Is Indicting Trump A Good Idea?

[Moses]

10 hours ago, floridarob said:

And why you didn't answer the last question with the photo of Trump

It is clear: because he is not a Minister of Health. Oh he is? 

[Moses]

Speaking about Trump, my question is: why nation of 330+ mln citizens so enjoying fight of two freaks? 

One is orange clown and populist, and probably has dirty hands, second one is grandpa out of mind, who only on last week twice told in public speeches what US is fighting with Russia in Iraq, who call PM of India as PM of China at next day, who just declared what he is against abortion "as catholic".

Do you remember, what winner of this fight will have card with nuclear codes in his pocket for next 4 years?

 

 

[forky123]

You're full of questions about things with pretty obvious answers yet you never answer anything yourself, merely switch to a different BS question. 

[floridarob]

6 hours ago, Moses said:

second one is grandpa out of mind

I hope I'm alive at his age, never mind messing up a few works, remember he was dyslectic and public speaking in front of people isn't easy, Make a video of you reading a speech and not flubbing , then post it...we'll critique you 😆 

I know Trump makes public speaking look so easy, lmao

[Mavica]

7 hours ago, floridarob said:

I know Trump makes public speaking look so easy, lmao

Yes, admirers of former President Trump may have forgotten his often demonstrated inability to pronounce simple words from the English / American vocabulary.  Take the time to look at this clip:

 

[Moses]

Quote

Yes, admirers of former President Trump may have forgotten his often demonstrated inability to pronounce simple words from the English / American vocabulary.

And how it changes abilities of Biden?

330-mln country facing the race of 2 worst in history candidates on president's chair, just because their parties think they are the best candidates to win.

[Pete1111]

On 6/19/2023 at 4:13 PM, stevenkesslar said:

Barr has been surprisingly refreshing to listen to.   For many liberals he is still kind of a fascist himself.  But what is helpful about him right now is he is bending over backwards to say there is something called "the law".   And it is not the same as politics or partisanship.  And this idea that the law means one thing for Republicans, and another thing for Democrats - which is what Republicans are having a huge pity party about - is just not the truth.  Period.  The law is the law.  And Trump's former AG knows something about the law.  Period.

That probably explains Barr being precise in saying that whatever would have to be proved in court on J6 is not the same as what has to be proved about Trump obstructing justice with the military and nuclear documents. 

I'm not a lawyer.  But I suspect Barr is on target in arguing that it would be hard to prove in court that Trump wanted a violent riot.  Or he specifically wanted people to beat the shit out of cops.  Or he specifically wanted them to kill Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi.  Or even that he specifically wanted some kind of revolution.  To use Barr's words, as much as I view lying about losing an election and trying to subvert democracy as the bigger crime, it is probably legally correct that none of what Trump did on J6 makes him "toast,"  legally.  Whereas on obstructing justice by keeping military and nuclear documents, Trump is "toast," as Barr said.  A lawyer like him would probably know.

In @Lucky's defense, the indictment he was referring to is Bragg's case.  One can certainly argue that, in retrospect, all it did was draw support to Trump and help him raise money.  Kudos to Paul Ryan and John Bolton, two more lifelong conservatives who are loudmouths about this.  Ryan on CBS just referred to the Bragg case as "petty."  But he made a big point about how Trump fucking with the government to treat military and nuclear secrets as his own personal records is just wrong.  And illegal.  Bolton pointed out that the DOJ or anyone should put pressure on NYC and Bragg to let the other indictment (or maybe indictments?) go first, since they take precedence.

My theory, which Ryan and Bolton and Barr are all reinforcing, is that each indictment is like a nail in the coffin.  While the J6 and Georgia "find me 11,780 votes" indictments may not be as clean legally, they sure seem to be like more horrific offenses, and huge nails, to me.  And to most Independents, according to I think every poll.   I'll add RCP's AB Stoddard as another right of center thinker who says very clearly, "Enough!  This man is a fucking spoiled brat.  We should not feel sorry for him.  How long are we going to tolerate this total bullshit?  It's abusive.  I hate it."  She almost says it that bluntly.

I hope Republicans get their way regarding the double standard with Hillary Clinton. 

There's three very important things we know about Hillary, if we want to be fair and avoid a double standard. 

First, the bumper sticker of Election Year 2016 was, "Lock Her Up!"  Taken literally, it is okay for me, as a Democrat, to follow that standard and argue Trump is guilty before proven innocent.  So he should be locked up immediately. 

Second, Clinton was not indicted.  But her emails were talked about all year in 2016.  Let's just assume for purposes of being fair that Clinton's emails and obstruction were the same as Trump's legally - which they are not, of course.  The point is, assuming it's the same thing, we of course need to talk every fucking day about how Trump  is now a total piece of shit - a murderous traitor and scumbag - that needs to be locked up.  Now!  Just like Hillary was in 2016.  Fair is fair. 

