Reviewing the five visa options for retirement in Thailand

[reader]

If you look back in time, the Thai elite (read the mega wealthy) continually attempt to influence enactment of laws or regulations to restrict immigration to those more like themselves and less like the hoi polloi. They always get others to do their bidding as can be seen from the above news articles.

After previous attempts generally fell flat, they've apparently decided to go the simple, more direct route: high net worth individuals. Why not, they figure, make it about one thing everyone can easily grasp: money. Prospective expats would either have it or not have it. It eliminates so much of the bureaucracy. In the process, it would convert their long-time pet peeve, Pattaya, into a playground for the wealthy instead of one for the just the horny. Look how successful attracting rich Kuwait uni students on summer vacation has worked out. What could possibly go wrong?

Cash is the common denominator that's worked so efficiently for the elite, allowing them to reverse the popular vote that favored Move Forward to form a new government. In other words, they were able to subvert the election without any legal ramifications. So much less messy than Trump's attempt to do the same on the other wide of the world.

[PeterRS]

15 hours ago, reader said:

If you look back in time, the Thai elite (read the mega wealthy) continually attempt to influence enactment of laws or regulations to restrict immigration to those more like themselves and less like the hoi polloi. They always get others to do their bidding as can be seen from the above news articles.

After previous attempts generally fell flat, they've apparently decided to go the simple, more direct route: high net worth individuals . . .

There is always a tendency when considering what a country is doing today to forget its relatively recent history. Less than 50 years ago Thailand was a low income economy. I'd hardly call it third world, but it was pretty close. In the intervening years and in little more than a generation it has risen to become an upper-middle income country. I can remember being encouraged to invest a very small amount in a Thai mutual fund in the 1980s. The returns were very impressive but then the these were boom years with the economy growing at an average rate of 7.5%.

Much of that income ended up in the hands of the elite, especially a smallish group of families  - but then is that not very much the worldwide trend with developing countries? On the other hand, according World Bank statistics, Thailand has an impressive record in poverty reduction - from 58% of the population in 1990 to just 6.8% in 2020. (And we still question why the Thai boys have largely disappeared from the Bangkok gay bars!)

We should also never forget the effect on the psyche of the elite of the Asian Economic Crisis of 1997. As the economy nose-dived, all Thais suffered, many greatly, but it was many in the upper levels of society who came off worst, relatively speaking. Former Chief Executives were even reduced to work similar to one individual who ended up going around offices selling home-made sandwiches to survive. That the crisis was entirely man-made within Thailand with an over-heated economy, a much over-valued currency, sky high interest rates to avoid currency outflows, lax government oversight and a host of dodgy financial companies is nowadays all but forgotten! With proper economic management between 1993 and 1996, the crisis could have probably been avoided - if not, its effect certainly lessened. But due to dreadful governance, the country was bankrupt, all its foreign exchange reserves wiped out. The strictures imposed by the IMF in return for loans of almost US$18 billion and the reluctance of some in government to take the necessary steps delayed recovery by some years and paved the way to Thaksin to find his way to power.

During those post 1997 years, anyone was welcome in Thailand. The country needed money - any money - and fast. I believe this was the main reason for the expat retirement scheme and welcoming all manner of toursts, even those primarily interested in sex. On the other hand, having been so severely affected, the elite in particular never wanted to see a similar sitation arise in future. That meant once the country's finances had been stabilised, changing the face of tourism. But what Thailand could not control were external factors. The SARS epidemic in 2003 had a major short-term impact on tourism. The world financial crisis of 2008 had a worse effect on much of the economy. Then the disaster of the covid years.

Every time there has been an external crisis, though, Thailand has bounced back. And at the core of its view from the top virtually since the first Thaksin government, rightly or wrongly, is that high-end tourism and the luxury market is what will ensure greater sustainability in future. Is it any surprise that all five new hotels in the massive One Bangkok development on Rama 4 will be in the luxury category? Many would assume that Bangkok already has more 5-star hotels than necessary! (Incidentally, I had drinks and snacks with a friend from Shanghai yesterday evening in one of the city's top hotels, the Sukhothai on Sathorn. Over 4 hours, the bar was totally empty apart from the two of us. And we saw virtually no guests either entering or leaving the hotel. It was more 'dead' than I have ever seen it in more than 20 years!) 

