Kevin Spacey cleared of all charges

[reader]

FRom BBC

Hollywood actor Kevin Spacey wept in court as he was cleared of all charges in his sexual assault trial in London.

Jurors at Southwark Crown Court returned not guilty verdicts for nine sexual offence charges relating to four men between 2001 and 2013.

Speaking afterwards, Mr Spacey said he was "grateful" to the jury as he thanked them for their deliberations - which took more than 12 hours.

Outside the court the Oscar winner added he was "humbled".

The US actor was acquitted of seven counts of sexual assault, one count of causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent and one count of causing a person to engage in penetrative sexual activity without consent.

After the verdict was read, he put his hand on his chest, looked at the jurors and mouthed "thank you" twice before they left the room.

Addressing journalists on the court's steps Mr Spacey said there was "a lot for me to process".

"I would like to say that I am enormously grateful to the jury for having taken the time to examine all of the evidence and all of the facts carefully before they reached their decision," he said.

"I am humbled by the outcome today. I also want to thank the staff inside this courthouse, the security, and all of those who took care of us every single day."

Jurors rejected the prosecution's claims Mr Spacey had "aggressively" grabbed three men by the crotch and had performed a sex act on another man while he was asleep in his flat.

Prosecutors told the jury the star had left the four complainants feeling "small, diminished and worthless".

Mr Spacey, who turned 64 on Wednesday, denied all charges - saying the allegations against him were "weak", "madness" and a "stab in the back".

[forky123]

In UK law, the "victims" can't be named for legal reasons yet the accused, now proved innocent, has been hounded for years and he will never get back those years during which his career and reputation were trashed. 

[Lucky]

A finding of 'not guilty," desirable as it may be, is not a finding of innocence.

[forky123]

3 minutes ago, Lucky said:

A finding of 'not guilty," desirable as it may be, is not a finding of innocence.

You do not need to be "found innocent". The basis of UK law is a presumption of innocence or "Innocent until proven guilty". It's only in the media and social media where guilt is assumed based on what sells papers or clicks.

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, forky123 said:

he will never get back those years during which his career and reputation were trashed. 

When Spacey was still Artistic Director of London's Old Vic Theatre, I remember visiting Singapore to see him in a production of Shakespeare's Richard III. I doubted if he could bring it off but he was in fact excellent in the role. Thereafter the company went to Australia. One of my good friends there is a theatre Production Manager. What he told me about Spacey and the way he treated people in general (non-sexually) does not bear repeating. I cannot imagine what people in Hollywood actually think of him.

[forky123]

I don't know the man. I think though that there's been enough innuendo without the evidence to back it up. 

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, forky123 said:

I don't know the man. I think though that there's been enough innuendo without the evidence to back it up. 

Generally with so much innuendo and gossip, I would agree. But when a close friend I had known for almost 40 years and actually worked with the guy tells me about his experience, I do not believe he lies!

[forky123]

Being a twat to people may be repugnant but it is not a crime. 

[reader]

The juries of his peers have believed Spacey and that's where it counts.

He was the son of a physically and sexually abusive father. There was a scene in House of Cards  where, just after becoming president, Frank Underwood visits the grave of his father and pisses on it. Art imitating life.

I read Wikipedia's biography of Spacey yesterday after the verdict was announced. I was taken aback by his achievements over decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Spacey

[Lucky]

14 hours ago, forky123 said:

You do not need to be "found innocent". The basis of UK law is a presumption of innocence or "Innocent until proven guilty". It's only in the media and social media where guilt is assumed based on what sells papers or clicks.

Just so I am clear, I understand a not guilty verdict. The jury decided that the evidence to convict Spacey could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean they think Spacey didn't do it, it just wasn't proven. I have no idea what they think, but Spacey being acquitted is not Spacey being cleared.

[forky123]

Innocence is not a concept in UK courts. One is innocent until proven guilty. The verdict Not Guilty is not a verdict of innocence as that verdict does not exist. One is still innocent though as there has been no proof of guilt. Perhaps there will be civil cases now brought.

[omega]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

Just so I am clear, I understand a not guilty verdict. The jury decided that the evidence to convict Spacey could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean they think Spacey didn't do it, it just wasn't proven. I have no idea what they think, but Spacey being acquitted is not Spacey being cleared.

Yes. This is the case.

Spacey may still face civil court claims which relies on the balance of probability, rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[forky123]

57 minutes ago, omega said:

Yes. This is the case.

Spacey may still face civil court claims which relies on the balance of probability, rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

 

And yet again, he is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. If he is found guilty in a civil case, like Trump has been, he can be considered a guilty rapist. So far he has been not been found guilty in any court.

