Thailand pushes for expansion of gay tourism

[reader]

From Pattaya Mail

By Barry Kenyon

As Thailand struggles post-covid to recover its huge international tourist profile, a renewed effort is underway to attract much more of the US$200 billion annual expenditure by gay visitors worldwide. As the tourist director of Chiang Mai explained recently to the New York Times, “We live in a country that is open and pretty liberal – I can’t think of a market that we wouldn’t welcome.” That’s quite a claim.

TAT (Tourism Authority of Thailand) of late has been sponsoring gay pride events in several Thai cities, not only in Bangkok, and has now expanded its roadshow marketing to gay Muslims in several countries by promoting halal food and spas and publicizing the availability of prayer rooms in public facilities, as well as more quietly including the gay rainbow flag in marketing campaigns. Homosexuality is suppressed in several other south east Asian countries with Muslim majority populations.

Another TAT initiative is to attract wealthy medical tourists. Already, Bangkok’s Bumrungrad International Hospital, a leading provider, has opened a Pride clinic that offers medical and wellness services to the gay international market, including specialist hormone, cosmetic and gender-affirming treatment. As regards gender reassignment, the hospital requires evidence of age (usually at least 20 years, 12 months’ estrogen use, already living “new” lifestyle etc) with costs 420,000 baht up.

In Japan and elsewhere, TAT is promoting gay romance Thai dramas such as “2gether” and “I Promised You The Moon” which are freely available on the internet and proving to be very popular, even with non-gay audiences. They are mostly puppy-love stories which rarely cover adult relationship problems or the everyday issues facing gay men such as financial and employment difficulties. The boys-love dramas seek to capitalize on gay-related soft power with exports now approaching 3 billion baht per year through international business partnerships.

Critics say that TAT’S policy is purely to make money, choosing to ignore the fact that Thailand is well short of being a gay paradise, especially for lesbians who are mostly overlooked in marketing campaigns. Although tourist-orientated cities have a multiplicity of social media contact sites and male-orientated gay bars and clubs – including cabaret shows which employ a sizeable proportion of the transgender community – legal protection is low. In spite of mega-publicity, gay marriage and adoption are still illegal, whilst transgenders can change their names by law but not their genders. Discrimination against gays in employment is largely unprotected by a legal framework. “But,” says the TAT officer, “it’s a wonderful place for a holiday.” Especially for men.

 

[macaroni21]

This raises a good question:  What do lesbians want when they travel?

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, macaroni21 said:

This raises a good question:  What do lesbians want when they travel?

Other girls I guess. Soi 6 in Pattaya would be good place to start

[Ruthrieston]

From what I see in Pattaya the Tom Boy clubs have all closed down. There used to be several on Third Road in Pattaya, but not one to be seen now. The anti gay prejudice is still strong in the Hi So set of Thai society and I have met the sons of rich families who have been forced to marry a woman or be thrown out of the family and cut off financially. 

[PeterRS]

15 hours ago, reader said:

From Pattaya Mail

As the tourist director of Chiang Mai explained recently to the New York Times, “We live in a country that is open and pretty liberal – I can’t think of a market that we wouldn’t welcome.” That’s quite a claim.

Given that Chiang Mai did not have a Pride Parade for almost ten years, the tourist director's comments are something of a joke! He clearly forgets that the 2009 Pride Parade had to be called off due to harrassment from local protest groups and near violence from hundreds of thugs wearing red shirts as the police stood by watching and doing nothing. Through megaphones, one group of citizens shouted that the "Parades destroy our beautiful culture." Parades restarted in 2019 but I am told on a relatively small scale. 

Add to that general feeling of local hostility towards the LGBT community, many dozens of gay venues have closed in recent years that virtually all Chiang Mai has to offer is local culture. That certainly is worth exploring and enjoying, but gay tourists want something to do in the evenings. Having visited the bars now almost all located on the street across from Le Meridien, I cannot believe most tourists would enjoy them. Hence my view that the local tourist director is talking through a hole in his head.