Generally though, when you look into a crystal ball, you see, as I now tend to, a country where, as @reader points out in his earlier post, cash will be king and those visiting and/or intending to retire had better have plenty of it! Other crystal balls may reveal a different scenario. After all, the next economic or covid disaster could be just around the corner. Perhaps, though, that is sufficient reason for the elite to make as much cash as they can before than happens. 

[reader]

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 (And we still question why the Thai boys have largely disappeared from the Bangkok gay bars!)before than happens. 

Agree that they are represented in far fewer numbers than a generation ago but--thankfully--can still be found in in the Silom area bars and certainly in the message shops. And for app users, the answer is at your finger tips.

[PeterRS]

As may have been obvious, I have the basic Elite 5-year visa. Although it was more expensive in the long run than continuing with the 800,000 baht retirement route, it involved far less hassle, required no cash lock up and, as I travel frequently, lots of free airport limousine transfers and special treatment once at BKK. The option to upgrade for up to 15 years during the currency of the membership for a similar amount was also very appealing.

Now that I have been through all the palaver of the disgraceful cancellation of this upgrade during the currency of a membership and not at the end of the actual membership period - something I believe no reputable service oriented company anywhere in the civilised world would tolerate, I have been robbed of my option to decide on final retirement location prior to expiry of my membership in July 2025. I have made my feelings clear in emails and in two meetings with the management. Did they give a fuck? Of course not! By withdrawing the option now and forcing existing members to pay for upgrades now, they make a ton of cash in a country where "cash is increasingly king".

Although I made my decision that Thailand would be where I wished to retire way back in 1995, since learning of the Thailand Elite latest money grab, I had started to consider if there might be other options. With a partner with excellent qualifications who is quite keen to work in Europe, I had begun to consider Portugal which, as @reader kindly pointed out in the Thailand Named Ninth-Best Retirement Destination thread, has come top of retirement polls for several years. I have been to Lisbon and Porto and enjoyed the cities a lot. For retirement I'd have to consider a town probably midway between where rents etc. would be less expensive. But the more I have thought about it, the more attractive it seems. My partner could probably end up with a decent job in Germany or Switzerland as he speaks German extremely well. He's never lived in either country but quite likes the idea, the more so if I am based relatively nearby and within easy flying distance.

Having handed in my papers for the 15 year extension this afternoon, I was informed it could be up to 3 months before the extension was granted and then another month before payment was required. So I do not have to make any decision now. It also means I have time to make another trip to Portugal in the next couple of months to look at possible locations and meet with estate agents, lawyers etc. In the past 25 years I never once considered not living in Thailand. Oddly, it feels quite liberating to be considering another option even without bars, saunas and the Asian gay environment.

[floridarob]

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I have been to Lisbon and Porto and enjoyed the cities a lot.

I've been to both places, Lisbon more. Nice to visit, wouldn't want to live there was my takeaway. I'm aware it's been on many people's places to retire list, bit don't know anyone personally that has.

I speak the language and still couldn't see myself living there..... as I recall, not a lot of English speaking locals....can't imagine you being happy there. 

Any other options in Asia possible for you?


I wrote about a Thai guy that worked on cruise ships that left to come live in Texas with me.....once he realized how exotic and popular he was outside of Thailand, he started fucking around. I told him , fly be free....I let him do his thing and let him go. Keep this in your mind.........

[KeepItReal]

2 hours ago, floridarob said:

I've been to both places, Lisbon more. Nice to visit, wouldn't want to live there was my takeaway. I'm aware it's been on many people's places to retire list, bit don't know anyone personally that has.

I speak the language and still couldn't see myself living there..... as I recall, not a lot of English speaking locals....can't imagine you being happy there. 

Any other options in Asia possible for you?


I wrote about a Thai guy that worked on cruise ships that left to come live in Texas with me.....once he realized how exotic and popular he was outside of Thailand, he started fucking around. I told him , fly be free....I let him do his thing and let him go. Keep this in your mind.........

Well, it was Texas, so I would probably also be considered exotic! 😋

[PeterRS]

9 hours ago, floridarob said:

Any other options in Asia possible for you?

Way back in the mid-1990s when I decided I should start thinking about where I might eventually wish to retire and consider purchasing a small condo, I looked more closely at several of the Asian countries. I had been in love with much of the continent since 1979 and already knew several countries extremely well. One factor was wherever I chose, it had to be within relatively easy flying time of Hong Kong where I expected to continue running my own small company for the first 2 decades of the new century. Eventually i narrowed the options down to 2 - Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok. At one moment of near madness I considered Penang. When the Asian Economic crisis hit, developers were left with large blocks of unsold ocean-facing apartments just off the road between Georgetown and the main beach area at Batu Ferringhi. These were all but being given away. But I knew I could easily end up becoming something of a beach bum and resisted the temptation. Yet KL was a city I really enjoyed then. Much less so now. Thankfully therefore I chose Bangkok which I knew extremely well.

