Gaybutton Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Today I received a letter from Bangkok Bank. Here are the significant portions: __________ Bankok Bank understands that you have set up a normal savings account to receive funds transfer under direct deposit program of the United States government agencies through Bangkok Bank. The Direct deposit program of the United States government stipulates that in the event of a person receiving funds transferred from the US government dies or is declared by a court as of unable or of impaired ability, Bangkok Bank is required to hold the funds immediately after the death or court ruling, and return the funds to the US government. In compliance with the US direct deposit program regulation, we need to request that you change your savings account to a Direct Deposit account. Failure to comply will result in Bangkok Bank not being able to deposit funds transferred from the US government agencies into your account. We will also be required to return the funds to the relevant organization. We would therefore like to ask you to please contact the Bangkok Bank branch where your account is maintained by March 31, 2009. With a Direct Deposit account, funds are deposited directly into your account without you needing to physically receive a cheque and deposit it at the bank, saving you time and enabling you to receive your funds faster. However, you can only withdraw funds from your Direct Deposit account using your passbook. Withdrawal by any other person, making transactions with an electronic card, or using any other channels is not allowed. Once you have received the funds in your Direct Deposit account, you can withdraw the money and deposit it to your savings account, from which you will be able to conveniently withdraw, transfer, or make other transactions via an ATM, Internet Banking, phone banking,or other channel. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and appreciate your cooperation on this matter. __________ In case you didn't quite follow, I had to go to the Bangkok Branch at which I originally opened my account - passport, passbook, and this letter in hand. This new Direct Deposit account will keep the same account number I already have, so I don't have to worry about something going wrong when direct deposits are made. It does, however, mean that now I have to also open another savings account. From now on, I will have to personally go to a Bangkok Bank branch office and have them transfer what is received in the Direct Deposit account to my new savings account if I want to be able to use online banking, an ATM card, or anything else. If I don't open a new savings account, then all I can do with the Direct Deposit account will be to make withdrawals via a bank teller. I will also have to create a whole new online banking account once I open the new savings account. The old one will retain my old account number, so that online banking account will become useless and eventually deleted, once they get around to it. So, I asked some obvious questions: 1. Do I have to notify any of the agencies that make direct deposits? Answer: No. Bangkok Bank takes care of that. 2. Since I'm doing this at Bangkok Bank's request, do I have to pay for a new ATM card (or Visa Electron card, as they call it here)? Answer: Yes, I'll have to pay for it. 3. Since I will have no access to this account online or by ATM, then how do I even know a deposit has been made? Answer: You can set up an SMS alert with Bangkok Bank. Whenever money is transferred to your Direct Deposit account, you will receive an SMS telling you the deposit has been made and for how much. It takes about a week before the SMS alerts will go into effect after you make the request. 4. Can I set up a similar SMS alert for the new regular savings account I'll have to open? Answer: No, they will only send an SMS alert when money is received from overseas into the Direct Deposit account. 5. Will my new savings account have a different account number? Answer: Yes, it will be a new account, completely separate from the Direct Deposit account. 6. Can I withdraw funds or make transfers into my new savings account at any Bangkok Bank branch? Answer: Yes. 7. There is a new Bangkok Bank branch much closer to my home. Can I open the new savings account at that branch? Answer: Yes, you can open the savings account at any branch, but make sure it is in the same province as the Direct Deposit account. If you open in a different province, then you'll be paying fees every time you do a transaction. 8. Can I make transfers from the Direct Deposit account to the savings account by telephone, to avoid having to actually go to the bank? Answer: No, you have to go yourself. 9. What happens if I'm sick, injured, hospitalized, or anything else that would prevent me from personally going to a branch office to retrieve the funds? How will I get my money? Answer: Bangkok Bank will allow you to designate someone to do it for you, but there must be a letter from your doctor. Those are the questions I thought of. If you have any other questions, let me know and I'll try to find out. If you receive funds by direct deposit into a Bangkok Bank account, then you can expect to receive the same letter and have to do the same thing. In other words, this is going to be a pain-in-the-ass. From now on, I'll have to maintain two passbooks for two different types of accounts and I'll have to personally go to the bank to do the same thing that has been done automatically all this time for years. Quote
