Reviewing the five visa options for retirement in Thailand

[reader]

From Pattaya Mail

By Barry Kenyon

Thailand regularly appears in the top ten destinations chosen by foreigners wanting to retire abroad. Unlike other south east Asian countries, Thailand does not offer a retiree visa as such but a number of choices aimed specifically or partially at this market.

Non-immigrant “O” visa conversion
This is the most popular route at present. A foreigner aged at least 50 enters the country with a visa exempt or tourist visa (30 or 60 days) and applies at local immigration to convert it to a three months non-immigrant “O” and thence to an annual extension of stay based on retirement. Typically, the financial requirement is 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or proof of monthly transfers to Thailand of at least 65,000 baht. The detailed bureaucracy varies in immigration offices nationwide and several embassies now refuse to get involved in certifying the creditworthiness of their own nationals.

One big attraction for many of the non-immigrant “O” route is that, to date, medical insurance is not required and the paperwork is fairly straightforward. A foreigner with a foreign spouse will be treated as separate individuals and both must provide the financial guarantee. When leaving the country, re-entry permits must be obtained and the 90 days address reporting is in play. Applicants who are short of cash at the time of application or annual renewal are not forbidden from “borrowing” cash from third parties as the check is only on the amounts in the applicant’s bank book. The cost of the visa is 1,900 baht (US$60) assuming no extras have been accumulated along the way.

Non-immigrant “O/A” long stay visa
This is a 12 months visa offered by Thai embassies abroad to retiree applicants, with or without a multiple entry built in. The financial requirements are similar to the “O” extension of stay, but there are additional documents such as a medical certificate illustrating freedom from certain diseases. The visa can be renewed annually at Thai immigration offices. The big problem with the O/A option is that comprehensive medical insurance is required from day one and continues with every annual extension. The Thai Cabinet authorized an annual sum of US$100,000 or 3 million baht. Many retirees have tried to get rid of their O/A and change to “O” extension of stay, but this cannot be done without leaving the country and altering visa status overseas. The cost of OA annually is 1,900 baht (US$60) assuming all the documentation is in order.

“O/X” ten year retiree visa
This little-known option was introduced in late 2016 and offered a ten year multiple entry stay (actually 5×2 years) to retirees aged at least 50 in 14 countries including UK, US, Australia and some EU states. It was available at Thai embassies abroad and at immigration offices in Thailand. The visa never became airborne as the bureaucracy was complex, requiring a crime-free certificate from the home country and an investment of 3 million baht in a Thai bank. Options were available to include spouses and dependent children in the visa allocation. However, the visa did specify that working as a volunteer was OK although no detail was set out. Neither the immigration bureau nor the Thai Cabinet ever issued updates on the visa which is usually assumed to have been stillborn. The fee was 10,000 baht.

The Elite visa
Current enrolments are said to be around 30,000 all told. The Elite visa is not specifically aimed at retirees and there are no age bars. Although there are several variants, the most popular option is the five years, multi-entry choice currently available for a one-off payment of 600,000 baht and renewable. 10 and 20 year options with family guarantees are also available. Attractions for the retiree market include no need for medical insurance and no requirement to show updated bank account details every year. The visa also includes some special privileges such as fast-track at Thai airports which has been favorably reported by customers, particularly in the past year or so.

Long Term Residence
Introduced in 2022 by the Board of Investment, the LTR is a 10 year open visa designed to attract high spenders and investors from overseas. The four categories do include one specifically aimed at retirees over 50 which has so far attracted over 1,000 initial applications (32 percent of the total). The wealthy pensioner is expected to show a substantial regular income as well as evidence of investment such as Thai property or Thai bonds. All LTR applicants must show medical insurance. The overall idea is to encourage settlement by foreign millionaires. The LTR has not attracted the international interest originally anticipated and is perhaps best suited to economic experts and investors keen to take advantage of generous tax breaks. The enrolment fee is 50,000 baht and reporting to immigration is once a year rather than three-monthly.

