Report about repatriating looted Asian artefacts

[fedssocr]

 

And part 2 focuses on Cambodia and Thailand

 

[vinapu]

Repatriation is fine and just but this is not black and white issue as many of those things would be lost of destroyed.

Banyan Buddha's are bitter reminder that being old and precious is not blanket insurance  preventing destruction

 

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

Repatriation is fine and just but this is not black and white issue as many of those things would be lost of destroyed.

Banyan Buddha's are bitter reminder that being old and precious is not blanket insurance  preventing destruction

That was partly the argument for many stolen artefacts being stolen in the first place by colonial looters - that they would be safer and better looked after in Museums in the colonial countries. And sorry @vinapu, I regard that as total rubbish! What right did colonial powers have to steal anything from the countries they colonised. They were nothing but thieves out for personal glory - as so many books by so many experts now agree. Lord Elgin stole the "marbles" from The Parthenon in Athens "to protect them from being destroyed by The Turks." (The Turks in that age ruled Greece). That is what he told a Parliamentary Commission in 1801, but in prising some of the artefects from The Parthenon, Elgin's agents inflicted considerable damage to them. He always stated he had a letter from the Turks agreeing to his taking them as he was in the British foreign service. But Elgin was not an official diplomat and had no right to claim them for the British Crown.

The British government eventually paid £350,000 for the marbles which ended up in the British Museum where they are displayed today. Did any of that money find it's way to Greece? Of course not. Lord Elgin used it to pay off his creditors! In 2013 British Prime Minister David Cameron stated he was totally against "returnism"! So much for official British policy!

Another example. The Koh-i-Noor diamond is now located in the crown which the British Queen wore at her husband's recent coronation. But it had been tactfully removed prior to the public ceremony. This was a result of embarrassment of how the diamond came to be in the royal collection. It was originally mined in India, for centuries the only country in the world where diamonds were mined. In 1739 it was stolen by the Persian ruler, Nader Shah, in a mass looting of gold and treasure that left tens of thousands of Indians dead. In 1813 by which time the British East India Company held sway in India, the diamond was finally returned to the Sikh ruler Ranjit Singh.

Noted Indian historians Anita Anand and William Dalrymple wrote an excellent book 5 years ago Koh-I-Noor: The History of the World's Most Infamous Diamond. In this they finally unearthed how Britain came to "own" this most precious of gems. 

"For the British, that symbol of prestige and power was irresistible. If they could own the jewel of India as well as the country itself, it would symbolize their power and colonial superiority. It was a diamond worth fighting and killing for, now more than ever. When the British learned of Ranjit Singh’s death in 1839, and his plan to give the diamond and other jewels to a sect of Hindu priests, the British press exploded in outrage. “The richest, the most costly gem in the known world, has been committed to the trust of a profane, idolatrous and mercenary priesthood,” wrote one anonymous editorial. Its author urged the British East India Company to do whatever they could to keep track of the Koh-i-Noor, so that it might ultimately be theirs."

And that is precisely how Britain came to steal the diamond. In 1849 the British imprisoned one of Singh's heirs, 10 year old Juleep Singh, and his mother. In return for their freedom, they forced him to sign over the Koh-i-Noor diamond. The boy duly signed. The diamond was given to Queen Victoria in London. To suggest that this was anything other than outright blatant theft is utter nonsense! And further to suggest that Britain should still keep it is monstrous! 

I give high praise to many of Hong Kong's top Chinese businessmen. Many have been buying back priceless Chinese artefacts stolen by western powers and then donating them back to China. As anyone who has visited China knows, museums like the Shanghai Museum in People's Square are world class facilities.

To suggest that stolen artefects would today be destroyed by their return as the Bamyan Buddhas (I cannot find any reference to Banyan Buddhas) were by the Taliban is a completely false argument, sorry to say. These Buddhas had not in fact been stolen!

[vinapu]

Surely colonial powers had any rights to loot them but that was replaced but all looters old friend - might and local corruption.

They didn't t have any right to keep it but they will umtil might will be on their side.

I m not supporting looting but just stating fact.

How we handle legally obtained art pieces both with  money stolen from laborers by fat capitalists.? 

What right Turks have to Haghia Sophia? 

They did not built it neither for 925 years dud not pray there. But now they do

[PeterRS]

Yes, I agree entirely. Colonial looters were just one group. I am sure that each country with looted artefacts had plenty of locals who were very happy to steal and loot for the cash provided by rich fat cats both from their own and other countries.

But somewhere we have to draw a line. We can not rewrite basic history. Nor can we change basic historical facts. You mention Haghia Sofia. But that is not an artefact. That is a building in a specific place that was built at a specific time. Sure, it was built as a Christian Church by a Christian Emperor. And the Byzantine Christians were able to hold on to it for almost a millennium. Indeed, they might have held on to it longer had it not been a result of the attempt by other Christians led by the octogenarian Archbishop Dandolo of Venice during the Fourth Crusade, a man now despised by history. While answering the call to help Constantinople, this wily thief changed course and had his fleet sail up to the city state. The end result was not only his massively looting the city but, by so weakening its defences, rendering it far more vulnerable to later attack by the Ottoman Turks. It's no accident that since the early years of the 13th century many of Constantinople's treasures are to be found adorning Venice! So much for Christian against Christian. But that's another subject!