15 hours ago, reader said:

Another TAT initiative is to attract wealthy medical tourists

The emphasis here is clearly in "wealthy". I was an occasional patient at Bumrungrad off and on for about 20 years. During that time I have seen what the concentration on medical tourism has done. Bumrungrad can now give you a feeling more like a hospital might be in Saudi Arabia given the influx of medical tourists from Middle Eastern countries. Call me racist but i still feel something is wrong when you see a couple with the woman wearing a full black burka covering even her face and the husband in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt.

There is no doubt it is an excellent hospital but prices have risen very dramatically, especially in recent years. BNH (Bangkok Nursing Home) on Soi Convent is another excellent hospital and I find its prices almost half those at Bumrungrad. But even these cannot match those in the best hospitals in India which I believe are around half for equally fine facilities and equally trained doctors. Almost all East Asian countries are after the medical tourism dollar. Thailand may win out on reputation and the enjoyment of recovery from a procedure at a nice beach resort. But have your Platinum card at the ready!

[gerefan]

5 hours ago, Ruthrieston said:

From what I see in Pattaya the Tom Boy clubs have all closed down. There used to be several on Third Road in Pattaya, but not one to be seen now. . 

Are you sure they have ALL closed?  4 Step Tomboy bar Facebook site is up and running.

We were in Wisper Tomboy Club just off Third Road on Saturday and it was busy. You have to be there quite late before it fills. 

[Shonen]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:33 PM, PeterRS said:

Given that Chiang Mai did not have a Pride Parade for almost ten years, the tourist director's comments are something of a joke! He clearly forgets that the 2009 Pride Parade had to be called off due to harrassment from local protest groups and near violence from hundreds of thugs wearing red shirts as the police stood by watching and doing nothing. Through megaphones, one group of citizens shouted that the "Parades destroy our beautiful culture." Parades restarted in 2019 but I am told on a relatively small scale. 

Add to that general feeling of local hostility towards the LGBT community, many dozens of gay venues have closed in recent years that virtually all Chiang Mai has to offer is local culture. That certainly is worth exploring and enjoying, but gay tourists want something to do in the evenings. Having visited the bars now almost all located on the street across from Le Meridien, I cannot believe most tourists would enjoy them. Hence my view that the local tourist director is talking through a hole in his head.

The emphasis here is clearly in "wealthy". I was an occasional patient at Bumrungrad off and on for about 20 years. During that time I have seen what the concentration on medical tourism has done. Bumrungrad can now give you a feeling more like a hospital might be in Saudi Arabia given the influx of medical tourists from Middle Eastern countries. Call me racist but i still feel something is wrong when you see a couple with the woman wearing a full black burka covering even her face and the husband in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt.

There is no doubt it is an excellent hospital but prices have risen very dramatically, especially in recent years. BNH (Bangkok Nursing Home) on Soi Convent is another excellent hospital and I find its prices almost half those at Bumrungrad. But even these cannot match those in the best hospitals in India which I believe are around half for equally fine facilities and equally trained doctors. Almost all East Asian countries are after the medical tourism dollar. Thailand may win out on reputation and the enjoyment of recovery from a procedure at a nice beach resort. But have your Platinum card at the ready!

So it sounds like the red shirts are anti gay. More so than the yellows? 

[Boy69]

17 minutes ago, Shonen said:

So it sounds like the red shirts are anti gay. More so than the yellows? 

I don't think it's related to politics,  Chiang Mai is very conservative city .

[reader]

 About 18 or so years ago during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration, police raided the Babylon Sauna at the height of its popularity. It wasn't exactly done in secret because TV news vans and cameras lined Nantha rd. and the event received wide publicity. I happened to be in bkk at the time but luckily missed being there on that evening. It pleased many of Thaksin's supporters, particularly those from his hometown in Chiang Mai. Although Babs was soon back in business, the raid had sent a political message: be careful what you hope for.