Third, few people realize this, but Hillary lost the election in 2016.  (She actually won the popular vote by the millions.  But most Democrats - unlike most Republicans - respect The Constitution.) So if the fair and uniform standard is that in the final week before the 2016 election the FBI was biting huge pieces of Hillary's ass off, that is what they should do to Trump.  Rip his fat ass apart.  And be precise.  Who care's about 2023?  If we are being fair, the FBI needs to make sure it drives a seriously fucking sharp machete straight up Lock Him Up Don's law breaking ass IN THE WEEK BEFORE PEOPLE VOTE IN 2024.   Neither Comey, nor the FBI, said their intent was to make sure Hillary lost in 2016.  But she did lose.  And Hillary and I both agree that the machete they drove up her ass IN THE WEEK BEFORE PEOPLE VOTED IN 2016 was probably the fatal nail in her coffin.  So, if we are being fair, we need to save the best for last.  We need to make horrific charges against Trump.  Hopefully not even based in fact, like Comey's October surprise in 2016. Fair is fair.

Republicans who whine about double standards perhaps don't know that Hillary lost in 2016, thanks to the FBI.  Or maybe that is the double standard.  Perhaps what they really mean is that it's okay that what Hillary did maybe cost her the Presidency in 2016.  But in 2024, we want Trump to be above the law, unlike Hillary.  I'll leave it to conservatives like Bill Barr and Paul Ryan and John Bolton to help the MAGA True Patriots to figure that shit out. 😯  Good luck, guys.

Speaking of Hillary, I think the real danger here is that, in the weird world of politics, this does the opposite of what it did in 2016.  In 2016 all the allegations involving national security and breaking laws definitely hurt Hillary.  The polls showed it, and she lost the election.  If there is something similar, it is what Paul Ryan just argued.  Republicans would have won the Senate and more House seats but for Trump in 2022.  He argued that Trump is the one candidate who will hand the election, and the Senate, to Biden in 2024.  Because these are all nails in his coffin.  But he also noted that politics in never linear.  So in some weird way, the danger is that a majority of Americans actually feel sorry for Trump.  Because he is right.  He is simply be persecuted. And the majority of fair-minded Americans know it.

The polls, and the 2020 and 2022 election results, suggest the exact opposite.  Barr is saying loud and clear Trump broke the law.  And, thus, is "toast."  But who knows?  Trump and MAGA are sure hoping that people feel sorry for our poor little rich juvenile delinquent.  Stranger things have happened.

I'll be very broken record about this.  In the end, I think it's the economy, stupid.  Or, a bit more precisely, it's the recession, stupid.  As of yesterday one bullish stock talking head said we are on the verge of an expansion.  And the S & P will end 2023 at 4800.  Meaning by Election Day 2024 we will be well into all time highs.  Mike Wilson, the Bear In Chief at Morgan Stanley, says the S & P ends 2023 at 3900.  Which one is correct, and the implications on the economy and inflation, probably matters more to Biden than Trump's indictments.  Happily, most talking heads - bull or bear - premise their arguments on the idea that by next Fall inflation will be back to "normal."  Wilson thinks that will hurt corporate earnings, and the S & P.  Because the free ride for big corporations being able to crank up profits to record levels based on COVID is over.  Not his exacts words.  But if he's right, that may actually help Biden.

One might draw a parallel how

@Lucky's original OP, whether Alvin Brag's 34 count Felony indictment against Trump was a good idea, got dragged into a trans debate like MAGA does,  keeping our eye off the ball, when our focus was on TFG's crimes.  They toss their current dog whistle style smoke bomb tactics into a debate. 

So, circling back to the OP, it is a fair question that many were asking.  Trump fucked around and broke the law to keep hidden what could have hurt his candidacy.  It worked. 

Trump didn't get Comey'ed like Hillary did.  So, does America want to go after Trump now?  The deed was done.  Trump won.  His scheme worked.  What good does it do now to make Trump pay for  that unlawful activity.

In my mind (and I am an engineer, not a lawyer) the answer is yes.  Justice should be blind to the person committing the crime.  Right? 

But in this case many were questioning that belief.  Justice should not be blind.  Alvin Bragg charging Trump would only help Trump raise money and help his poll numbers.  Therefore New York should just let it go.

Fast forward three months, Lucky's OP is more and more apropos, and the media is parroting the same arguments.  Jack Smith and Fani Willis have Trump in their sites.  The media responds how Trump fund raising and poll numbers will benefit.

The dialogue has shifted slightly.  Barr, Pence, Haley and their ilk are now claiming how sticking Trump in prison (vs. Indicting Trump) would be wrong for America. 

Me, I would stick Trump in Guantanamo.

But back to the OP.  As an engineer and not a lawyer, I would logically ask

if forgiving Trump for his crimes in NY is best, then which crimes rise to a level that cries our for Justice?

My opinion is Trump is part of a dangerous situation threatening our Democracy.  His crimes must not be ignored at any level.  History must make clear every crime he is guilty of and we must assign a just sentence in every case. 

Not making Trump pay for all his crimes is a terribly, risky path to take.

LOCK HIM UP!

 

 

[forky123]

At this point it's apparent that many of Trump's crimes are so egregious that he must be punished to the fullest extent of the law. He had the option of taking a deal on many of them but is convinced he is above the law. Time for it to be proved that no one is above the law.