The Asian Economic crisis took 3 years before it hit Hong Kong. When it did, it experienced its worst recession since WWII. The finances of my company crashed. I could no longer afford actually to live there and so I decided to relocate to my Bangkok apartment and just commute. (Anyone who has tried to open a small service business working internationally in Thailand is aware that the regulations are a minefield - hence I had no intention of relocating the business here). I even found I enjoyed the regular monthly commuting and so did not bother to relocate back to Hong Kong after business finally picked up after SARS in 2003/04.

The one city that I now kick myself was never on my radar was Taipei. I had been frequently in the city since the last year of marital law in 1986/87. A small gay scene had started developing by the mid-1990s but the city was very different from the one we know today. Sadly, it has also become considerably more expensive, especially in terms of real estate. I did think about a move there about 7 years ago. Now it would be too much of a financial stretch.

I may well end up just staying in Thailand. But just the thought that a complete break with a move back to Europe and the possibility of continuing to explore so many more parts of that fascinating continent has given me a bit of a buzz.

9 hours ago, floridarob said:

I've been to both places, Lisbon more. Nice to visit, wouldn't want to live there was my takeaway. I'm aware it's been on many people's places to retire list, bit don't know anyone personally that has.

I do know two people who have moved there, one a good friend from Hong Kong who had been living with a boyfriend in Auckland for 15 years before they split up. He wanted to come and live in Chiang Mai but is not yet of an age where he could get a retirement visa. So friends persuaded him to move to Portugal. He enjoys it a lot. 

[TMax]

I had considered a move to Thailand at some stage and was looking at the 20 year elite visa but after what I read about the changes that is no longer an option, retirement visa was also an option but I have read there are rumblings that the new government (if it ever forms up) could well be cracking down on that visa (no doubt a crackdown on the agents etc). I have also looked elsewhere, no real interest in Laos or Cambodia, Malaysia is a distant possibility but I have some doubts, I would love to live in Singapore but a lack of long term visas makes that a non starter and much the same for Vietnam and their lack of long term visas. That really leaves 3 options, stay home in Australia and just visit but visit more often, Thailand and risk a retirement visa or the Philippines. Visa wise the Philippines is relatively easy and has been on my radar for some time now but the infrastructure there sucks in comparison to Thailand. Health wise my choice of place to live in the Philippines is a long bus trip away from Manila (at least 5hrs depending on traffic) so would be relying on local hospitals in case of emergency and I would say private health insurance would be a must to get into the good hospitals like St Lukes in Bonifacio Global City or Makati Medical center. The thinking cap is on and visa wise I am keeping a keen eye on what's happening, also continuing to buy lotto tickets just in hope.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, TMax said:

 also continuing to buy lotto tickets just in hope.

That's the best retirement plan ever invented. I know it myself playing the same numbers from January 1990( yes !)  and still hoping. 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, TMax said:

I would love to live in Singapore but a lack of long term visas makes that a non starter and much the same for Vietnam and their lack of long term visas.

In all my dozens of visits to Singapore I have had the same thought. In my case, though, it would be expense. Assuming there is ever a way around the visa issue, no way could I afford to live there. Although it is around 5 years since my last trip, I have always found it extremely cruisy with some of the best looking guys in Asia. But there is also something about the attitude of Singaporeans in general. None that I know seem particularly happy there. Too much of the nanny state is a common complaint.

I have read many of the books on the Vietnam War and remain horrified at how that country suffered. Yet i only started visiting Vietnam a few years ago. Loved Hanoi, disliked HCMC, adored the island of Phu Quoc and had a ball in the central area of Danang, Hoi An and Hue. There used to be a long term visa and I know of someone then in Chiang Mai who had purchased a seaside home near Danang for retirement. Then the long stay visa was withdrawn. He is now back in Australia and extremely unhappy. If the visa situation changed, I would certainly consider the country.