Conclusions
 For retirees, the cheapest and most flexible option is the annual extension of stay, although the Elite visa with its initial down payment and no further financial checks is increasingly being seen in a favorable light. The LTR and the stillborn “O/X” both suffer from complex enrolment bureaucracy and neither offers significant advantages to foreign retirees. None of the visas avoid the need for a work permit for regular employment, although side issues such as being a member of a condominium committee or helping to organize occasional sports or entertainment activities are no longer seen as breaches of the alien labour act. The biggest unknown is the future of medical insurance as a compulsory element in applications. At present, the most popular routes for retirees aged over 50 – the non immigrant “O” and Elite choices – have no such requirement. If that policy was changed and enforced, the proverbial cat would certainly appear amongst the pigeons. Older retirees are the expats whom insurance companies most want to avoid.

[PeterRS]

A note for all Thailand Elite holders. Although there has been absolutely no notification from the Elite office, one of the legal firms authorized to handle Elite requests let the cat out of the bag last week when it stated the Elite programme is being revamped on Oct 1. The only info it contains is that the family visa is being dropped. Worse for those on the basic programme costing 600,000 baht for 5 years expecting a renewal for 15 years at 400,000 baht, it seems certain that renewal is either also being dropped or substantially modified. 
 

Try getting the Elite Visa hotline to confirm annything over the long holiday weekend and the operators were clueless. They had not even been briefed on changes. Then a number of blog sites have all written in recent days that the last date for applying and paying for existing Elite card programmes and extensions will in fact be August 15! 
 

With so many unknowns and the almost certainty of only 2 weeks formal notice of what seem to be very major changes, I have already heard from a number of furious Elite members - and I am presently in Taipei! Clearly something is about to change and it may happen very quickly. My only advice to those planning to apply for an Elite card or holding the basic 5 year card and hoping to renew is to get cash ready and stand by for a quick 15 year upgrade. I’ll post more info when Thai Elite finally get round to informing existing members.

[reader]

Pattaya Mail columnist Barry Kenyon chimed in today on the fate of the Elite Visa:

The Thai Elite visa, which offers multiple-entry stays between five and 20 years, will totally replace its current packages on October 1 2023. Founded by then prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003, Thailand Privilege Card Company is wholly owned by the Ministry of Tourism and Sports. But a new senior management team at Elite has decided to introduce unprecedented changes.

All new applications for Elite must be made by September 15 under the existing application rules: after that it will be too late. Current holders of the popular Elite Easy Access – a five year visa available for as cash payment of 600,000 baht – have until August 15 to transfer to a longer Elite visa, usually for 20 years: after that it will be also be too late.

Enrolment and renewal fees are likely to rise as the principle of Elite has always been to attract high spenders, wealthy expats and global citizens. The number of packages, some of which include deals for expat families as well as individuals, may well be reduced or combined.

Scrutiny of application details will almost certainly be intensified. Currently, files are checked against the Thai immigration database and information held by Thai embassies abroad. This referral might be extended to Interpol after it was found necessary to cancel some Elite members who were involved in “grey” businesses or fraudulent or criminal international activity. Other memberships have been refused to some Elite holders whose original visas were for study or voluntary work – sometimes dubiously issued for untraceable cash during the Covid pandemic.

Membership of Elite programs stultified in the few thousand members for many years, but zoomed to over 20,000 in 2022 and is now thought to be nearing 30,000. Well over one third of recent applications are from Chinese citizens, but Thai MPs and tourist authorities have both complained publicly about abuses. For example, visa agents in Chinese cities have been offering under-the-table Elite visas in return for mammoth cash sums. Some abuses have been linked to corruption in Thai immigration and disreputable language schools enrolling absentee learners.

[reader]

From Pattaya Mail

Top cop urges retirement visa rules to be tightened

By Barry Kenyon

Thailand’s best known crime cracker, police general Surachate Hakparn, has openly stated that one year retirement visas and extensions of stay are plagued by out-of-date regulations and corrupt practices. In an interview with the Bangkok Post, the deputy national police chief said that the requirement to have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or its equivalent in annual foreign remittances, was too low as it failed to screen quality applicants. Police general Surachate added that “window dressing” of applicants’ bank accounts was a serious problem as visa agents and even some immigration officers colluded by providing short-term “loans”.

