Biden to sign strategic partnership deal with Vietnam

[Moses]

12 hours ago, vinapu said:

it's only because your country never came to terms with atrocities of Stalinist era. Russian 's victims were mainly other Russians

Internal affairs. Like concentration camps in US for US citizens. 

 

 

[Mavica]

2 minutes ago, Moses said:

Internal affairs. Like concentration camps in US for US citizens. 

 

 

Yes, a shameful chapter in our, USA, history.  For sure.

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, Moses said:

Internal affairs. Like concentration camps in US for US citizens. 

 

try to be even handed  and post some pictures of Gulag camps somewhere in Magadan , Kolyma or Chukotka .

While American camps for Japanese were shame , at least prisoners eventually  came out alive which can't be said for many Gulag prisoners.

[Tomtravel]

Why go back in time, we have fresh attrocities of Russia. Here is a Butcha massacre memorial.

The occupants of Bucha, located near the city of Kiev, belonged to the 64th Independent Motorized Brigade of the Russian army, under the command of Colonel Azatbek Omurbekov, a war criminal who soon after was named "Hero of Russia" by the Kremlin.

461 bodies were found in Bucha. Many of the bodies bore signs of violent death and torture.

[PeterRS]

17 hours ago, vinapu said:

it's only because your country never came to terms with atrocities of Stalinist era. Russian 's victims were mainly other Russians

The same way that most of the Chinese leadership never acknowledged the atrocities Mao inflicted on China with 30 million or so Chinese dying as a result of his various campaigns - including Let A Hundred Flowers Bloom, The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Yet it is estimated that less than a milion died during Stalin's purges. Even adding those who died of hunger and the estimate is little more than 5 million. Granted, two blacks don't make a whilte. But it's not unreasonable to make comparisons. 

I have been to Russia six times - 3 during the Soviet era and 3 much more recently in 2011 and 2013. Moscow and St. Petersburg in the 1980s were basically drab with large numbers on the streets trying to sell their household goods to get some cash. One group of youths even offered to buy the jeans I was wearing. My last three visits were like chalk and cheese. Both cities were fascinating, lively and with some stunning guys. At a Conference in Moscow, along with three fellow delegates (all gay!) we went one evening to the bar at the top of the Swissotel with its stunning views of Moscow. Equally stunning were the waiters and the boys manning the bar. Our waiter told us that all his colleagues were Russians but the barmen were Czech. Every one would have been extremely beddable!

In St. Petersburg in 2013 I was with a dear friend from London. One day we ventured to the gorgeous Catherine Palace. The subway passes a Technical College. Once again most of the young guys looked extremely attractive. I thought one was smiling at me (wishful thinking no doubt!) but my friend is a lady and so my smile back was little more than weak!

But when we talk about Russia and atrocities, we should never forget that without Russia the outcome of WWII might have been very different. We should also never forget that 27 million Russians died in that war, compared to little more than 400,000 each Americans and British. We tend today to think only of the 6 million Jews massacred by Hitler. Russia's contribution was vital to the allies winning that war. 

[Tomtravel]

And we should also not forget that when Russia pushed Germans out from the occupied territories, they reinstated their own occupation in the “Eastern Block”. The narrative of liberators dont work 100% for lets say Poland, who were horribly treated by Soviets, then nazis and then again Soviets. UK, USA just accepted for various reasons that these countries are now under Soviets. Unfortunately the same thinking seems to linger in West, when we see how slowly weapons are delivered to Ukraine to fight the Russians.

[Moses]

5 hours ago, Tomtravel said:

treated by Soviets, then nazis and then again Soviets

Why don't remind here what a lot of efforts to "terribly treat" are by hands of Ukrainian Nazi from Ukrainian Galicia SS division, veterans of which are now national heroes in Ukraine?

 

[Tomtravel]

Blame the victim! May I remind you that innocents Ukrainians are slaughtered every day. 

[Tomtravel]

I am nor aware that Ukrainian leaders are under international arrest warrant, but at least one guy (actually two) in Russia should be immediately arrested for war crimes.

Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova.

Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute). The crimes were allegedly committed in Ukrainian occupied territory at least from 24 February 2022. There are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Putin bears individual criminal responsibility for the aforementioned crimes, (i) for having committed the acts directly, jointly with others and/or through others (article 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute), and (ii) for his failure to exercise control properly over civilian and military subordinates who committed the acts, or allowed for their commission, and who were under his effective authority and control, pursuant to superior responsibility (article 28(b) of the Rome Statute).

Please report when you see him!

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

But when we talk about Russia and atrocities, we should never forget that without Russia the outcome of WWII might have been very different. We should also never forget that 27 million Russians died in that war, compared to little more than 400,000 each Americans and British. .... Russia's contribution was vital to the allies winning that war. 

while you are  right we should remember that sizable part of Russians perished were owing to way they conducted their offensives war with trying to to minimize human toll being very foreign concept. Yes it worked and eternal glory to the fallen but a lot of those deaths were not necessary. It's the same today.

Oh and I forget, there were  no such thing like WWII, it was HSMO which stands for Hitler's Special Military Operation, don't you listen to RT ?   

Third thing  is , past glories are not excuse  for today's vile adventures. And other way around which brings us to an original subject of the thread. 

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 

In St. Petersburg in 2013 I was with a dear friend from London. One day we ventured to the gorgeous Catherine Palace. The subway passes a Technical College. Once again most of the young guys looked extremely attractive.

look at old pictures, a lot of Khmer Rouge taking Phnom Penh and subsequently chasing out it's entire population were extremely attractive. That's not an argument when we talk war and peace or even War and Peace

[alvnv]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

We should also never forget that 27 million Russians died in that war, compared to little more than 400,000 each Americans and British. We tend today to think only of the 6 million Jews massacred by Hitler. Russia's contribution was vital to the allies winning that war. 

27 million were Soviets, not just Russians. It includes the nations that Russia is currently terrorizes. Per capita, the losses for some of these nations were far greater than those of Russia.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, alvnv said:

27 million were Soviets, not just Russians. It includes the nations that Russia is currently terrorizes. Per capita, the losses for some of these nations were far greater than those of Russia.

Russia lost roughly haf the total. That represented more than half of all Soviet deaths. On the basis of per head of population, Armenia, Latvia and Ukraine lost a fraction more but Belarus suffered by far the most. The other 10 Soviet states suffered considerably less than Russia. I thought Belarus was an ally of Russia. Only Ukraine is presently terrorized by Russia. Armenia has banned Russian imports and would arrest Putin if he entered the country. Latvia is a member of the EU.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, vinapu said:

look at old pictures, a lot of Khmer Rouge taking Phnom Penh and subsequently chasing out it's entire population were extremely attractive. That's not an argument when we talk war and peace or even War and Peace

You err. The Khmer Rouge taking over Phnom Penh were hardened soldiers of the Pol Pot regime. When I was in Russia in 2011 and 2013, the young men I saw were students - not soldiers.

[reader]

When all is said and done, this chart pretty much summarizes Putin's Special Military Operation:

[vinapu]

23 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

You err. The Khmer Rouge taking over Phnom Penh were hardened soldiers of the Pol Pot regime

that doesn't mean some of them weren't attractive

[Tomtravel]

The tragedy is that those handsome Russian students are now in a position where they have to (some want to) shoot off the heads of equally handsome Ukrainian guys. 
I worked and lived in 2012-13 in Kiev, visited most large cities in Ukraine including Bucha; later visited many times Moscow for work. In this life I will never visit Russia again.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, Tomtravel said:

The tragedy is that those handsome Russian students are now in a position where they have to (some want to) shoot off the heads of equally handsome Ukrainian guys. 
 

and others escaped abroad to avoid draft beautifying other countries street and subway cars in the process.

1 hour ago, Tomtravel said:

 In this life I will never visit Russia again.

don't be so sure, as tittle of this thread attests former foe may become friend and quite fast. Wait until China says that Vladivostok was Chinese fishing village  200 years ago and West won't have better friend that Russia then, NATO membership included

[Tomtravel]

Vladivostok by that time will not be Russia. I hope the empire will break into smaller pieces like USSR and then its safer for all.

[alvnv]

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

On the basis of per head of population, Armenia, Latvia and Ukraine lost a fraction more but Belarus suffered by far the most. The other 10 Soviet states suffered considerably less than Russia.

