Is Indicting Trump A Good Idea?

[Suckrates]

 

Trump has anointed himself the new EVITA, upon the release of his new campaign song "Dont Cry for Me, Mar-A-Lago"............

[Pete1111]

On 3/31/2023 at 3:16 PM, stevenkesslar said:

 

The thing that is most worrisome to me, if I isolate this one moment in time, is that anyone can make a great argument to sweep this under the rug.  If all this is about is hush money to a hooker, which is like tip money to a billionaire, it's not worth the drama and division.  

 

What if it's about hush money paid to 3 hookers, or 5 hookers.  I wonder if Trump had a nice gaslighting session with Melania, to convince all the women listed in the indictment never saw his little winkie.

If the payments broke multiple laws such as election law, tax fraud, tax evasion, money laundering what have you, that can result in a felony.  (Sad trombone)

Martha Stewart and Leona Helmsley did time.  Why not Trump?

 

[unicorn]

4 hours ago, Pete1111 said:

What if it's about hush money paid to 3 hookers, or 5 hookers.  I wonder if Trump had a nice gaslighting session with Melania, to convince all the women listed in the indictment never saw his little winkie.

If the payments broke multiple laws such as election law, tax fraud, tax evasion, money laundering what have you, that can result in a felony.  (Sad trombone)

Martha Stewart and Leona Helmsley did time.  Why not Trump?

 

It wasn't the payments which broke the laws. It's the fact that he tried to pass the payments off as a business expense in order to avoid paying taxes. Remember, it's the tax evasion which put Al Capone in the slammer, not his more horrific misdeeds. Tax evasion can be easier to prove. 

[EZEtoGRU]

Trump just entered the NYC courthouse.  He is now in custody and officially under arrest🎉

Woo Hoo!!!

[Marc in Calif]

10 hours ago, unicorn said:

It wasn't the payments which broke the laws. It's the fact that he tried to pass the payments off as a business expense in order to avoid paying taxes. 

It's actually so much more than just a tax issue. Please do try to keep up! 🙃

It was discussed in this very thread just yesterday.

__________________________________

Posted 23 hours ago
On 4/3/2023 at 12:59 AM, forky123 said:
It's not about hush money to a hooker which is entirely legal. It's about recording those payments as business expenses and tax evasion. 

Posted 23 hours ago
On 4/3/2023 at 2:00 AM, Marc in Calif said:
At a much higher level of seriousness, it's about bribing the hooker to remain silent three weeks before an election to influence the results in Drumpf's favor.

And that's definitely illegal. It will be one of the more serious charges announced by the judge tomorrow at the arraignment hearing. Some pundits say that there might be 30 charges included in the Grand Jury's indictment.

 

[Marc in Calif]

PALM BEACH (The Borowitz Report)

As Donald J. Trump became the first former President in U.S. history to be arraigned, his wife, Melania, marked the occasion by sending thoughts and prayers.

According to Mike Lindell, better known as the MyPillow guy, the former President was “surprised” to be on the receiving end of his wife’s thoughts and/or prayers.

“Mr. Trump had not been expecting to receive thoughts and prayers,” Lindell said. “He’s mainly been focusing on donations.”

Although it is not known how many thoughts and how many prayers the former First Lady sent, sources familiar with her thoughts and prayers believe that they are considerably fewer than the number of felony counts in her husband’s indictment.

Speaking to reporters at Mar-a-Lago, Mrs. Trump said that she would have “no comment” on the Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg. “I have a saying,” she said. “‘When they go low, we go high.’”

[EZEtoGRU]

43 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

Mrs. Trump said that she would have “no comment” on the Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg. “I have a saying,” she said. “‘When they go low, we go high.’”

LOL.  She still forgets that was Michele Obama's "saying" which the Trump team stole and pretended they were Malanie's words.  So funny!!

[Marc in Calif]

Thirty-four (34) felony charges were unsealed at Drumpf's arraignment hearing. 

The indictment against former President Donald Trump charges him with 34 criminal counts of falsifying business records and conspiracy in connection with hush money payments to two women before the 2016 presidential election. The indictment says those payments aimed to suppress claims by those women of having sex with Trump, in order to avoid those accounts harming his chances of winning the election over Hillary Clinton.

When Mr. Trump, visibly angry, entered the courtroom, he was accompanied by his legal adviser, Boris Epshteyn, and the lawyers handling this case, Todd W. Blanche, Susan R. Necheles and Joseph Tacopina. Mr. Trump declined to speak, despite aides indicating that he might.

The presence of the Trump adviser Boris Epshteyn at the defense table in the courtroom has been raising eyebrows. Epshteyn’s phone was seized by federal agents last year, apparently in connection with the investigation into Trump’s efforts to remain in power after he lost the 2020 election. Epshteyn is also represented by Todd Blanche, whom Trump hired in recent days to join his legal team.