[Olddaddy]

8 minutes ago, forky123 said:

At this point it's apparent that many of Trump's crimes are so egregious that he must be punished to the fullest extent of the law. He had the option of taking a deal on many of them but is convinced he is above the law. Time for it to be proved that no one is above the law.

Another country I will give a miss to 

[forky123]

1 hour ago, Olddaddy said:

Another country I will give a miss to 

Please save us from the full list of places you won't go to. 

[Lucky]

I don't think I suggested forgiving Trump for his crimes in the Alvin Bragg prosecution. There are two ways to go after wrongdoing. Civil allows for damages and fines, but no jail. Obviously criminal allows for jail, but my point is that Trump will not serve a day even if convicted.If I am right, civil is then better. The proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt, but by a preponderance of the evidence.

So hit Trump with massive damages and penalties...by a preponderance of the evidence. A criminal case by Bragg will be, and is being, overshadowed by the bigger prosecutions.

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

On 7/2/2023 at 3:56 PM, Lucky said:

So hit Trump with massive damages and penalties...by a preponderance of the evidence. A criminal case by Bragg will be, and is being, overshadowed by the bigger prosecutions.

As a clarification, you're specifically referring to Bragg's indictment, right?  It is a criminal indictment, correct?  If so, could it even be changed at this point?  Or are you saying it would have made more sense for Bragg to go the civil route, since there is a lower standard of proof?

I'm assuming Smith's indictment, as well as any future indictment from him or Fanni Willis, has to be criminal.  Correct?  Lying to the FBI about nuclear secrets, starting riots at The Capitol based on lies, and trying to get Georgia officials to steal an election are all big deals.  They should overshadow Bragg,  If convicted, the issues of pardons and slammer time are separate issues to consider then.

While I'm at 20 questions, John Bolton suggested in some interview that "the Feds" should lean on Bragg to give the federal case precedence.  I like that idea, if I understood him correctly.  But what does that even mean?

I think the political and legal strategies mirror each other.  By political I mean the Never Trump Republican strategy, like Chris Christie.  And I would not make a bet at this point.  My view is the more nails used, the more likely Trump's coffin can finally be nailed shut.  Or, death by 1,000 cuts.  Some are sharp daggers (Smith).  Some are plastic knives (Bragg).   The flip side is that Trump has proven time and again that that which does not kill us makes us stronger. 

Like I said, I wouldn't bet.  If I had to bet, and got to phone a friend, my question would not be legal.  It would be:  will there be a recession in 2024?  Bragg's indictment will look very different to history depending on whether Trump wins or loses the Presidency.

[forky123]

If the US does go into a slight recession given the state of the world economies and the efforts to bring down inflation, only someone with the IQ of a potato could think that is somehow worse than the onslaught on human rights, the attempted coup, the refusal to accept an obvious defeat, the attempts to steal an election (including both Georgia and Arizona), the theft of TS documents and showing to people with no clearance, the sexual assaults and the constant lies.

[unicorn]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:12 PM, Moses said:

Since October 25 2022, yes

Factually wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thérèse_Coffey

"Thérèse Anne Coffey (born 18 November 1971) is a British politician serving as Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs since October 2022. A member of the Conservative Party, she previously was Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Secretary of State for Health and Social Care but only from September to October 2022..."

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lookin]

Ze Theory of Relativity vas a good idea.  Indicting Drumpf iss cheenius!

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Alien comes up to me. Big tears in his eyes. ‘Sir. We’ve been watching your planet for millions of years. And we’ve never seen anyone treated so unfairly…. Perhaps….the most unfair treatment of anyone in the entire universe throughout all of history…Ever. Just nasty nasty people.’“

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:38 PM, lookin said:

Ze Theory of Relativity vas a good idea.  Indicting Drumpf iss cheenius!

The other thing that's genius is the sort of good cop/bad cop strategy that is emerging.  Biden will let the prosecutors, and even the Never Trump Republicans, be the heavies on indictments.  And on Trump's general criminality, pathological lies, and contempt for democracy.

Or, you could actually call it a good news/bad news strategy.  Trump embodies the bad news.  While Biden simply states what the good news is.  Here's a sneak peek of election 2024.

 

[KeepItReal]

On 7/28/2023 at 2:19 PM, JKane said:

 

 

Today is "National Grab Some Nuts day" here in the USA.  Sounds like the DOJ is taking that to heart and has a nice firm grip on them nuts! 🤭

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[forky123]

Well, it took Trump a whole 24 hours to violate the terms of his release in DC.

 

 

 

[EmmetK]

Trump has 1st amendment right to say it.
I (and the 70+ million Americans that voted for Trump) have 1st amendment right to hear it.
This government violates those rights and automatically loses its moral authority to prosecute Trump.

Trump should go after the special prosecutor for the following. I am sure there is a lot more.

•Deliberate withholding of material facts in charging documents .
•Misleading the court
•Malicious prosecution
•Fraud before the court…
•Violations of three independent Inalienable Rights of Donald John Trump.
 

More than that: the fact is, they seek to silence Trump, yet the left insists it is free to dump and leak anything they wish, without penalty.

[forky123]

Let's see how well those arguments hold up before the law.