Guest lvdkeyes Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I am glad I don't have money directly deposited into a Thai Bank. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 What a pain in the a** - and everywhere else! I wonder if this is going to be extended to other countries in due course. Quote
Gaybutton Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 I am glad I don't have money directly deposited into a Thai Bank. Even with this nonsense, I would still choose to do it this way. I might have to be inconvenienced now, but I'd much rather be able to go to a bank branch here than have to deal with anything overseas if problems arise or my ATM card is ever lost, stolen, damaged, or simply expires. The part that does have me angry, though, is this rule that you can't have online banking or even an ATM card with a Direct Deposit account. Next logical question - why not? I fail to see any reason for that. That's what will cause the major inconvenience. If I happen to be out of town when my money comes in, then I'll have to make sure I have my passbook and passport. Then I'll have to find a Bangkok Bank branch somewhere to be able to retrieve the funds. That might be especially interesting if I happen to be in another country at the time. Come to think of it, it will be inconvenient even if I'm in town. Now I'll have to personally go to the bank, rain or shine, and most likely be on a line, waiting for a teller, that stretches from here to Oxnard. And the teller will probably have two speeds . . . slow and stop, along with one personality characteristic . . . clueless! Can't have an ATM card or online banking with a Direct Deposit account? That aspect of it has earned a prominent spot on my "I Don't Get It" list. Quote
Guest lvdkeyes Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I find having my money go directly to my US bank more convenient for several reasons. I can withdraw money anywhere in the world from any ATM, people in the US can make deposits into my account, and I can do online banking checking my account from any computer, but I only use my own home pc for this purpose for safety reasons. Quote
Guest Astrrro Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 "I Don't Get It" list. think the usa gov doesn't want situations where friends of a dead person are withdrawing money from an atm. i thought there was a 10 fee for Bangkok Bank deposits that came thru ACH transfers? Quote
Bob Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I have not heard of any other bank that receives direct social security deposits making any similar rules. The Bank of Bangkok qualifies for the direct deposit, I believe, because they have a bank in New York City and it'd be my bet that these new rules are a result of some misinterpretation of the rules (that apply to all banks) issued by the US Treasury. The notion that a bank is required to refund to Treasury any amount paid through that bank until after the death or disability of the depositor is made known to the bank is rather ludicrous. But, again, I've heard of no other bank bitching about the rules so my guess this is a result of some misinterpretation by some staff lawyer with Bank of Bangkok. Nevertheless, a pain in the ass for you guys using Bank of Bangkok for your direct deposits of your social security benefits. Switching banks for deposits and absorbing atm fees almost sounds like less of a hassle. Quote
Gaybutton Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 Switching banks for deposits and absorbing atm fees almost sounds like less of a hassle. Unfortunately, as far as I know Bangkok Bank is the only Thai bank that has a branch in the USA. If you know of another one, please let us know. If another one exists, I would switch provided they don't have a similar idiotic rule. If someone at Bangkok Bank came up with this nonsense because of a misinterpretation of the actual regulations, then it would have been very simple to pick up a telephone, call the appropriate office in the USA, and simply ask for a clarification of the rules and making damned sure before imposing this on account holders. All I know is the system was working just fine all these years until I received that letter. It wasn't broke, but someone fixed it anyway. Leave it to the Thai way of doing things to come up with a set of rules that throws a monkey wrench into the whole works. If the idea behind this is, as Astrrro suggested, "the usa gov doesn't want situations where friends of a dead person are withdrawing money from an atm," then how, pray tell, would those friends have done that anyway? I don't know about anybody else, but I'm not in the habit of giving out my PIN to other people. If under this new system, all it takes is a letter from a doctor to designate someone to withdraw the funds for an account holder, then how much effort do they think it would take to find a Thai doctor willing to write such a letter, especially if some money exchanges hands? My favorite paragraph in the letter is the one that says, "With a Direct Deposit account, funds are deposited directly into your account without you needing to physically receive a cheque and deposit it at the bank, saving you time and enabling you to receive your funds faster." What the hell do they think people like me were doing in the first place? I had always used direct deposit. Quote