[thaiophilus]

3 hours ago, Boy69 said:

I don't think it's related to politics,  Chiang Mai is very conservative city .

I'd say opportunistically political - left or right,  red or yellow, you can demonstrate your "patriotism" and attract the popular vote by putting on up a big rally to oppose some minority you can label as "un-Thai".

[Londoner]

I've known more than a few mbs and ex-mbs over the years and  they were  supportive of the Red Shirts. Many, of course, were from Isaan, the heartlands of the movement. And economically and socially they were from working-class backgrounds. 

[PeterRS]

On 8/12/2023 at 5:58 PM, reader said:

About 18 or so years ago during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration, police raided the Babylon Sauna at the height of its popularity. It wasn't exactly done in secret because TV news vans and cameras lined Nantha rd. and the event received wide publicity. I happened to be in bkk at the time but luckily missed being there on that evening. It pleased many of Thaksin's supporters, particularly those from his hometown in Chiang Mai. Although Babs was soon back in business, the raid had sent a political message: be careful what you hope for.

I was living in Bangkok when this raid occurred. It was during the Interior Minister Purachai's Social Order Campaign and one of many that took place in gay venues. What gave the Babylon one so much publicity is that Purachai himself led the raid. At one point in full view of the cameras, he picked up a used condom. He then said something along the lines, "You see. Illegal prostitution takes place here." No one in the Health Ministry thought to go public by adding it was an excellent thing that condoms were actually being used! 207 patrons and staff were detained that evening and subjected to urine tests. 20 tourists tested positive for drugs.

As @reader points out, Purachai's campaigns were particularly popular in the country. He himself was one of the very few politicians who was  incorruptible.  A devout Buddhist, he named his children after Buddhist precepts. (His boss, Thaksin, on the other hand, named his children after the word for "gold"!) Allegedly Purachai was shocked by what he found on his nighttime raids. He looked back fondly just a couple of decades when Thai children obeyed their parents and even holding hands in public was rare. He blamed the influx of western ideas for the rise in glamorous night clubs, drug use and prostitution. When criticised by the western media, he lashed out and termed his crusade a "social evils" campaign. Even the much esteemed General Manager of the Oriental Hotel, Kurt Wachtveitl, criticised Purachai's campaign and the effect he believed it would have on tourism.

Ironically, as one lawyer and senator Thongbai Thongbao was quoted as telling the Los Angeles Times, "He has popular support, but no one in government is on his side!" And so we have this single individual for the laws which thereafter changed gay nightlife.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jul-07-adfg-moral7-story.html

[hojacat]

On 8/13/2023 at 6:44 PM, PeterRS said:

I was living in Bangkok when this raid occurred. It was during the Interior Minister Purachai's Social Order Campaign and one of many that took place in gay venues. What gave the Babylon one so much publicity is that Purachai himself led the raid. At one point in full view of the cameras, he picked up a used condom. He then said something along the lines, "You see. Illegal prostitution takes place here." No one in the Health Ministry thought to go public by adding it was an excellent thing that condoms were actually being used! 207 patrons and staff were detained that evening and subjected to urine tests. 20 tourists tested positive for drugs.

As @reader points out, Purachai's campaigns were particularly popular in the country. He himself was one of the very few politicians who was  incorruptible.  A devout Buddhist, he named his children after Buddhist precepts. (His boss, Thaksin, on the other hand, named his children after the word for "gold"!) Allegedly Purachai was shocked by what he found on his nighttime raids. He looked back fondly just a couple of decades when Thai children obeyed their parents and even holding hands in public was rare. He blamed the influx of western ideas for the rise in glamorous night clubs, drug use and prostitution. When criticised by the western media, he lashed out and termed his crusade a "social evils" campaign. Even the much esteemed General Manager of the Oriental Hotel, Kurt Wachtveitl, criticised Purachai's campaign and the effect he believed it would have on tourism.