Nice going: How is it that 16.3% of Ukrainian deaths are just a “fraction more” than Russia’s 12.7%, while Lithuania’s 12.7% and Kazakh 10.7% are “considerably less”?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Armenia has banned Russian imports and would arrest Putin if he entered the country.

I would love to see Armenia try and arrest Putin! This is just a rhetoric from populist Armenian politicians annoyed at Russia’s unwillingness to enact the Article 4 of the CSTO (of which Armenia is a founding member) and stop Azerbaijan’s actions in Artsakh or Nagorno-Karabakh. It’s like listening to Russian politicians blackmailing the World with threats of nuclear winter.

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Only Ukraine is presently terrorized by Russia.

Meanwhile, Russian “Peacekeepers” are in all the former Soviet States of Transcaucasia and the majority of Central Asia, terrorizing local population.

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Latvia is a member of the EU.

So are Lithuania and Estonia. So is Finland. Yet they decided to forgo their neutrality and join the NATO. The NATO continues to intercept air incursions into the airspace of the Baltic States, where locals feel uneasy next to such irreverent a neighbor.

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I thought Belarus was an ally of Russia.

So is Armenia - not in the Ukrainian war, but everywhere else. Up until Russia turned its back on them in their conflict with Azerbaijan, Armenia was probably the most loyal ally of Russia; more so than Belarus. Furthermore, Lukashenko is Putin’s ally - that does not mean that all Belorussians feel the same way.

10 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Russia lost roughly haf the total.

Russia is made of many different ethnicities, quite a few of them have completely lost their ethnic identification since all names were “Russified” many generations ago. However, those who still identify themselves as ethnic minority within Russia claim that the death toll from much of the Russian wars (past and present) have been disproportionally affecting poorer ethnic communities.

[PeterRS]

43 minutes ago, alvnv said:

Russia is made of many different ethnicities, quite a few of them have completely lost their ethnic identification since all names were “Russified” many generations ago. However, those who still identify themselves as ethnic minority within Russia claim that the death toll from much of the Russian wars (past and present) have been disproportionally affecting poorer ethnic communities.

Odd argument. And what of America? How many different ethnicities? How about the UK which not only has ethnic Scots, Welsh, Irish and perhaps some English, although there is Viking and French blood throughout the UK. 

[PeterRS]

10 hours ago, Tomtravel said:

I worked and lived in 2012-13 in Kiev, visited most large cities in Ukraine including Bucha; later visited many times Moscow for work. In this life I will never visit Russia again.

I can fully understand your reasoning. Yet sometimes it is too easy to place blame on a people rather than a regime. I abhor what Russia is doing - and has done in other places like Chechnya - and I loathe dictators like Putin and their regimes. But that does not mean I use a broad brush and also loathe Russians, Chinese, Iranians and others living under similar regimes. I have met very few Russians, but spent two weeks travelling in Iran in 2018 when I met many Iranians. I found all extremely friendly, many very cultured and all utterly loathed the regime they had to live under. I have lost count of the number of times I have been to China over 4 decades visiting and making friends with people from Harbin in the far north east to Zhuhai in the far south next to Macao. The older Chinese tell tales from their grandparents of the disasters of the 20th century and compare these with the relative wealth of life today. They tolerate the regime that has radically improved their lives, but few actually like it.

[Tomtravel]

I think you underestimate the amount of reconciliation, war compensation, war tribunals, re-education, de-putinization, sanctions which will remain in place, etc. You think we are “back in business as normal” in 3-5 years? Will not happen and should not happen.

[floridarob]

Wonder when Biden will try to have relations with Cuba like Obama started to do ....and then  Trump shut everything down to stay in Putin's good graces.

[Tomtravel]

Trump and Russia is an interesting case. The fact is that he required that Germany would increase military expenditure, close down the gas pipeline which was feeding the monster and to show leadership in foreign and security policy in Europe. Germany strugles in all 3 areas for various, mostly internal reasons. Russia is a badly managed case for US, who has now to save the Europeans, who as a group should be able to deal with Russia. For US only China is appropriate sizeable counterpart to deal with.