Another unlucky Brit denied insurance claim in Thailand

[reader]

From Pattaya Mail

Josh Richardson is the latest among the 7 current tragedies of British holidaymakers in Thailand appealing for charity funds after a serious accident.

Holidaymaker Josh Richardson, from Lancashire, lies in a Bangkok hospital after a motorbike accident several weeks ago in which he suffered substantial head injuries. His Chorley family says that an initial operation to make him well enough to return to UK by business class travel was not successful, so he now needs a full intensive care team onboard which would cost around 170,000 pounds or around 7 million baht.

he total cash required is in excess of 200,000 pounds as the Thai hospital requires payment and there are add-on costs such as the family travelling to Thailand. So far the Go Fund Me crowdfunding platform has raised just under 28,000 pounds. Friends and family in UK are also organizing separate fundraising events. Josh is a well-known local figure he played for the Bradford Bulldogs ice hockey team in his university days.

A hospital spokesperson said Josh’s travel insurance company was refusing to make a contribution as there was no evidence Josh was wearing a helmet at the time of the accident. Failing to take “reasonable care” or “defaulting on the host country’s traffic regulations” are common grounds for denying accident claims. But there is some suggestion that Josh’s helmet disappeared at the crash site. It is not known whether an alcohol test was administered as part of the post-accident bureaucracy.

ABG Insurance, not involved in the case, said crowdfunding charity appeals are now inevitable in cases where cover is denied. But they rarely raise more than 20 percent of the amounts required. The general advice was to provide full details on the internet site and to provide regular updates. “Public interest soon wanes unless fresh information on the internet is provided on a regular basis.”

[forky123]

Unlucky? Should read another incredibly stupid Brit. Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet, or other protective gear, on a motorcycle is an idiot. 

[reader]

Thankfully, the rest of us never do stupid things when were on holiday in LOS.😉

[forky123]

2 hours ago, reader said:

Thankfully, the rest of us never do stupid things when were on holiday in LOS.😉

For me, riding a scooter or Motorcycle without a helmet is never one of them. 

[vinapu]

14 hours ago, forky123 said:

Unlucky? Should read another incredibly stupid Brit. Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet, or other protective gear, on a motorcycle is an idiot. 

not that you don't have a point but considering circumstances you comment reads bit harsh

[vinapu]

11 hours ago, forky123 said:

For me, riding a scooter or Motorcycle without a helmet is never one of them. 

I wish  I could say the same but at least I'm not Brit

[PeterRS]

14 hours ago, forky123 said:

Unlucky? Should read another incredibly stupid Brit. Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet, or other protective gear, on a motorcycle is an idiot. 

I have to put myself in the idiot category, I never used to take mortorcy taxis but the traffic around my area in Bangkok is back to as bad as pre-covid levels and a motorcy can take me to the neartest MRT station in less about 4 minutes when a metered taxi can easily take 20. Like many motorcy passengers, I don't have a helmet. Perhaps with their drivers having to be registered, accidents are less likely. But the article above makes me re-think the need to get a helmet. 

[forky123]

 

4 hours ago, vinapu said:

not that you don't have a point but considering circumstances you comment reads bit harsh

What's harsh is giving your loved ones and family the job of raising £200k and getting you home because you were too stupid to wear a helmet.

[reader]

I don't think anyone, including the victim, doubts the wisdom of wearing head protection. I've used a motor bike for short trips and have never worn one. I don't even recall being offered one. I believe we all take risks--in one form or another--in our behavior when on holiday.

I just don't see what's to be gained by calling a man fighting for his life stupid.

[forky123]

19 minutes ago, reader said:

I don't think anyone, including the victim, doubts the wisdom of wearing head protection. I've used a motor bike for short trips and have never worn one. I don't even recall being offered one. I believe we all take risks--in one form or another--in our behavior when on holiday.

I just don't see what's to be gained by calling a man fighting for his life stupid.

I also don't see the benefit of someone calling him unlucky and begging others for money, but hey ho, here we are.