He continued that he would propose to the new Thai Cabinet that the 1979 immigration act, which still governs some visa practices, be replaced. Police general Surachate did not detail his policy recommendations for retirement visa extensions apart from emphasizing that the entry bar was set too low and was too easily circumvented. The context of his interview was the all-importance of getting rid of foreign motorbike gangs plaguing Pattaya, Phuket and Koh Samui in particular. Sociologists call this approach “deviancy amplification” as it highlights one particular criminal issue in order to justify policy action against a much wider group in society.

Police general Surachate’s observations have struck a chord as he is a former commander of both the tourist police division and, for a short period, the immigration bureau in 2018-19. In the past few years, there have been occasional attempts to toughen the bureaucracy for retirees such as introducing compulsory medical insurance for some visas and extensions – notably the “O/A” retiree option initially issued by a Thai embassy – and by checking bank books three months after the granting of an annual extension. But the efforts were largely non-consequential.

Although there are several visas suitable for single or retired retirees including Elite, Long Term Residence and Spouse options, the annually renewable retirement visa issued by the immigration bureau is far and away the most popular owing to its cheapness and easy availability for foreigners over 50 years. But it will likely be many months before policy revisions, if any, appear in the public forum. Concerns are already being raised about “the baby being thrown out with the bath water”. Most Thai retirees are elderly men 65-90-plus with no interest in joining a foreign mafia or even boarding a motorbike. Except perhaps to go to the pub.

 

[PeterRS]

On 8/1/2023 at 6:41 PM, reader said:

Current holders of the popular Elite Easy Access – a five year visa available for as cash payment of 600,000 baht – have until August 15 to transfer to a longer Elite visa, usually for 20 years: after that it will be also be too late.

i just returned from Taipei and learned officiallythis evening that the upgrade to 20 years with be withdrawn as reported on August 15. This is some kind of Immigration madness - but then Immigration in this country has hardly ever been considered barely sensible. When you take out a membership, it is usual in most service organisations I know of for the benefits of that membership to remain for the period of the membership - unless fees are not paid, the member commits a crime and other understanable causes. I can think of no instances where the terms of the membership are unilateraly changed during its currency. Not so Thailand Elite.

I suppose its managers fail to understand that the primary reason for the spike in memberships was an understanding on behalf of a lot of people that it would be easier to enter the country during covid. No doubt they will now jack up the price and be astonished in due course when membership falls again! After all, it was such a turkey for so many years there was talk of it being cancelled altogether.

On 8/2/2023 at 6:46 PM, reader said:

Although there are several visas suitable for single or retired retirees including Elite, Long Term Residence and Spouse options, the annually renewable retirement visa issued by the immigration bureau is far and away the most popular owing to its cheapness and easy availability for foreigners over 50 years. But it will likely be many months before policy revisions, if any, appear in the public forum. Concerns are already being raised about “the baby being thrown out with the bath water”.

And given the minuscule two-week notice of changes given by the mandarins at Thailand Elite, do not be surprised if new retirement financial regulations come in with a minimum of notice. That, if I recall correctly, is that happened when the 800,000 baht in an account for three months prior to application for a new annual visa was thrown out and it suddenly became 800,000 baht unspent in an account for 5 months reducing to 400,000 upspent for the rest of the year. Ironically we were informed in the media that this would be one way of stopping crook agents and crook Immigration officers. DId that work? Perhaps in some cases, but I suspect not many. But internet sites still talk about foreigners living on 30,000 or 40,000 baht per month!

It's really all very well for those on nice pensions or good social security benefits from the USA who can pay the 65,000 per month. Many retirees and potential retirees, however, do not fall into those categories and depend on pension pots and other sources of income.

Lots of cops spout all manner of silly jargon from time to time. But we were told some time ago that there is a Committee looking into long term retirement fees. Nothing has been heard from it as far as I know. Will the Thailand Elite changes herald more? No idea! But where fees have remained constant for more than a few years, I'll bet someone, somewhere is trying to work out if they ought to be raised!

[PeterRS]

I realise few here are members of Thailand Elite. These few might be interested to know I visited the Service Centre yesterday afternoon and insisted on meeting a senior manager. Eventually I met with the Member Service Manager. I made it plain - politely - that withdrawing a key benefit from a membership which was one of the inducements to joining as a member was morally disgraceful if not technically illegal. The way it should have been done is that existing members should have had their benefits kept intact until the end of their individual membership period - not unilaterally withdrawn midway. That is what any reasonable and responsible membership organisation would do.