[omega]

4 minutes ago, forky123 said:

And yet again, he is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. If he is found guilty in a civil case, like Trump has been, he can be considered a guilty rapist. So far he has been not been found guilty in any court.

Yep.

I don't have any knowledge beyond what is known via news reports. I can make no judgements myself. Just expressing how things might go now.

[caeron]

There is plenty of evidence that he did this multiple other times to other men. Dozens of men don't come out of the woodwork to make accusations spontaneously. That they did not have enough proof here to convict doesn't make him not a sexual predator who used his power and position to extort sexual favors.

I think the destruction of his career was warranted and self-inflicted. He can spend the rest of his life in social exile.

 

 

[forky123]

Evidence is not proof. It's a very slippery slope we are on when evidence and proof are confused. 

[PeterRS]

11 hours ago, forky123 said:

And yet again, he is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. If he is found guilty in a civil case, like Trump has been, he can be considered a guilty rapist. So far he has been not been found guilty in any court.

Even if the guy is a prime douchebag as my friend claims, that does not make him a sexual molester or rapist. Let's not forget that this is not the first sexual charge against Spacey. One taken out in 2017 by actor Anthony Rapp alleged he had been sexually assualted aged 14. Rapp claimed US$40 million in damages! That case went to court in New York and was dismissed

Another actor claimed that Spacey raped him in 1983 when he was also 14. He joined Rapp's case but eventually dropped out of the lawsuit, allegedly because he did not want his name publicised!

The fact is there have been quite a number of sexual misconduct allegations against Spacey, but none has yet been proved in a court of law! I hope that if the guys who lost their case in London do take out civil procedings, they have a lot of financial backing. It will prove horribly expensive - especially if they lose.

[Mavica]

I think he's guilty as charged.

[forky123]

2 hours ago, Mavica said:

I think he's guilty as charged.

Then go prove it !

[stevenkesslar]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:31 AM, forky123 said:

Evidence is not proof. It's a very slippery slope we are on when evidence and proof are confused. 

True.  Arguably, in this case the man is disgraced enough.  He has lost his career, deservedly.  Is jail or additional punishment necessary?  Perhaps not.

Kevin Spacey Has Been Cleared of Sexual-Assault Allegations Once Again

I think he should go away forever.  I think he has been disgraced because he is a disgrace.

When I think of someone who deserves redemption, the immediate name that comes to mind is Al Franken.  The accusations against Franken were mostly about things he did in public.  Like a pretend grabbing of a fellow performers breasts on camera.  Touching a woman the wrong way at the Minnesota State Fair.  Seven of his fellow Senators have said they regret throwing him under the bus. In his case I think there's a good case that, while he said and did some gross things, he was a victim of the intense mood of a particular moment.

Kevin Spacey was not a victim of the moment.  He sounds like Bill Cosby, Donald Trump, and Bill Clinton.  A serial abuser who did it again, and again, and again.  That article above goes through 30 men who have accused Spacey, some named and some anonymous, going back to the 1980's.  As Cosby's case suggests, no matter how many accusers it can be hard to prove.  As Trump and Clinton suggest, it gets very complicated when you talk about how to hold prominent serial abusers accountable - if you even can.

I had no idea this trial was even happening.  But I actually was thinking about Spacey today for a completely different reason.  I usually don't follow celebrities at all.   I am following the stuff around Taylor Zakhar Perez daily.   I watched The Kissing Booth 1, but skipped 2 and watched the last part of 3 just to see how it all ended.  In other words, TZP did not catch my interest at all.  Now I'm fascinated.  Because he is being outed, all over the planet, basically for being Gay and married. 

The latest spin I learned today, which shows how little I follow this stuff, is that it is very similar to what happened to the Gay Mexican actor Polo Morin, who was also outed.  Basically for being Gay.  He is described in that article as Mexico's most prominent Gay actor.  The good news is his career seems stronger than ever.  Perez is not the most prominent Gay actor in the US.  But he is certainly the most prominent Gay actor in the moment.  So it is interesting that the most prominent Gay actors in the US and Mexico came out because they were outed.  Happily, the most prominent Gay actor from Canada, Luke Macfarlane, came out in 2008 because he didn't want to have to tell all the typical lies that he said "tortured and ruined" many Gay actors in the past. He has not suffered for being honest.

Meanwhile, Spacey spent his whole career compiling a long list of allegations of predatory behavior, which came out when he did - decades later, simply because he was accused.  If this stems from him having a "neo-Nazi" father as he claims, he has my sympathy.  But not my support.  I want Gay men like TZP, Morin, and McFarlane representing me.  If you can now be a successful and beloved Gay actor with a hubby and child, that is fantastic news. 