Ironically, as one lawyer and senator Thongbai Thongbao was quoted as telling the Los Angeles Times, "He has popular support, but no one in government is on his side!" And so we have this single individual for the laws which thereafter changed gay nightlife.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jul-07-adfg-moral7-story.html

Wasn't a police raid what caused the closure of the gay sauna called "Obelisks" in Bangkok, though I think it happened a few years earlier than the raid Of Babylon you're talking about?

I just remember reading about it in a book called "The Rice Queen Diaries" by this gay Canadian author that worked 3 years in BKK for The Nation. He was there the night of the raid and describes it in one of the chapter of his book. Seems like "Obelisks" was one of the highest-ranked gay saunas of the time, probably on par or even higher than Babylon. wonder what was the reason that Babylon survived the raid and Obelisks didn't? Was it the perseverance of its owner, his political connections or just that the advent of the internet had already transformed Babylon into an institution for gay tourists?

Because of my age I don't remember hearing or reading about any of this events. The only police raid in Bangkok of a gay venue that I know is of G.O.D, which was closed because of the high activity of drug use happening in there.

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, hojacat said:

Wasn't a police raid what caused the closure of the gay sauna called "Obelisks" in Bangkok, though I think it happened a few years earlier than the raid Of Babylon you're talking about?

Yes, it was a police raid that closed Obelisks for good and I think it was probably the first of Purachai's Social Order casualties. It was one of the first batch of gay saunas but located near Thonglor which made it a longish tuk tuk ride in those pre-Skytrain frightful traffic days. I did visit a few times in the late 1980s. It was a tall narrow building meaning you needed good leg muscles especially to get up the 10 floors to the very nice rooftop jacuzzi. There was a tiny lift that could squeeze in about 5 guys but if you'd just missed it you could wait ages for it.

While it was more elegant than the earliest sauna I remember (Volt in a soi off Asoke in the mid-1980s), it did have a small restaurant, bar, gym and a tiny maze. But with floor areas being so small, it really was not on a par with the original Babylon. Also once Babylon opened, most tourists and farang could not be bothered going what seemed so far out when Babylon was all but on their doorstep. More than a decade later, for a while the other recently opened gay sauna Chakran on Soi Aree with its Moroccan theme, small pool and plenty of cruising areas became almost as popular as Babylon. It was certainly as beautifully laid out and very popular with the younger Thai crowd. After years of visiting the original Babylon, I never really took to the new larger version further down the soi. I then preferred Chakran which happily also welcomed foreigners. Sadly within a few years it had begun to change to being much more Thai-for-Thai/Asian.

The original Babylon opened in 1988 in the building on the corner of Sathorn Soi 1/Soi Nantha-Mozart. Perhaps ironically much of that building is now occupied by the long-time French restaurant Le Bouchon which for decades was located on Patpong Soi 2 where many of the gay go-go bars can now be found! !t was founded by the son of a very rich family who wanted somewhere for professional gay Thais to relax away from the pressures of life for gay men in Bangkok at the time. The lobby had full-length glass cases filled with Thai antiques. The coffee shop had a guitarist or soft live music at the week-ends. All the staff seemed to me gorgeously handsome. Off the coffee shop was a massage room. Oh, the number of great times I had with Khun Gung who always seemed to be on duty there!

I particularly enjoyed sitting having drinks at its rooftop bar watching so many cute guys pass back and forth in their towels from the showers at the end. It very quickly became so popular that on Friday and Saurday evenings there were always queues waiting to get in. For a few years, almost all were Thai. When word eventually got out, more farang started to discover its pleasures.

As to your question about why Obelisks died yet the larger Babylon further down the soi remained open. Surely that had to be fat envelopes for the BIB! The Babylon owner had tons of cash. I doubt if Babylon ever made much if any profit, but he ran it more as a service to the gay community.