I know of at least one lawyer who is talking about a class action suit against Thailand Elite. Such action is unlikely to have any success, but I pointed out that any legal action will inevitably find its way into major travel and international news outlets. That will put Thailand Elite very much on the PR back foot. I know from bitter experience that this can take many weeks if not months to overturn. It may also make at least some of those considering the new Thailand Elite programmes think twice before joining. All this was met with a weak smile and no response!

What I did find out is that the revamping of the organisation is, as most believed, a way to raise more cash. From 8 programmes presently on offer, these will be reduced to 4. I believe these will be for 5, 10, 15 and 20 years respectively. Each will be allocated a certain number of points which can then be redeemed for a variety of lifestyle choices, like limos to/from BKK and cinema tickets. Cinema tickets? Who spends millions to get free cinema tickets? It all seems a classic case of a Board of management that just gave in to the preferences of each individual member without the Chairman saying "Stop"! And where is the Chairman at this time of major change? On holiday in Switzerland!

At least I know the 5 year membership will certainly be more expensive than the present 600,000 baht. All she would say was that it would be less than 1 million. So anyone considering membership not only for 5 years but to take advantage of the longer periods still on offer should perhaps bring forward their plans.

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

All this was met with a weak smile and no response!

Surprised?

[TMax]

And the first thought I had when I saw the elite visa was going to change is for it to be slimmed down and be a lot more expensive. I did read earlier this year where they were concerned that it was a bit too easy for undesirables to get the elite and they were looking at making some checks a bit more thorough. Now the wait is on. 

[PeterRS]

There is a website for Thailand Elite Visa Members. Today it states that Siam Legal (presumably one of the law firms permitted to offer the visas) has confirmed that the lowest package from October 1 will be 900,000 baht for 5 years - a 50% increase. But then it says the highest one will be 5 million baht for 20 years (up 150%). I cannot work out why anyone would go for 20 years if they could purchase 4 x 5 years at 3.6 million. Presumably there will be some reason - like not possible toget back to back visas.

The site also states these prices were confirmed today by two Thailand Elite staff. So I was lied to yesterday when the membership services manager said nothing had been agreed re the new pricing! Should I have expected anything else! But as @TMax pointed out, it has become a lot more expensive.

[reader]

One the financial advantages expats have always cited was the overall "value" of moving to Thailand. Another was the relatively tame inflation rate.

Now is seems that both are beginning to evaporate. The increases are way out of proportion to inflation and erode value.

Hardest hit will be retirees relying on the Elite visa.

And if the cops are intent on keeping Chinese and Russian mobsters out, higher prices for the Elite will have the opposite effect. Those are the very visa seekers to whom money poses no problem; they'll be first in the queue.

When bar prices are discussed, punters are quick to cite the Thai approach to compensating for slow business cycles: raise prices. Looks like the Elite folks are taking a page from that strategy as they raise the bar going into low season.

 

[TMax]

Would need to win lotto to get an elite visa now 

[Boy69]

3 hours ago, reader said:

One the financial advantages expats have always cited was the overall "value" of moving to Thailand. Another was the relatively tame inflation rate.

Now is seems that both are beginning to evaporate. The increases are way out of proportion to inflation and erode value.

Hardest hit will be retirees relying on the Elite visa.

And if the cops are intent on keeping Chinese and Russian mobsters out, higher prices for the Elite will have the opposite effect. Those are the very visa seekers to whom money poses no problem; they'll be first in the queue.

When bar prices are discussed, punters are quick to cite the Thai approach to compensating for slow business cycles: raise prices. Looks like the Elite folks are taking a page from that strategy as they raise the bar going into low season.

 

I think the huge raise of the Elite Visas is preliminary step before complete cancelation in the future of this visa type. It's known that the Thai government is not satisfied from this procedure for years and looking carefully into this issue. 

[floridarob]

Was one of the reasons I chose Mexico over Thailand to live in....TIT mentality and the instability of rules/laws there. They can/do change anything on a whim  and without notice.