But we still have cultural work to do if prominent Gay actors are being outed. This is also a little complicated.   Because just a few years ago when TZP was asked questions by Glamour like "Are you single?"  it is understandable to me that he had good reason to think, "No, I am married and I have a husband" may have been the wrong answer.  If he wanted to have a career.  He said he was "not dating," and in the same interview said "I'm a fan of Joey [King] and wish she would date me."  If answers like that got us Red, White, and Royal Blue, it kind of makes stretching the truth look sexy.  😉  But there is still work to do.  Happily, TZP just went to her wedding, apparently with his husband.  They'll all be fine.

When I was reading all this today I tried to think of other prominent Gay actors who have been outed.  Spacey was the name that immediately came to mind.  But I don't put him in the same ballpark, or even the same century, as these other guys.  I can see Spacey as one of those men that was "tortured and ruined" by the homophobia of the past.  But I don't want him representing me in the future.  I hope he just goes away.  And lets others be the role models of what it means to be Gay now.  I am thrilled that we have a bunch of honest and adorable Gay men who are able to take the lead, if they choose.

[PeterRS]

10 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

I can see Spacey as one of those men that was "tortured and ruined" by the homophobia of the past.

I have never looked up Spacey's past. But there are plenty of other people who have been "tortured" in one way or another as they were growing up, often by relatives. I do not think that necessarily means their lives are "ruined". Therapy helps a lot of people who have endured often shocking childhoods. Did he seek any? I have no idea. I just know from the basis of what friends who have met him have told me that he is not someone I would wish to meet or whom I admire as a person. As an actor, I think he has shown many fine qualities.

It is, I suggest, interesting that today we have news from the BBC's website of a massively long string of abuses of underage boys by the founder of the agency which had the largest stable of boy bands in Japan. In view of the depravity of this man, I have started a new thread.

On 7/28/2023 at 12:29 AM, caeron said:

There is plenty of evidence that he did this multiple other times to other men. Dozens of men don't come out of the woodwork to make accusations spontaneously. That they did not have enough proof here to convict doesn't make him not a sexual predator who used his power and position to extort sexual favors.

It's interesting, I think, that the legal system in Scotland is different from that in England and Wales. Under Scottish Law there is a third verdict a jury can deliver - Not Proven. 

[forky123]

Has Kevin Spacey been found guilty of anything at all? I was under the impression he hadn't but admit to not being very celebrity conscious. It is surprising to me that someone that hasn't been found to have committed sexual assaults is hounded when you have Trump, a proven rapist and serial sexual assaulter, vying to be POTUS.

[stevenkesslar]

57 minutes ago, forky123 said:

Has Kevin Spacey been found guilty of anything at all? I was under the impression he hadn't but admit to not being very celebrity conscious. It is surprising to me that someone that hasn't been found to have committed sexual assaults is hounded when you have Trump, a proven rapist and serial sexual assaulter, vying to be POTUS.

Spacey has never been found guilty.  The actor who sued him for molesting him as a child, Anthony Rapp, lost his case.   I didn't follow it.  But it sounds just from reading that article like almost every other sexual abuse or rape case.  Goal # 1 is to discredit the accuser.  At least enough to make things cloudy.  Which it sounds like Spacey's lawyers were able to do. 

The nice thing for Democrats is Bill Clinton can now just be part of our past.  Unlike Trump for Republicans.  Biden deserves a mention here, mostly as someone who is NOT like the others.  He was accused, but by one woman.  Who was not particularly credible, for lots of reasons.  There's no comparison with how many people accused Spacey (or Trump or Clinton) of serially engaging in the same behaviors.

My main point is that the LGBTQ community has not, and should not, treat Spacey the way Republicans treat Trump and Democrats treated Clinton at the time.

I think this was clear, but when I used "tortured and ruined" it certainly was not an excuse for any of the things Spacey was accused of doing.  As has been noted, Spacey himself used a version of "tortured and ruined" - his White supremacist neo Nazi father - as a way to explain why he never came out until he was accused.  That's very understandable.  My hope is that Spacey, and the whole concept of "tortured and ruined" Gays, is increasingly just a symbol of the way things used to be.  Including how we were viewed:  as predators.  As this article spelled out nicely:

Quote

Then, in the same apology note, Spacey takes the time to announce that he has chosen to “live as a gay man.” This attempt to shift attention from Rapp’s allegations has been widely met with backlash online, as people point out that not only is Spacey’s coming-out a calculated public relations move, but it also reinforces dated and dangerous stereotypes that conflate homosexuality with pedophilia.

