British student’s harrowing balcony plunge

[forrestreid]

There appears to be many stories nowadays of young foreign tourists who have an accident in Thailand, and find that their health insurance does not pay for it.

I see that the insurance company are refusing to pay out after looking in to the facts of the case, although it is not explained whether this was because they think the hotel was at fault, or the young man was, or whatever.

I wonder was it just because he had alcohol in his blood?

I remember hearing about reading British tourist who fell on some stairs after an evening out in Thailand, he was denied an insurance payout as the medical records (requested by the insurer) indicated some alcohol, his blood.  But the young British guy said he only had a few drinks and was far from drunk. He said that the stumble on the stairs was purely bad luck.

The question is what is regarded as so much alcohol as to be reckless?  Obviously young people going out for a night in Thailand will usually drink, if they walking home to their accommodation and fall, how much alcohol should they have in their blood before it negates their policy. Presumably higher that the maximum that you can drink and drive with, but how much higher?

This is probably something the insurance regulator in Britain (and Ireland too) could look at. Considering that many young people are going to Thailand and paying insurance, one wonders what they are getting out of it,  based on the fact that they are much more likely to claim for an accident than, say, getting a heart attack.

[unicorn]

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

... If as @forky123 points out a British court would take the case, which in itself must be doubtful in the absence of a mountain of paperwork about the event itself, witnesses affirming the state of upkeep of the hotel and the stability of its balconies, any previous similar cases...

If the insurance was properly paid-for, it would probably be the insurance company's burden to prove why it shouldn't pay (at least if UK courts work similarly to US courts). If the hotel were negligent in its maintenance duties, or abiding to building codes, that would be irrelevant as to any case between the insured and the insurance company, since the insured doesn't own the hotel. Of course, if the hotel were negligent, then I suppose the insurance company could try to sue the hotel (in Thai courts), but good luck with that. I know that when I buy travel insurance, I'm asked to provide the destination country, airline I'll be taking, and so on. I assume that this is because rates differ between countries and airlines, depending on their risks (in part, for example, as to how well that country enforces building codes and airline safety regulations). 

[PeterRS]

9 hours ago, unicorn said:

 I know that when I buy travel insurance, I'm asked to provide the destination country, airline I'll be taking, and so on. I assume that this is because rates differ between countries and airlines, depending on their risks (in part, for example, as to how well that country enforces building codes and airline safety regulations). 

A very good point. For decades I had an annual travel insurance policy valid everywhere in the world. It had several general exceptions for personal accident - like winter sports - but nothing as far as I can recall regarding individual countries unless the British government had given specific warnings in advance of travel. Having given that policy up due to cost and reduced travel, like @unicorn I find short term policies do request a list of countries visiting, although not the airline.

[unicorn]

I usually get my insurance through https://www.insuremytrip.com/

They always ask age, country of travel, airline (if any), and cruise company (if any). 

[Aux1010]

On 7/9/2023 at 3:52 PM, PeterRS said:

A very good point. For decades I had an annual travel insurance policy valid everywhere in the world. It had several general exceptions for personal accident - like winter sports - but nothing as far as I can recall regarding individual countries unless the British government had given specific warnings in advance of travel. Having given that policy up due to cost and reduced travel, like @unicorn I find short term policies do request a list of countries visiting, although not the airline.

Prior to Covid, the short-term policies I'd purchase would be based on 'regions' (i.e. if I selected any South East Asian country such as Thailand as my destination, it'd cover basically all other countries within that region. Though as you mentioned, excluding any countries with government-issued travel warnings). There were also options to purchase world-wide coverage. On my latest trip post-Covid, I noticed it had changed to only country-specific (i.e. each specific country had to be selected). I didn't actually notice the change until after I'd purchased the policy, but luckily I only ended up visiting Thailand (whereas in the past I'd normally visit several countries in the region).

[Aux1010]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[gayinpattaya]

I believe this is all part of failed Western culture, where young folk now believe they are entitled, invincible, and untouchable. They have an upbringing protected from reality and told how important they are. They have no understanding of the world outside of their protected bubble and pretty things on social media. 

The reality is, when they do travel to the "real world".... It's not all fun and games.   