[Boy69]

1 hour ago, floridarob said:

Was one of the reasons I chose Mexico over Thailand to live in....TIT mentality and the instability of rules/laws there. They can/do change anything on a whim  and without notice.

Yes I agree, In the past I considered Thailand as potential country for retirement but not anymore you can't plane your future in such unstable rules and capricious government decisions. 

[vinapu]

I,d never retire in Thailand for simple reason - living there permanently deprives one chance of travelling there, one of biggest treats in life.

[Patanawet]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:50 AM, PeterRS said:

A note for all Thailand Elite holders. Although there has been absolutely no notification from the Elite office, one of the legal firms authorized to handle Elite requests let the cat out of the bag last week when it stated the Elite programme is being revamped on Oct 1. 

Try viewing TNT 'Tim Newton Today' on YouTube daily.
Nothing specifically gay but he tries to sort through all the various press releases puffs and rumours regarding various visas, political situations.
He recently had a meeting with a top Elite executive and was given info which he is not allowed to speak about yet.

His broadcasts are at 09:00 live daily (except Sundays when he has a 'Grumpy old Men vlogcast)  and the comments section is also live so he might reply to you live 'on air'.

[PeterRS]

On 8/5/2023 at 11:10 PM, Boy69 said:

I think the huge raise of the Elite Visas is preliminary step before complete cancelation in the future of this visa type. It's known that the Thai government is not satisfied from this procedure for years and looking carefully into this issue. 

With respect to @Boy69's view, I believe the real dissatisfaction was pronounced after the Elite programme had been running for about a dozen years. The first Thaksin government's Ministry of Tourism set it up specifically to attract more of the rich and famous to visit Thailand more regularly and for longer stays with less hassle. It was never intended as a replacement for a retirement visa. But that policy rarely worked and its membership remained massively behind projections. The government did consider abandoning it at that time but then decided to keep it going with some enhanced benefits. Too much loss of face would have resulted from cancellation!

I believe the programme was rescued by covid. Since it was easier to get back to Thailand with an Elite visa, the number of applications mushroomed. This started just after the idiotic Immigration Director changed the rules and insisted on the 800,000/400,000 bank deposit route for those seeking retirement visas on an annual basis rather than transferring monthly payments. As a result, the Elite programme seemed a more ideal retirement route, even though it was cash out and not returned.

Now, though, building on what i believe was a temporary house of cards, the management gurus have decided demand is there for them to make much more profit from the Elite programme. It's my view that they want to remove it as a retirement option and go back to the original plan of regular cash rich tourists. After all, who'd pay 900,000 baht cash with no cash return for a 5-years visa when the 800,000 route involves less outlay and money back on departure from Thailand - or death! Mind you, that presumes that the 800,000/400,000 route remains unchanged, and that is something I would never assume.

As far as I can find out on the internet, the "retirement" visa programme in Thailand was introduced in 1998 after the hugely damaging effects of the Asian Economic Crisis. I do not know if the monthly incoming transfer had then to be 65K baht. If so, then I fear someone in Immigration will also be looking at ways to increase that amount. And then wait for the mandatory medical insurance! The land of smiles is certainly becoming less appealing.

[Boy69]

48 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

And then wait for the mandatory medical insurance! The land of smiles is certainly becoming less appealing.

Is there an option at all to get medical insurance for elderly foreigners in Thailand?

I follow a YouTuber who lives in Thailand who couldn't find any insurance company willing to insure his 71 y.o. mom.

[Patanawet]

53 minutes ago, Boy69 said:

Is there an option at all to get medical insurance for elderly foreigners in Thailand?

I follow a YouTuber who lives in Thailand who couldn't find any insurance company willing to insure his 71 y.o. mom.

There are many ads on Facebook for insurances, some up to 100 y.o..
I just started on one called WR Life.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Boy69 said:

Is there an option at all to get medical insurance for elderly foreigners in Thailand?

Other than checking with insurance companies both in Thaland and overseas, I just don't know. The cut off date for most medical insurance seems to be 65 but there are travel companies that offer short-term insurance for travellers into their 80s.