 

[forky123]

Until he's found guilty of something or successfully sued I'll continue simply enjoying his acting. I'm not saying he hasn't done anything wrong, then again who hasn't? Trial and punishment via social media is pretty sickening. Let's face it, anyone in this forum who goes to Thailand for the money boys does so illegally (yes I know the laws are ambiguous and not enforced). I wonder how 50+ year old men paying 18 year olds for sex in Thailand would be treated by social media? 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, forky123 said:

Until he's found guilty of something or successfully sued I'll continue simply enjoying his acting. I'm not saying he hasn't done anything wrong, then again who hasn't? Trial and punishment via social media is pretty sickening. Let's face it, anyone in this forum who goes to Thailand for the money boys does so illegally (yes I know the laws are ambiguous and not enforced). I wonder how 50+ year old men paying 18 year olds for sex in Thailand would be treated by social media? 

It's not just social media. Any well-known personality is often hounded by the national media and assumed to be guilty. Of course some are - but then some are not.

There was a famous case in Thailand a little more than a decade or so ago when one of the world's most famous classical pianists and conductors who happened to visit Pattaya where he had a house outside the city was accused of being a pedophile. A 14-year old boy alleged the man had molested him. In Thailand the police have three attempts to question a potential law breaker. Failure to do so results in an arrest warrant being issued.

With a very hectic worldwide concert schedule, he only visited his Thai house for a week to 10 days maybe three times a year when he was en route to or from countries like Japan and Australia. He was never in his house when police tried to talk with him. Accordingly the arrest warrant was issued. When arrested in the summer, the police, as is usual in this country, were accompanied by a posse of news media. He was taken to the local police station. He denied the accusation. Being someone obviously very wealthy, he could have passed around a few large brown envelopes and immediately left the country. The world would have known nothing. From the outset, though, he stated he was innocent and would prove it in Court. Remarkably for anyone accused of being a pedophile, he was not thrown in prison. He was bailed for less than $10,000 and given his passport back so that he could take part in upcoming concerts. He promised he would return every 12 days for bail renewal hearings.

Rumours quickly spread that the police had discovered a pedophile ring providing underage boys for expats and tourists. It was then claimed this man was its ringleader. And so on it went.

His "arrest" was on the front pages of most world news media. His concert contracts were cancelled and social media had a field day. "No smoke without fire" was one of the most common. Another was "why spend short vacations in Thailand if he was not a rampant pedophile?" The fact that his career regularly took him to many of the world's cities with a gay scene went totally unremarked. It turned out he was gay and he had a boyfriend aged around 25. That was enough to brand him as a child molester.

After he had left Thailand the first time, the Deputy Director of Immigration was quoted in banner headlines in the nation's newspapers, "He'll never come back!" It was then announced that he was on a blacklist and would not even be permitted to return - despite the Court mandate that he had to return! It was all b/s!

True to his word, he returned to Thailand at his own expense for the six bail renewal hearings every 12 days. Each time, the judge renewed his bail. And each time there was a media scrum outside the Court. On five occasions there were between 15 and 20 media reps waiting for him including the main news agencies. Except once. For the last, the police had informed the judge that they had informed the Publc Prosecutor they had no case. After all the media furore and the damage to this man's career, the case was dismissed. When he left court that day a totally free man, all the media had disappeared. Not one media rep was there to hear the verdict. Who had issued the order for "no media" is not known.

What has never been answered is what happened to the 14 year old boy. He was in the custody of some family child-care facility. But he disappeared and was never found. Then it was discovered that the day before the "arrest", an internet cafe owner who lived close by had been stopped by the police and discovered to have underage porn DVDs in his motorcycle. He was arrested, admitted that he had had sex with the 14 year old boy who worked in his internet shop at least 20 times (and also with the other underage boys who worked there), but then immediately escaped and could not be found. He was eventually discovered some weeks after the musician's case had been dismissed. He was watching a movie in a Pattaya cinema. He had been under the police noses the whole time.

The whole affair was obviously some sort of set up, but by whom and for what reason has been open to speculation. The internet cafe owner seemed to know of this man's reputation. Was his name given up when the jerk was arrested in the hope this might get him a lighter sentence. It was also known that a publlic service organisation which received funding from a United Nations agency was applying for additional cash. If it could show more activity by snaring a well-known personality, might this help release more funds? Who knows what the reason was. All we do know is that one man's career was severely affected in the short-medium term and goodness knows what else it did to his reputation. In that case, all media and the Thai authorities have a great deal to answer for.