Since you mention it, on the two occasions I went round Hagia Sophia it was a dedicated Museum. We all have the ultra nationalist Turk leader Erdogan to thank for changing its status back to a mosque. But this brings us to another point. Modern day Turkey is the legitimate ruler of Istanbul. The leader of Turkey made the change. Does the world have a right to mandate that the ruler of a country does not have a right to do what he might say he has been elected to do? Another long subject!

Going back to looted treasures. I believe the world as a whole has to start somewhere. So nations of the world should be the first to show an example. In the colonial era lasting several centuries, they were by far and away the largest looters and thieves. Their governments at least have an electorate behind them which may eventually take up this cause. It's useless to expect the fat cats to start the ball rolling. Indeed, I doubt if anything other than very large bags of cash would persuade them. So that's just a lost cause. Nations, though, are another matter altogether.

[vinapu]

No it,s not list cause. Like everything in history reclamation of looted artefacts needs to wait for it,s time. 

Jews waited  2000 years for their state , Greece may wait till 2341 to get Elgin,S maRbles back.

Dandolo was not archbishop , he was Venetian Doge( spelling? )

No man is despised by history, only by those who write her. Look at Chengis Khan, genocidal ruler and conqueror , now adoring pedestals and banknotes

[alvnv]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

Jews waited  2000 years for their state , Greece may wait till 2341 to get Elgin,S maRbles back.

I’m sure they’d rather have Constantinople back. 

 

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

Look at Chengis Khan, genocidal ruler and conqueror , now adoring pedestals and banknotes

One man’s hero…

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

Dandolo was not archbishop , he was Venetian Doge( spelling? )

I stand rightly corrected, thank you. Dandolo was elected Doge at the age of 72 when already aged and blind. He was 84 when he led the Fourth Crusade and looted Constantinople. He died there the following year and was buried in Hagia Sophia. His tomb was subsequently destroyed by the Ottomans.

[PeterRS]

There is a timely article on today's BBC website. Although it refers to art stolen from Jews prior to and during WWII, this particular painting ended up in Japan. About to go to auction, it was spotted. It has now been returned to Poland.

Quote

When the Nazis occupied Poland in World War Two, many of the country's priceless pieces of art were stolen.

One of those was Madonna with Child, a 16th Century painting attributed to Italian Alessandro Turchi. A Nazi official who oversaw the looting of art included the painting on a list of hundreds taken from occupied Poland. But the painting is finally returning home, after being discovered in Japan and handed over to Polish authorities during a ceremony in Tokyo this week.It is one of 600 looted artworks that Poland has managed to successfully bring home, but more than 66,000 so-called war losses are yet to be recovered . . .The painting reappeared in the 1990s, when it was sold at a New York auction.It was due to be auctioned in January last year, but the sale was halted after Polish authorities spotted the piece. Once it was proven to be the looted painting, the auction house and the painting's owner agreed to return it to Poland. An official handing-over ceremony took place in Tokyo on Wednesday.Polish art historian Natalia Cetera said the return of masterpieces like Madonna with Child help restore pride in the country's art heritage. Poland had Rembrandt and Raphael pieces stolen, as well as internationally recognised Polish masterpieces, she said . . . "So whenever there is this situation where the artworks come back to Polish collections, you feel proud because it shows the importance of Polish collections that is sometimes forgotten," Ms Cetera told the BBC.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65779417

 

[fedssocr]

Not sure why those first videos from Al Jazeera were removed. But this story seems to be making a lot of waves. Josh Gates' Discovery Channel show Expedition Unknown had a several part series on it. And here's one from ABC Australia

 

[PeterRS]

A wonderfully inspiring vdo.

Greed is such a powerful motive. It is not just the massive amount of national treasures looted from countries. There is a very large and thriving market for stolen art trsasures. There was a television prgramme recently about the heist at the Garner Museum in Boston in 1990. With apparent ease, two thieves got into the gallery at night and made off with 12 paintings and one artefact, including one of the rare 34 Vermeers then in existence, several works by Rembrandt and others by Degas and Manet. None has ever been recovered. The value today is probably somewhere near $1 billion. Given the crude way in which some of the near priceless paintings were cut form their frames, it is viewed unlikely that they were stolen "to order" by a dodgy collector. But despite the involvement of the FBI over three decades and a $10 million reward, the artworks have vanished.

Some believe they may simply have been destroyed by being badly stored. But no one knows. Over time many major artworks have been stolen from museums, incuding the Mona Lisa, a Picasso, a Rembrandt, 2 Edvard Munch paintings and Goya's Portrait of the Duke of Wellington which was famously included in a short scene in the first James Bond movie. All were eventually located and returned. The Garner Museum heist remains the largest of all - and the most mysterious.