I found this company on the internet which implies it offers insurance for older people. I know nothing about it, though. Checking any policy is obviously important as many add additional restrictions for over-65's and if you need a policy that is in effect also outside Thailand.

https://sbc-insurance.live/zurich_coris?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc_poisk&utm_campaign=TRAVELES_CORIS_Search&utm_adgroupid=Traveles_Coris_Zurich&utm_content=ob'avlenie_1&utm_placement=&utm_term=senior citizen travel insurance&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3rrWqOvJgAMVHtMWBR0A0gUrEAAYASAAEgInZ_D_BwE

[Boy69]

His elderly mom didn't come as tourist but as permanent expat and the YouTuber claimed no Thai insurance company is willing to make a medical insurance to his mom.

[fedssocr]

doesn't she have some pre-existing conditions as well?

[Boy69]

Yes she has .

4 hours ago, fedssocr said:

doesn't she have some pre-existing conditions as well?

 

[Patanawet]

As I said above, Facebook is full of ads. for medical insurance in Thailand.
I contacted several and they seem to be agents in Pattaya.
I went with one, WRLife, because a farang friend here has a policy with them (a UK based company).
We are both over 75.   Policies as low as 8K per month.

[reader]

From Pattaya Mail

Thailand’s Elite visa seeks to redefine a wealthy tourist

By Barry Kenyon

Big changes lie ahead for the Thai Elite visa. Following “careful consideration with stakeholders”, all programs will be discontinued to be replaced by totally new options from October this year. Those hoping to qualify under the current rules will need to submit their applications by September 15, whilst those already with 5-year Elite visas have until August 15 to extend to up to 20 years under the former regulations.

The Thailand Privilege Card Company, which hosts Elite, has not yet published the future criteria, but there have been strong hints. Firstly, the prices will rise substantially, perhaps 900,000 baht for five years (instead of the current 600,000) and five million baht for 20 years (instead of one million plus). In return, members will likely receive privileges rather like airmiles – the more you spend and the more frequently you visit Thailand the happier you will be with the perks. Those with the “el cheapo” five year Elite visas will likely not be delighted.

But Thailand will have to be careful not to price itself out of the worldwide expat market. It already offers a competitor visa, the ten year Long Term Residence run by the Board of Investment, which has not been a rip-roaring success to date with virtually no hard data published. Golden visas, however defined, need a lot of perks to compete internationally and no Thai proposal currently offers residence or a second passport, unlike the Indonesian and Cambodian equivalents. Certainly, bonuses such as fast-track airport services, freedom from the 90 days report and discounts at leisure facilities are unlikely to be enough if Elite enrolment fees rise steeply.

The real point about Elite visas is that what counted as a “rich foreigner” in 2003 at inception is very different from perceptions today. 20 years ago, the flat fee was 500,000 baht and enrollers were told they were indeed someone special. The numbers of subscribers remained in the 2 or 3 thousand range until the Covid pandemic illustrated to the international community, Chinese in particular, the benefits of being able to move easily between countries. Today there are around 30,000 Elite members, all classes, with more than one third being Chinese nationals. The rebranding of Elite is doubtless linked to China and Asia rather than to Europe or the USA.

Many on social media believe that the forthcoming rebranding of Elite is a bluff and little more than an attempt to boost new applications before the September 15 cut-off date. This scenario is unlikely. Thailand’s whole immigration system is clearly under review with the deputy national police chief recently predicting that annual, easy-coasting retirement visas – either a modest 800,000 baht cash in the bank or use of agents – will soon come to a shuddering halt. Separately, those with a dubious record in their visa history – for example absentee education students or voluntary work visas – are finding it difficult to obtain extensions or transfer to alternative permissions, including Elite.

Another imponderable concerns comprehensive medical insurance. Currently, the Elite visa (unlike Long Term Residence or “O/A” non-immigrant retirement) does not require cover. Nor does the annual extension of stay based on “O” retirement given by the immigration bureau. Already Cambodia has announced the establishment of a government working party to explore compulsory medical insurance for all foreigners who stay in the country beyond 30 days. Whilst it is true that Thailand’s visa structure for millions more foreigners is much more complex and certainly easier to circumvent, expats choosing Thailand from now on must be prepared for mega-change. Unwelcome as the prospect may be.