It reminds me of this article recently: 
https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/07/06/live-streamers-arrested-awaiting-trial-in-thailand-after-debauchery-involving-sex-toys-lingerie-at-luxury-hotel-restaurant/

The story of a bunch of USA idiots who thought they could play their idiotic "pranks" in Bangkok, to get internet likes from other American basement dwellers. 
They decided to fuck around in Banyan Tree in Bangkok.... Not smart to mess with Hiso Thai's. 
I'm actually hoping they don't get deported and spend years rotting in a hole. 

Normal people, at home or abroad, don't fall off balconies. 
Idiots do...
Victims of murder do...
 

[Keithambrose]

11 hours ago, gayinpattaya said:

I believe this is all part of failed Western culture, where young folk now believe they are entitled, invincible, and untouchable. They have an upbringing protected from reality and told how important they are. They have no understanding of the world outside of their protected bubble and pretty things on social media. 

The reality is, when they do travel to the "real world".... It's not all fun and games.   

It reminds me of this article recently: 
https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/07/06/live-streamers-arrested-awaiting-trial-in-thailand-after-debauchery-involving-sex-toys-lingerie-at-luxury-hotel-restaurant/

The story of a bunch of USA idiots who thought they could play their idiotic "pranks" in Bangkok, to get internet likes from other American basement dwellers. 
They decided to fuck around in Banyan Tree in Bangkok.... Not smart to mess with Hiso Thai's. 
I'm actually hoping they don't get deported and spend years rotting in a hole. 

Normal people, at home or abroad, don't fall off balconies. 
Idiots do...
Victims of murder do...
 

And dissidents, have a strange habit of falling out if windows!

[reader]

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

And dissidents, have a strange habit of falling out if windows!

Only in Russia as reader above indicates

[Keithambrose]

22 hours ago, vinapu said:

Only in Russia as reader above indicates

South Africa?  

[vinapu]

2 minutes ago, Keithambrose said:

South Africa?  

There too? No wonder both countries are close friends. 

 

[Keithambrose]

1 minute ago, vinapu said:

There too? No wonder both countries are close friends. 

 

Not so much in post apartheid days, but slipping from a balcony from State Security headquarters not unknown!

 

I follow your posts with interest, and I wonder if you are still in Bangkok next week? I arrive Wednesday!

[vinapu]

3 minutes ago, Keithambrose said:

 

I follow your posts with interest, and I wonder if you are still in Bangkok next week? I arrive Wednesday!

My posts with interest? That,s something, very thank you! 

 

[thaiophilus]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:17 PM, vinapu said:

Only in Russia as reader above indicates

It originated in Prague 🙃.

[vinapu]

14 hours ago, thaiophilus said:

It originated in Prague 🙃.

As older then us you probably better remember that Prague defenestrstion in 1620 I guess

[thaiophilus]

11 hours ago, vinapu said:

As older then us you probably better remember that Prague defenestrstion in 1620 I guess

1620? You youngsters today have no sense of history.  I'm talking about the events of 1419! 🤣

[Keithambrose]

3 hours ago, thaiophilus said:

1620? You youngsters today have no sense of history.  I'm talking about the events of 1419! 🤣

Also 1948!

[gayinpattaya]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:39 PM, Keithambrose said:

And dissidents, have a strange habit of falling out if windows!

victims of murder. I covered that. 

[reader]

Promises and perils of crowdfunding hospital bills

From Pattaya Mail

By Barry Kenyon

For the 67 injured Brits who have appealed for cash to pay hospital bills in Thailand since the beginning of 2023, charity giving is both the first stop and a last resort. The British government and insurance companies will instantly recommend the route to distraught families, but the relatives in question can’t find mega-cash anywhere else in any case. Commercial funding platforms such as the highly popular GoFundMe handle most of the campaigns.

A review of the ads suggests that the average amount requested was around 25,000 GBP, with about 40 percent of the cash actually donated by the time the ad was cancelled or, more commonly, simply fell into disuse. In almost every surveyed case, the reason for crowdfunding was an untimely accident such as a road accident (often involving a motorbike) or a fall from the condominium apartment. The handful of exceptions related to being beaten up on the street or being knifed in a quarrel with Thai nationals.