There are risks we take because we understand the risk and either have the risk within our own capabilities or can mitigate it. Then there are risks like not wearing a helmet where literally everyone around you has an impact on that risk. I've ridden motorcycles for decades, I mitigate the increased risk of riding one by wearing appropriate protective gear, taking advanced riding courses and always riding defensively. I still also know that can all be undone by another road user not paying attention and some risk still exists. 

[caeron]

 

Riding without a helmet is foolish. Since none of us were at the crash, none of us know if that is true.

And if stupidity were fatal, humanity would have disappeared as a species long ago.

[reader]

50 minutes ago, forky123 said:

I've ridden motorcycles for decades, I mitigate the increased risk of riding one by wearing appropriate protective gear, taking advanced riding courses and always riding defensively. I still also know that can all be undone by another road user not paying attention and some risk still exists. 

You're to be admired for your logical foresight. No one would debate that.

But we can't go back in time and make Josh Richardson whole again. His family is indeed begging friends and strangers to come to his rescue. We can't can't change that. What we can change is how we respond to this crisis in the young man's life.

[Mavica]

It's easy to be critical of the individual we're discussing.  Initially, reading the OP - I was (critical).  However, hindsight gives each of us 20-20 vision. 

What we know about the incident is limited in scope and provided in newspaper reports which may or may not be an accurate portrayal.  Was he wearing head protection?  There seems to be uncertainty about that point.  Maybe / probably he wasn't.  He did pay for and obtain travel insurance. 

Think about it, though:  It's probably true that a miniscule percentage of persons who purchase travel insurance read through the fine print or understand what is or isn't covered if a claim arises.  Would he have acted similarly (not wearing head protection, if that's what happened) knowing his insurance wouldn't protect him / provide coverage?  Only he knows. 

Each of us reading the discussion has probably engaged in behavior that's considered risky when we travel.  Many of us (probably most of us) act spontaneously.  I've been guilty of that behavior and will probably act without thinking things through in the future.  Gay men aren't the only individuals who may act without forethought. 

I'm not inclined to contribute to the gofundme collection for this individual, but I do wish him speedy recovery.  

[PeterRS]

One of the UK newspapers informs readers he was riding a moped in the early hours of the morning to get some food and had just arrived after 16 hours of travel on a bus to get to the island where it seems the accident happened. There are implications he was tired. There is an allegation that perhaps his helmet was stolen. No other details/suggestions are provided. Other questions that hopefully will eventually be provided. Might he have had a helmet but not fastened the strap? What was the nature of the accident? Did it involve another vehicle? How long did it take for him to receive medical treatment after the accident? We'll probably never find out. Like others, I wish him the best.

Also like others have stated, read the small print in your travel policy and make sure you know the local laws regarding your activities whilst abroad. Thai law is very clear: drivers on motorcycles AND their passengers must wear helmets. As we all know, this is usually not observed by passengers (mea culpa!) But presumably if as a passenger the motorcycle I was riding was in an accident and I required medical treatment, the medical costs would not be covered by insurance.

[caeron]

 

My father was a doctor in the Air Force for much of his career. All doctors had to pull ER duty. 

He made me promise that I would never ride a motorcycle because of all the airmen he saw in his ER. I kept my promise except once( he was hot. AIDS took him like so many others).

I don't want to trust a mode of transportation that if other people fuck up, you die. Trusting other people not to fuck up is a bad bet, I think.

[reader]

It's worth noting that the article's author, Barry Kenyon, used the word "unlucky" in the context of Richardson becoming the second British citizen to have his accident coverage denied by a Thai insurance company within a short period of time. He was not necessarily implying that the circumstances of the accident were unlucky for the victim.

Perhaps this old British proverb better applies in this case: There but for the grace of God goes I.

[forky123]

The various articles I've seen have all been very careful not to mention which insurance company it is. Do we know? The gofundme is up to around £35k at the moment. 