Guest Astrrro Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 One of these days I'm going to go down to the NYC branch of BKK Bank and try to figure some things out. What I'd like to find out is direct deposit free? If so, can I set up some direct deposits from one of my accounts. to BKK Bank? How does direct deposit differ from an ATM transfer? Quote
Bob Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 What I'd like to find out is direct deposit free? Yep, it's free (banks love the deal as they make money on the deposits by being able to loan out money). If so, can I set up some direct deposits from one of my accounts to BKK Bank? If you're talking about having your bank transfer money to your BKK Bank, you can do that but they'll charge you a wire transfer fee (my bank in the US charges me $40.00 every time I wire money over to SCB and that's regardless of how much money - same fee for $100.00 or $10,000.00. And, when you wire money, you need to be careful to designate that the funds are transferred by your home country bank in your home country's currency (in my case, dollars); otherwise, they'll switch the money to baht in your home country and you'll get killed (usually) on the rotten exchange rate for baht that your home country has. Additionally, your Thai bank usually charges some fee or doesn't quite give you the very best exchange rate you could get otherwise. If you're wiring a chunk once or twice a year, not that expensive. If you're wiring monthly smaller amounts, probably rather expensive. How does direct deposit differ from an ATM transfer? Two different animals. "Direct deposit" just refers to your home country social security or government pension being automatically wired to your home country bank (versus sending you a check in the mail). An "ATM" transaction is you using your card to withdraw money from whatever bank issued the card to you. There can be a fee (50 baht or so?) to use your ATM card especially in an ATM machine not owned by your bank. Some banks have no fees or very low fees but, with the banking crisis, I'd expect that to change for the worse (SCB never charged me before for certain things but they are this year). Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 And, when you wire money, you need to be careful to designate that the funds are transferred by your home country bank in your home country's currency Just a reminder: this is also essential advice for everyone using the lump sum retirement visa remittance. The funds have to be received here in Thailand in the overseas currency - not Baht. Quote
mahjongguy Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 - US Social Security is only paid through direct deposit. They stopped sending out checks a few years ago. - Most retirees living here keep at least one bank account in their home country. All things considered, I would recommend that monthly retirement payments (government or otherwise) be directed to your home country bank. Bringing money over 2 to 4 times a year via wire transfer is the best overall method of staying funded here (and of meeting the 3 month seasoning rule that applies to many of us). My US bank allows me to make a 45 second phone call to an automated system that will send dollars to a pre-designated Thai account for US$25. Other banks allow this via their online banking. - Americans overseas should be aware that they are required to file a form (TD F 90-22.1) with the US Treasury no later than June 30th of every year listing any and all overseas accounts. Quote
Guest Astrrro Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 How does direct deposit differ from an ATM transfer? OOPs, meant to say ACH transfer. Quote
Bob Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Just a reminder: this is also essential advice for everyone using the lump sum retirement visa remittance. The funds have to be received here in Thailand in the overseas currency - not Baht. Don't think I agree with that one. Just got my retirement (long-term) visa a few weeks ago and all they needed to see was a short letter from my bank (which only verified I was a depositor and had "x" amount on deposit on that day and did not contain any statement where the funds originated from) and a copy of the first and last page of my bank passbook (the last page showed no deposits and the first page showed an initial deposit of 20,000 baht but it doesn't show where it came from). I've heard that you somehow have to show funds you are using to buy a condo have to come here from overseas; but, frankly, I have no proof of that. Concerning the retirement visa amount, at least for me, there was no verification or even discussion about where it came from and there was nothing like that on the forms I filled out. I suspect it's the same story for the annual renewal - you just have to show 800,000 baht on account for the last 90 days and they don't ask/care where it came from. Presuming GB is doing that routine, I'm sure he can correct me there if I'm wrong. Quote