[PeterRS]

Well! Well! Well! After Thailand Elite decided just 3 weeks ago that ordinary members with their 5 year Easy Access membership would have the right to upgrade by 15 more years for a further 500,000 baht (or 400,000 for those who had paid the increased 600,000 initial fee introduced last year) and gave members a strict deadline of 4:30pm today, there was a near riot among members. The addtional implication that the cash had to be transferred to Thailand Elite on the same date and time created more havoc as many members are on family vacations outide the country. 

Later, it was announced the payment could be delayed by around 3 months.

Now, on this the deadline day for applications, Thailand Elite has finally realised its actions gave not only ridiculously short notice, they may have been illegal. Accordingly, today within hours of the deadline an email letter has been sent from the company running the scheme, Thailand Privilege Company, admitting it had upset many members. Therefore, it has changed the prevously announced policy. Easy Access 5 year members will now not have to decide whether or not to upgrade until three months prior to the end of their current membership period. In my case, that means I can delay a decision until April 2025.

After all the shenanigans of having to transfer cash, fill in a mutitude of forms and obtain other photocopies and photos in order to meet today's deadline, this is not only a huge slap in the face to current members, it is a massive climbdown by TPC. As one contributor to the Thailand Elite Visa Members Group wrote, "Clowns!"
 

[Olddaddy]

On 8/12/2023 at 2:28 PM, TMax said:

I had considered a move to Thailand at some stage and was looking at the 20 year elite visa but after what I read about the changes that is no longer an option, retirement visa was also an option but I have read there are rumblings that the new government (if it ever forms up) could well be cracking down on that visa (no doubt a crackdown on the agents etc). I have also looked elsewhere, no real interest in Laos or Cambodia, Malaysia is a distant possibility but I have some doubts, I would love to live in Singapore but a lack of long term visas makes that a non starter and much the same for Vietnam and their lack of long term visas. That really leaves 3 options, stay home in Australia and just visit but visit more often, Thailand and risk a retirement visa or the Philippines. Visa wise the Philippines is relatively easy and has been on my radar for some time now but the infrastructure there sucks in comparison to Thailand. Health wise my choice of place to live in the Philippines is a long bus trip away from Manila (at least 5hrs depending on traffic) so would be relying on local hospitals in case of emergency and I would say private health insurance would be a must to get into the good hospitals like St Lukes in Bonifacio Global City or Makati Medical center. The thinking cap is on and visa wise I am keeping a keen eye on what's happening, also continuing to buy lotto tickets just in hope.

Yes Philippines is now my option.

I'm looking Duamegette or Davao City 

[NIrishGuy]

So me sitting here in the UK at 54 year of age and with no real plan to retire to Thailand but thinking "but maybe, some day that might happen and so why apply for an Elite NOW ( fast) and also immediately upgrade it to the 20 year option just to keep the option open".

BUT on reading this thread then also realising that the Elite visa office / Thai Government could ( and probably will) move the goalposts again at ANY time and many times over that period, with as PeterRS has already pointed out zero regard for existing holders (as they seem to be doing already here) so now thinking "so what's the point in risking that money".  and I'd just be better letting things roll and deal with things as they are a the time I'd ever think of moving there - or am I wrong ?

[PeterRS]

50 minutes ago, NIrishGuy said:

Me sitting here in the UK at 54 with no real plan to retire to Thailand but always thinking "maybe, some day and why not keep the option open' and thinking - "so maybe I should apply FAST for the 5 Year Elite option and quickly upgrade it to the 20 year option and then just let it sit so I'll have it should I ever decide I need it!".    BUT then also reading this thread and realising that the Elite visa office / Thailand Government could remove the goalposts again at ANY time ( as they seem to be doing already here) so thinking "what's the point in risking the money".  😞 

An understandable conclusion. All I might add is that i believe that having been badly burned by this climbdown, Thailand Elite will find it difficult to play around with promised privileges again. It has too many professional members including lawyers and PR people who I think had a major effect on the recent reversal. If I was sure about Thailand, I'd jump in and get the 5 year visa at its present 600,000 baht before it is withdrawn, as this will give you the option of upgrading by 15 years for 400,000 provided it is done within 3 months of the expiry of the original visa. We now know that the new 5-year visa to be introduced in a month or two will cost 900,000. I also think there will be no option to increase at the end. A 5 year visa is stuck in to a full page in your passport. Same with the 15 year upgrade. So your basic immigration rights will not be affected. It's the perks that they seem to want to play around with. 

Against that, you will still be just 74 by the end of the 20 years. By then, I am certain Elite visas will be a great deal more expensive - assuming there are no more issues severely affecting the Thai economy. What would you plan to do then?