[PeterRS]

When reading various sites yesterday morning, I recall one major company was named. However, even using my computer's history function, I cannot now find that information so i will not mention it. I did turn up information on another roughly similar accident involving and Englishman which occurred on Ko Tao in January. There the unfortunate scooter driver had crashed into a tree. He did have an annual travel policy from Lloyds Bank although given his injuries it would seem that perhaps he was not wearing a helmet. But he had been out of the UK for 31 days and the limit on his policy for any one trip was 30 days. Again insurance cover was denied. Small print!

https://bangkokjack.com/2023/01/08/travel-insurance-thailand-crash/

Three weeks ago The Bangkok Post reported that out of 20,000 deaths on the roads in Thailand, 74% were of motorcycle drivers. It adds that Thailand's roads are the deadliest in the region and among the ten most dangerous in the world.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/2528069/motorbike-death-toll-a-growing-crisis

[forky123]

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

When reading various sites yesterday morning, I recall one major company was named. However, even using my computer's history function, I cannot now find that information so i will not mention it. I did turn up information on another roughly similar accident involving and Englishman which occurred on Ko Tao in January. There the unfortunate scooter driver had crashed into a tree. He did have an annual travel policy from Lloyds Bank although given his injuries it would seem that perhaps he was not wearing a helmet. But he had been out of the UK for 31 days and the limit on his policy for any one trip was 30 days. Again insurance cover was denied. Small print!

https://bangkokjack.com/2023/01/08/travel-insurance-thailand-crash/

Three weeks ago The Bangkok Post reported that out of 20,000 deaths on the roads in Thailand, 74% were of motorcycle drivers. It adds that Thailand's roads are the deadliest in the region and among the ten most dangerous in the world.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/2528069/motorbike-death-toll-a-growing-crisis

That number is horrendous. I'd be interested in seeing what proportion of that 15000 were head injuries through not wearing a helmet. 

[forky123]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:49 AM, caeron said:

I don't want to trust a mode of transportation that if other people fuck up, you die. Trusting other people not to fuck up is a bad bet, I think.

Other people don't even need to fuck up when you are on a bike. They just need to act differently to what you are expecting. If you ride defensively, with full protection and using advanced rider practices, you are still left open to the unexpected. Something that would be a very minor shunt in a car due to its inherent stability can easily escalate into a fatal crash om a motorcycle or scooter. Given that nearly everyone in Thailand rides without protection, very aggressively and squeezing through the smallest gaps on all sides of vehicles often while texting their friends, it's a recipe for disaster. 

[reader]

The following accident is all too typical of some of the fatal accidents that occur in Thailand. It involves a wealthy hi-so driving too fast (and in this case, reportedly intoxicated) who slams into a motorbike. As has been mentioned by posters above, even safe drivers can become victims as did the two Thais on their motorbike. It will be interesting if the sedan's operator ever suffers the consequences of the law.

From Pattaya News

Pattaya Couple Tragically Passes Away in Crash with Sedan

A Thai couple lost their lives after colliding their motorbike with a sedan on a Pattaya road last night, April 6th.

Sawang Boriboon rescue workers responded to an accident report at 8 PM on a road in front of Khao Mai Kaew temple in Pattaya. Upon arriving at the scene, they discovered a black Mitsubishi Mirage sedan and a black Honda PCX motorbike that had collided, resulting in severe damage to both vehicles.

Unfortunately, the rescuers found two individuals, Mr. Santisuk Sae-tan, 31, and Ms. Chatchawan Kangwanwuthikul, 31, lying on the road with serious injuries. Despite the rescue workers’ best efforts, the victims passed away at the scene. The rescuers contacted the victims’ relatives, who said that they were a couple.

The police arrived shortly after and questioned the driver of the sedan, Mr. Thamnanab Matmooltri, 64. The officers reported that Thamnanab appeared to be intoxicated, so they took him to the police station for an alcohol test. The authorities suspect that Thamnanab was travelling at high speed and lost control, resulting in the collision with the victims.