PattayaMale Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 In Los Angeles there are two Thai Banks: Kasikorn Bank on South Grand and Krung Thai Bank on Wilshire Blvd. New York Bangkok Bank in New York telephone number (212) 422-8200 Bank of Thailand (212) 750-0310 Krung Thai Bank(212) 832-5600 It may be worth spending a few baht to call or get an email address and ask the question to the bank in New York City. I don't understand the point of having a direct deposit account having to return the money to the US either. Once it is in my account, while I am alive, it is my money. I can understand where the bank would not be able to accept any more direct deposits after being notified of my death. Currently my Thai Friend has been told to go to my USA account, online, and transfer all my money to my US friend who will see he gets the money. This would be a good topic for the Expats Club to explore. By having an official explain the policies and different options. Also maybe they would be able to site the US regulation. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I suspect it's the same story for the annual renewal - you just have to show 800,000 baht on account for the last 90 days and they don't ask/care where it came from I did my renewal in BKK 3 weeks ago. I had to show that 800,000 had been in the account for 3 months AND provide confirmation it was remitted in overseas currency in one go. I thought this is the same for everyone going the annual remittance route. I also understand it is to prove you are not working illegally in the country. When I purchased the condo some years ago, those funds did indeed have to be remitted from overseas. Quote
Guest lvdkeyes Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I've heard that you somehow have to show funds you are using to buy a condo have to come here from overseas; but, frankly, I have no proof of that. My understanding is that you need to show that the money came into Thailand for the purpose of buying property so that you can take the money out of Thailand if/when you decide to sell. Quote
PattayaMale Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 My understanding is that you need to show that the money came into Thailand for the purpose of buying property so that you can take the money out of Thailand if/when you decide to sell. I believe you are correct. That is what I had to show when I sold my condo and moved the money out of Thailand. The baht was about 31 to the dollar. So exchanging the sale proceeds into dollars helped. When buying a condo it is very important to keep the Tor Sam (or what ever it is called). Then when you sell, just take those to the bank along with a copy of the sales agreement and copy of the transfer that shows tax was paid. It was very easy to do since I had the documents. Quote
2lz2p Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Question for GB - out of curiosity, did you inquire about creating a "new" account for the direct deposit (would require a change in direct deposit instructions for Social Security Administration), thus keeping your existing savings account the same as it has always been? Also, the following are some observations on some of the items posted: 4. Can I set up a similar SMS alert for the new regular savings account I'll have to open? Answer: No, they will only send an SMS alert when money is received from overseas into the Direct Deposit account. Bangkok Bank provides SMS messages for foreign deposits to your regular savings account - takes a bit to set up, but is available (I haven't bothered yet, but a close friend has set it up and has received SMS messages when funds he transferred from USA were deposited in his account). - US Social Security is only paid through direct deposit. They stopped sending out checks a few years ago. Social Security web site indicates that checks are still issued, but they encourage recipients to use direct deposit, DirectExpress Card (prepaid debit/credit type card - fees for int'l ATM use are too high, $3 US plus 3% conversion fee), or Electronic Transfer - ETA (accounts set up at participating banks). I don't understand the point of having a direct deposit account having to return the money to the US either. Once it is in my account, while I am alive, it is my money. I can understand where the bank would not be able to accept any more direct deposits after being notified of my death. Social Security website under Frequently Asked Questions explains that by law, a person is not entitled to social security benefits for the month in which they die - whether they die on the first or last day of that month, e.g., person dies on 28 June - the benefits they receive in July is for June. Thus, they would not be entitled to the June payment received in July. If the US bank receives notification of the death before receipt of the July deposit, they will return the funds. - Americans overseas should be aware that they are required to file a form (TD F 90-22.1) with the US Treasury no later than June 30th of every year listing any and all overseas accounts. I don't believe this is totally correct. The Instructions for completing the form state that the form must be filed if you have any financial interest, signature authority, or