[hojacat]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Yes, it was a police raid that closed Obelisks for good and I think it was probably the first of Purachai's Social Order casualties. It was one of the first batch of gay saunas but located near Thonglor which made it a longish tuk tuk ride in those pre-Skytrain frightful traffic days. I did visit a few times in the late 1980s. It was a tall narrow building meaning you needed good leg muscles especially to get up the 10 floors to the very nice rooftop jacuzzi. There was a tiny lift that could squeeze in about 5 guys but if you'd just missed it you could wait ages for it.

While it was more elegant than the earliest sauna I remember (Volt in a soi off Asoke in the mid-1980s), it did have a small restaurant, bar, gym and a tiny maze. But with floor areas being so small, it really was not on a par with the original Babylon. Also once Babylon opened, most tourists and farang could not be bothered going what seemed so far out when Babylon was all but on their doorstep. More than a decade later, for a while the other recently opened gay sauna Chakran on Soi Aree with its Moroccan theme, small pool and plenty of cruising areas became almost as popular as Babylon. It was certainly as beautifully laid out and very popular with the younger Thai crowd. After years of visiting the original Babylon, I never really took to the new larger version further down the soi. I then preferred Chakran which happily also welcomed foreigners. Sadly within a few years it had begun to change to being much more Thai-for-Thai/Asian.

The original Babylon opened in 1988 in the building on the corner of Sathorn Soi 1/Soi Nantha-Mozart. Perhaps ironically much of that building is now occupied by the long-time French restaurant Le Bouchon which for decades was located on Patpong Soi 2 where many of the gay go-go bars can now be found! !t was founded by the son of a very rich family who wanted somewhere for professional gay Thais to relax away from the pressures of life for gay men in Bangkok at the time. The lobby had full-length glass cases filled with Thai antiques. The coffee shop had a guitarist or soft live music at the week-ends. All the staff seemed to me gorgeously handsome. Off the coffee shop was a massage room. Oh, the number of great times I had with Khun Gung who always seemed to be on duty there!

I particularly enjoyed sitting having drinks at its rooftop bar watching so many cute guys pass back and forth in their towels from the showers at the end. It very quickly became so popular that on Friday and Saurday evenings there were always queues waiting to get in. For a few years, almost all were Thai. When word eventually got out, more farang started to discover its pleasures.

As to your question about why Obelisks died yet the larger Babylon further down the soi remained open. Surely that had to be fat envelopes for the BIB! The Babylon owner had tons of cash. I doubt if Babylon ever made much if any profit, but he ran it more as a service to the gay community.

Thanks @PeterRS for this long reply. Btw, here is an article about the author I mentioned above talking about Obelisks and its closing. It's pretty much the same as what he describes in his book. It contains some of the points you talk about like Obelisks being far, Purachai's campaign etc.

Overall an interesting reading: https://dooneyscafe.com/a-spanking-for-sin-city/.

[Londoner]

I recall my only visit to Obelisks....it must have been more than two decades ago. it was the most luxurious sauna I've ever visited. However, as  patron of Babylon where I could hardly get undressed before being molested (very welcome it was, too), Obelisks seemed to me to be decidedly "sticky rice". As a relative newcomer in the city, I was  surprised. But it taught me that Babylon was sui generis when it come to falangs in BKK saunas, at least for us older guys.

[PeterRS]

17 hours ago, Londoner said:

Obelisks seemed to me to be decidedly "sticky rice"

Babylon apart, was this the norm for most of the gay saunas in Bangkok? It is certainly true of my one time favourite Chakran.

[hojacat]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:06 PM, PeterRS said:

Babylon apart, was this the norm for most of the gay saunas in Bangkok? It is certainly true of my one time favourite Chakran.

I would consider Mania as pretty farang-friendly for what is worth it. Being in Silom, there is always a good number of westerns and I always found the local guys always being pretty welcome to them. It's kinda small, though and the facilities are a bit subpar. I think it's only worth it during their event-nights.

[gayinpattaya]

The news yesterday said they are now pushing for an expansion of Muslim tourists. 
I'm sure the gays and muslims will get on like a house on fire!