[PeterRS]

The accident noted by @reader is so reminiscent on the one in 2010 when a hi-so teenager without a licence and using her mobile phone crashed at speed into the back of a minibus on the Don Mueang tollway. The van was pushed over the side of the road and crashed on to the road below killing 9 and severely injuring 7 others - most students and faculty members at Thammasat University. Thais were outraged when a photo appeared in the media of the teenager texting on her phone at the side of her crashed car.

Photo: Bangkok Post

This 16-year old should have been jailed for several years. However, being one of the hi-so set, she was given only 3 years with this later reduced to just 2. But she did not even have to serve any time. Because of her "co-operation" with the authorities, the sentence was suspended for 3 years. She then had the gall to appeal the verdict on the grounds of "lack of intent." That was thrown out by the Supreme Court in 2015. Last I heard is that the van driver's lawyers began a Court action on behalf of those killed for 120 million Baht in damages. As a result of the girl's family lawyers constantly raising ridiculous issues. the amount was finally knocked down to 19.8 million.  One of these nonsensical arguments in the Court papers states "she is from the Thephasadin Na Ayudhya family which has done good for the country," and clearly this had some effect on the judges. As of July 2019, the victims had received neither cash nor an apology.

The teenager, by then 25, was already married to a former National Legislative Assembly member. Presumably that makes her even more untouchable! She and her family are clearly seen by most Thais as a total disgrace! As one of the famly's lawyers said to the mother of a doctor killed in the crash, "You want some cash, then keep fighting."

 

PS: After this post, I discovered that the family of the girl finally handed over a cheque for 42.54 million Baht in August 2019. This was made up of the settlement amount 25 million to the next of kin of those killed and injured plus legal fees and interest.

[reader]

A point PeterRS discussed above.

From Pattaya Mail

Small print dooms Brits’ travel insurance in Thailand

By Barry Kenyon

This year looks like becoming a record-breaker for badly injured Brits who are stranded in Thailand and unable to pay their medical bills. Whilst the British foreign office and even the Tourist Association of Thailand thunder away at the importance of buying accident and illness cover, the reality is that most travel insurance is not designed to cover life-saving operations or expensive repatriation. Total bills are typically GBP 100,000 and much more if an air evacuation service is needed.

The Association of British Insurers says that 17 percent of all overseas claims are rejected, mostly through lack of documentation, and adds that the average payout for successful claims is just over GBP 1,000. In other words, insurers are mainly paying out on small issues such as lost luggage or booking cancellations rather than medical emergencies. The award-winning blog Travelbunny stresses that most failures come down to the small print in the policies which is there to protect the funds of the insurance companies rather than you.

A review of charity crowdfunding sites, notably GoFundMe, reveals that no fewer than 23 Brits (or their families) have appealed for cash in the past six months to pay for traumatic incidents in Thailand and/or to fund repatriation. Most cases involved traffic accidents, usually on motorbikes or mopeds, with falling from buildings and being mugged the runners-up. The amounts requested in public appeals ranged from GBP 25,000 to GBP 300,000 with the average income received being around 10 percent of the advertised target. At best, charity crowdfunding is a peripheral partner rather than a principal funder.

The reasons for failed insurance policies are sometimes specified in crowdfunding entreaties. In 10 detailed traffic accidents, five injured Brits were refused cover because they were not wearing a crash helmet, two were relying on British driving licences (only international or Thai-issued are lawful here), two were participating in hazardous sports (elephant trekking and bungee jumping) and one had had been out of the UK for more than 30 days. Some reports were ambiguous, for example “Amex let me down” or “repatriation not allowed”.