control over such account if the aggregate value of these financial accounts exceed $10,000 at any time during the calendar year. So long as your Thai bank account plus any other foreign accounts you may have does not exceed US $10,000 at any one time during the calendar year, no report is required -- of course, for those USA citizens that use the 800k Baht in the bank to qualify for the retirement extension, would meet the requirements to file the report. For those required to file, but say they "ain't going to do it" - the Privacy Act Notification on the form states: Civil and criminal penalties, including in certain circumstances a fine of not more than $500,000 and imprisonment of not more than five years, are provided for failure to file a report, supply information, and for filing a false or fraudulent report. As to the other Thai banks with a US presence, one would need to find out if they have an ACH number and would they provide the direct deposit service. Myself, my direct deposits are to my USA bank - I use INGDirect Internet bank (FDIC insured) to transfer funds - first from my account that receives my direct deposits (no fee for transfer to INGDirect). Second, I send an INGDirect "electric check" (no fee and can be to an account in any bank with an ACH number) to myself as payee, Bangkok Bank NY branch ACH number, and my Pattaya savings account number. It takes about 3 business days to arrive - the conversion from $US to Baht is done by Bangkok Bank in Thailand. The NY Branch charges from $-0- to $20 (depending on amount involved) and Bangkok Bank in Thailand charges 0.25% (minimum 200 Baht; maximum 500 Baht). Quote
Gaybutton Posted March 18, 2009 Author Posted March 18, 2009 Question for GB - out of curiosity, did you inquire about creating a "new" account for the direct deposit (would require a change in direct deposit instructions for Social Security Administration), thus keeping your existing savings account the same as it has always been? For a very simple reason I did not. That's because I'm still too young to be eligible to receive Social Security benefits. I have a few years to go before I'm eligible. Maybe I could have created a new account as the Direct Deposit account, but the bank letter does say, "In compliance with the US direct deposit program regulation, we need to request that you change your savings account to a Direct Deposit account." It says to change my savings account. It doesn't say anything about creating a new one. I also chose not to try because the payments I do receive were already set up to be deposited into the existing account. There will be no change in the routing number or account number, so I saw no reason to do anything other than to change the account type from a savings account to a direct deposit account, in accordance with the letter's instructions. That way I don't have to bother informing the sources of my income and I also don't have to worry about anybody screwing up the new numbers or other types of unforeseen "Murphy's Law" scenarios to arise. I have to open a second account with Bangkok Bank anyway if I want to be able to do ATM transactions, pay bills online, etc, so it might as well be a new savings account. I'll let that one be the one with new numbers. I do have accounts with other Thai banks, so I suppose I could elect not to open another savings account with Bangkok Bank, but it would mean I would have to physically carry the cash to another bank. All I would need is for a criminal to see me leaving the bank with a lot of cash. Thank you, no. I'll just have to start going to the bank when my money arrives and have them transfer from one account to the other. I suppose I could do it with a cashier's check, but that would be more bother than simply opening a new savings account, and cashier's checks aren't free. From among all the options, converting my existing savings account to a direct deposit account and then opening a new savings account seems to be the lesser of the evils. Quote
Guest Hedda Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I am more than a little confused by some of this discussion on direct deposit. The thread started off by quoting the Bangkok Bank's notice: "Bankok Bank understands that you have set up a normal savings account to receive funds transfer under direct deposit program of the United States government agencies through Bangkok Bank. The Direct deposit program of the United States government stipulates that in the event of a person receiving funds transferred from the US government dies or is declared by a court as of unable or of impaired ability, Bangkok Bank is required to hold the funds immediately after the death or court ruling, and return the funds to the US government." I read that language to mean that you have to be receiving funds from an agency of the US government in order for these "direct deposit" conditions to apply. Since Gaybutton says he is not old enough for Social Security, I assume he's getting some regular direct deposit payments from some other US government agency. Otherwise, it seems to me that none of these rules about having two separate bank accounts apply. Only direct deposits from the US government into a Bangkok Bank account trigger the need for two accounts. Am I missing something here ? Quote