The general assumption seems to be that provided prior travel insurance is taken out, the insured person is guaranteed free medical treatment abroad. But travel insurers look much more carefully at expensive hospital operations than claims for lost luggage or leaving your camera on a bus. In less than 10 percent of the cases did relatives explain publicly why insurers had refused to fund, but insurance assessor Duncan Webb told Pattaya Mail that the main reasons were suspicion of alcohol or narcotics abuse (including marijuana recently declassified in Thailand), not having a valid international or Thai driving licence and not wearing a crash helmet or seat belt. That failure means the patient was not observing due care and attention.

According to several surveys, only about half of British tourists abroad carry any form of medical insurance. The Thai authorities did have a limited policy of covid-related cover being required during the pandemic, but this was abolished in 2022. Now only a very few Thai visas carry the requirement and they are all for non-tourist categories such as work permit holders or some long term residence foreigners registered with the Board of Investment. Uninsured foreigners are expected to pay for all inpatient and outpatient care. Inability to do so can result in treatment plan cancellation.

Our survey of the 67 publicized cases revealed that over half never revealed what actually happened to the injured Brit, or are still pending. In four cases, we know that death intervened. A few others said that family members had managed to negotiate a financial agreement with the hospital, whilst still others said recovery had been good enough to secure a ticket on a commercial flight. We did not find any examples of an air ambulance being hired, the typical Thai-UK cost being 75,000 GBP or more.

Charity crowdfunding is obviously here to stay although it very rarely indeed achieves the anticipated cash sums. The available evidence suggests that the more successful cash campaigns tell a complete story, provide updates with frequent photos or short videos and share the experience on social media. Fundraising events in UK to supplement the crowdfunding cash are also desirable. The average age of the 67 Brits reviewed in this case study was only 36 years and most were injured at night. So it’s hard to escape the conclusion that booze and driving are obvious routes to ending up on a hospital stretcher.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, reader said:

it’s hard to escape the conclusion that booze and driving are obvious routes to ending up on a hospital stretcher.

Sad but true. Excellent article and one that should be mandatory reading for all tourists - and not merely younger ones. 

[KeepItReal]

On 7/8/2023 at 3:45 AM, unicorn said:

Well, I don't know about British law, but in the US, if you bought your policy in the US from a company which does business in the US, you could sue in US courts. I'm not sure if this would come under the state or federal court system, but if the company refused to pay your bills, you wouldn't have to rely on Thai courts. I think it comes under the regular, state courts, because when I've purchased travel insurance, there are pages devoted to differences in coverage depending on what state you're in. 

Indeed.  Insurance is regulated at the State level in the USA. Each State has an Insurance Commissioner. You can file a complaint at the office of the Insurance Commissioner and usually when you indicate that you will also complain to the State Attorney General, they move quite quick to resolve it.  You cannot sell/offer insurance in a State without being licensed in that State. 

[Mavica]

The devil is in the details.  The small print.  There are many possible / legitimate exclusions that most of us may think unfair.  

[unicorn]

7 hours ago, Mavica said:

The devil is in the details.  The small print.  There are many possible / legitimate exclusions that most of us may think unfair.  

Fortunately, the law often limits the fine print. The law has to limit underhanded insurance company schemes, otherwise each time we bought insurance, we'd have to hire a lawyer to go over the details and negotiate each contract. These policies generally run some 30 pages or so long and are written in legalese. Obviously, most people don't have the ability/means to go over everything each time they want to buy a travel policy. This is why we have laws--to limit sneaky insurance company tricks. Yes, insurance companies should be able to invalidate claims which result from the insureds' law violations, such as driving under the influence. However, one should not be able to invalidate a policy just because the insured had some drinks at his hotel. As others have mentioned, we lack enough details in this particular case to come to a judgment. 

[Mavica]

Quote

The law has to limit underhanded insurance company schemes ... 

 

Yes, and the law has to limit false claims by scamming insureds.  I've had friends who've filed false claims, for things which were their wrongdoing / damages.  If / when someone files an inappropriate claim and is compensated ... the rest of us who don't act that way pay the price, eventually.