Not surprisingly, not a single GoFundMe appeal mentioned alcohol or narcotics as an insurance denial reason – even though most of the road accidents occurred late at night. Some Thai hospitals are reluctant to perform such as tests as they don’t want to ruin the chances of a successful insurance payout. However, insurers in a big claim will want clear evidence there was no alcohol or substance abuse. The warning clauses most used in the small print are “must take reasonable care” or “must observe national laws”. For example, it is technically compulsory in Thailand for back seat car passengers to wear safety belts which, of course, creates issues when they have not been fitted.

nformal surveys in Thailand suggest that only about half of incoming tourists have any kind of insurance. Of those who do, most rely on travel insurance which may charge them five percent of the total holiday cost. Apart from being aware of the small print, the best advice is probably to stay away from renting a vehicle at all costs. If something nasty does occur, you can be assured your insurance company will leave no stone unturned. That’s guaranteed.

[PeterRS]

16 hours ago, reader said:

it is technically compulsory in Thailand for back seat car passengers to wear safety belts which, of course, creates issues when they have not been fitted.

That entire Barry Kenyon article is a sober warning that should be mandatory reading for all potential tourists. But I wonder how many, including residents, are aware of the back seat seatbelt law? Very few, I suspect. As a regular passenger in Bangkok, about two weeks ago I heard from one driver - who himself was not wearing his own belt (very unusual in my experience) - that "no one bothers with belts in the back seats." 

It's obviously one of these laws almost impossible to police because of the dark tinted windows. Discovery is only likely in the event of an accident. Although I have admitted to not wearing a helmet when taking a motorcy taxi, I do wear seat belts as a taxi passenger. This is no doubt the result of an experience on a business trip to California and what was luckily only a mild crash on Highway 1 when I was a back seat passenger not wearing the belt.

In Hong Kong the wearing of belts became mandatory around the mid-1990s and the public was given just two short weeks grace to get used to the law. Thereafter passengers AND drivers would be fined. To be fair, dark windows were not common in HK 3 decades ago and it was much easier to police the law. The reality of having to go to a police station to pay fines soon had everyone using the belts.

[forrestreid]

I remember about 20 years ago, when I first started thinking about going to Thailand, and I started reading the weekly column on the Stickman Thai travel advice website

 

In his news roundup section, he frequently had a story from a western newspaper about a tourist (usually a young British male) who was stuck in a Thai hospital after being in a motorbike crash, or a water-sports accident.  At that time, the typical situation seemed to be that they had no travel insurance.

 

Stickman often used to tut-tut over this and bemoan the fact that so many tourists came to Thailand without travel insurance.

 

Flash forward twenty years and there are still links in the Stickman column to news stories about people stuck in Thailand after having catastrophic  accidents, and relatives starting GoFundMe pages, etc.

 

But now you find that the typical tourist profiled on such stories did indeed have travel insurance, except the insurance companies have refused to pay out, for the reasons outlined in the posts above.

 

In many cases, the guys affected are hardly out of their teens. Perhaps not having the life experiences of some of the posters above about how you can get into sticky situations very quickly in a foreign country.

 

I think travel and insurance companies should be forced to emphasize these issues to people buying travel insurance for the first time. 

I remember on one occasion when I booked a flight to Thailand with a travel agency. I was asked if I wanted to book travel insurance with them also, and I said I did. As I’d heard the stories, I asked about being insured to travel on a motorcycle. The young woman working at the travel agency told me I would be covered, presuming I had the requisite driving license (no mention was made that I would need an international one).

When I asked about if I was a passenger on a motorbike taxi, she became a bit perplexed and after a bit of humming and hawing suggested that this would be covered by the motorbike taxi drivers public liability insurance!

Perhaps she wasn’t that well informed about the likelihood of getting money from your motorbike taxi drivers insurance in Thailand.

I’ve now got multi-trip travel insurance. I just looked at the terms and conditions, and I can’t find any mention of a motorbike, although I did find a general provision saying that the policy will be invalidated if I carry out any “reckless” action

I imagine the likelihood more than 1% of 18 to 30 year-olds knowing what their coverage really is, even if you have insurance, when arriving in Thailand is probably zero.

However, I am sure the insurance companies have a little appetite to clarify these things, quick and all as they are to take the young peoples money.