Gaybutton Posted March 18, 2009 Author Posted March 18, 2009 Am I missing something here ? A couple of things perhaps. First, you're thinking in terms of logic and you're right. But 'logic' and 'Thailand' is virtually an oxymoron. Bangkok Bank is interpreting a US Government Agency to mean funds received from any government source within the United States, whether it be national, state, or local. We might not see it that way, but people like me have to deal with the fact that Bangkok Bank does see it that way. I complied because I don't want any trouble receiving funds. I do receive monthly income from those types of sources. Also, at this time of year, those who are expecting an income tax refund from IRS, for example, might have problems getting it if they don't comply. People receiving funds through sources such as veteran's benefits, federal retirement, teacher retirement programs, etc, could run into problems. In my case I prefer to comply rather than risk difficulty receiving funds. Also, I may not be eligible for Social Security just yet, but that day will come if I live long enough. So, if this is the way Bangkok Bank is going to handle it, I might as well get used to it. I don't see where I have much of a choice. The fact that the letter was addressed to me, and the phone calls that went back and forth, made it clear that my account was specifically targeted. I suppose I could try to fight it, but I don't see how fighting a losing battle would benefit me. Unfortunately, Bangkok Bank is in the driver's seat on this one. So, I'll have two accounts and I'll have to go to the bank once a month. I don't see any other way to handle it. Quote
mahjongguy Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I said " Americans overseas should be aware that they are required to file a form (TD F 90-22.1) with the US Treasury no later than June 30th of every year listing any and all overseas accounts.". 2lz2p said "I don't believe this is totally correct. The Instructions for completing the form state that the form must be filed if you have any financial interest, signature authority, or control over such account if the aggregate value of these financial accounts exceed $10,000 at any time during the calendar year. So long as your Thai bank account plus any other foreign accounts you may have does not exceed US $10,000 at any one time during the calendar year, no report is required -- of course, for those USA citizens that use the 800k Baht in the bank to qualify for the retirement extension, would meet the requirements to file the report. " Yes, it's $10,000 or more total. I didn't think to mention it because I can't imagine living here (with or without using the 800k method) and not keeping at least $10,000 in a Thai bank. It wouldn't make sense. Just as one example, if you have an accident and need emergency surgery, you might think it's okay because you have insurance, but unless the hospital has a direct-pay relationship with your insurer you will need to pay up front. How quickly can you, while in an emergency situation, arrange a wire transfer? How much per day can you pull with your foreign ATM card? This happened to a friend here (who has a good US insurer) and Bangkok Pattaya insisted on 200,000 baht up front. Being late on a Saturday, it was tricky enough for him to arrange just getting the cash from his Thai accounts. If all his money was overseas it would have been impossible. Quote
Gaybutton Posted March 18, 2009 Author Posted March 18, 2009 Yes, it's $10,000 or more total. I didn't think to mention it because I can't imagine living here (with or without using the 800k method) and not keeping at least $10,000 in a Thai bank. It wouldn't make sense. We're getting a bit off topic here, but it can't hurt to talk about hospital care for a moment. I'm happy for you if you're rich enough to be able to afford to have $10,000 worth of liquid cash readily available in a Thai bank. Unfortunately, not everybody has that kind of money. If you choose to live here, you have to do the best you can with what you've got. Alternatives to Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital are available for those who can't afford it. That hospital is the most expensive in the Pattaya area. For those who don't have so much, there are alternatives and far less expensive places to go, including Pattaya Memorial Hospital, P.I.C. Hospital, or even Banglamung Hospital. I understand the Samitivej Hospital in Si Racha is excellent. See: http://www.samitivej.co.th/sriracha/aboutus_en.aspx An excellent hospital is the Queen Sirikit Hospital in Sattahip. You won't have the luxurious accommodations that Bangkok-Pattaya can offer, but the competence of the doctors and staff is just as good and, in my opinion, often better. You won't be anywhere near as comfortable, but you'll at least have just as good a chance of coming out alive and well, and for a hell of a lot less money. See: http://www.pattayacityexpatsclub.com/modul...cle&sid=937 Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 We're getting a bit off topic here, but it can't hurt to talk about hospital care for a moment Anyone have any advice on good hospitals in Bangkok that do not have the same level of charges as the usual expat ones - Bumrungrad, BNH etc.? Quote
