everything was ridiculously cheap .nowadays everything changed completely lots of beurocracy,  capricious government decisions, many restrictions on entertainment venues , restricted immigration policy and Thailand is not cheap as it used to be.in these conditions it's not a retirement option for me.

[gayinpattaya]

I honestly don't know what these old folk spend their money on? 
Rent? 10k? Ok... about right. 
Food? well, 50b for a quick meal. 100b for a nice one. Do that each day is 4500 a month. 
Bills? 1500 a month if your not living in a freezer.
Let's round that up to 17000. 
Clothes, Lazada, home supplies, clothing, 3000? 

So? 20k....
If you want to eat out at a western restaurant every night, you are screwed. But when in Rome.....
Expat life can be very reasonable. I admit I spend a lot more, but I could live on 30-35k if I needed, and still have boys. 
As said before, boys are cheaper when you are a known expat. They contact you! 


 

[fedssocr]

Loneliness is a problem all over the world these days for people of all ages. But certainly culture and language issues exacerbate the isolation.

[Olddaddy]

Yes , sometimes I tend to get the impression that farangs think by somehow moving to Thailand will solve all their problems being lonely.

Some move for a boyfriend only to fall out with them later , then the boredom of hiring money boys just becomes a business transaction and not exciting anymore as you negotiate prices " how much you pay me "  becomes mundane 

 

[Olddaddy]

7 hours ago, gayinpattaya said:

I honestly don't know what these old folk spend their money on? 
Rent? 10k? Ok... about right. 
Food? well, 50b for a quick meal. 100b for a nice one. Do that each day is 4500 a month. 
Bills? 1500 a month if your not living in a freezer.
Let's round that up to 17000. 
Clothes, Lazada, home supplies, clothing, 3000? 

So? 20k....
If you want to eat out at a western restaurant every night, you are screwed. But when in Rome.....
Expat life can be very reasonable. I admit I spend a lot more, but I could live on 30-35k if I needed, and still have boys. 
As said before, boys are cheaper when you are a known expat. They contact you! 


 

I guess my food bill would be more than 150b a day ! 😄

I did eat at SINT cafe a few mornings , and Dolce Vita but yes eating farang food would go over your budget if you have to scrimp by.

I would have to have Air Con though , wouldn't be able to live in a fan room.