 

[Marc in Calif]

https://www.salon.com/2023/04/04/marjorie-taylor-greene-flees-her-own-indictment-rally-after-being-drowned-out-by-hecklers/

Marjorie Taylor Greene flees her own Trump indictment rally after being drowned out by hecklers
George Santos also made an appearance to decry the "precedent." He also did not stay long.

Following her brief presence at the rally, Greene compared Trump to Jesus and Nelson Mandela during a backseat interview with RSBN's Brian Glenn, who she is dating.

"President Trump is joining some of the most incredible people in history being arrested today. Nelson Mandela was arrested, served time in prison. Jesus! Jesus was arrested and murdered by the Roman government," she said. "There have been many people throughout history that have been arrested and persecuted by radical, corrupt governments. And it's beginning today in New York City. And I just can't believe it's happening. But I'll always support him. He's done nothing wrong. He's done everything right."

[EZEtoGRU]

One of the hush-money payments that was made was $30,000 to a Trump Tower doorman who allegedly had information of Trump having an illegitimate child out of wedlock.  Is there a bastard Trump child somewhere?  Did we hear about this before?

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/04/-donald-trump-unsealed-indictment-ny-arraingment.html

[Mavica]

3 hours ago, EZEtoGRU said:

One of the hush-money payments that was made was $30,000 to a Trump Tower doorman who allegedly had information of Trump having an illegitimate child out of wedlock.  Is there a bastard Trump child somewhere?  Did we hear about this before?

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/04/-donald-trump-unsealed-indictment-ny-arraingment.html

I recall hearing about the doorman a couple of years ago .. when Michael Cohen was investigated, charged, and imprisoned.

[Mavica]

[EZEtoGRU]

2 hours ago, Mavica said:

I recall hearing about the doorman a couple of years ago .. when Michael Cohen was investigated, charged, and imprisoned.

Why would there be a hush-money $30k payoff to a doorman at Trump Tower for a story that wasn't true?

[Mavica]

10 minutes ago, EZEtoGRU said:

Why would there be a hush-money $30k payoff to a doorman at Trump Tower for a story that wasn't true?

I agree.

[forky123]

Why does Drumpf pay hush money payments at all if the many and various accusations aren't true?

[Marc in Calif]

1 hour ago, forky123 said:

Why does Drumpf pay hush money payments at all if the many and various accusations aren't true?

Whether true or not, any accusation might have cost him the election if leaked in the final weeks of the 2016 campaign. It was all about the election.

Remember that this was just after the "Grab 'em by the pussy" recording was leaked. The fundamentalists and ultra-conservatives were starting to get nervous. 

[Pete1111]

2 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

Whether true or not, any accusation might have cost him the election if leaked in the final weeks of the 2016 campaign. It was all about the election.

Remember that this was just after the "Grab 'em by the pussy" recording was leaked. The fundamentalists and ultra-conservatives were starting to get nervous. 

Whether or not true, 😉the NYC doorman paid off to kill the story about out-of-wedlock baby should have held out for more.  

[forky123]

I really hope Bragg has the goods as if Trump wins it will strengthen him and his base significantly.

[unicorn]

On 4/5/2023 at 10:41 PM, forky123 said:

I really hope Bragg has the goods as if Trump wins it will strengthen him and his base significantly.

His base won't waver their support of the orange menace, no matter what happens. As weak of a candidate as Biden is, I can't imagine Trump returning to the White House. So much the dumber of the Republicans if they give him the nomination.

[forky123]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

His base won't waver their support of the orange menace, no matter what happens. As weak of a candidate as Biden is, I can't imagine Trump returning to the White House. So much the dumber of the Republicans if they give him the nomination.

I hope you're right as 4 years of Trump taking revenge for every perceived slight while punishing every minority class his base hates is going to seem a very long time. The world is in a far more unstable place than it seemed in 2016. The last thing it needs is someone like Trump with his knee jerk "diplomacy".

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

On 4/5/2023 at 10:41 PM, forky123 said:

I really hope Bragg has the goods as if Trump wins it will strengthen him and his base significantly.

 

On 4/7/2023 at 1:14 AM, forky123 said:

I hope you're right as 4 years of Trump taking revenge for every perceived slight while punishing every minority class his base hates is going to seem a very long time.

Good points.

I don't think we're going to know whether "Trump wins" until Nov. 2024.  Assuming he gets the Republican nomination, which he probably will.  Mostly for the same reasons as in 2016.  As Romney guy Stuart Stevens keeps saying, this is what Republican primary voters now want.  Election denial is who the MAGA Republican Party is.  Jan. 6th is what the MAGA Republican Party does.  And still supports two years later.  Check the polls.  Or ask Tucker!  (But not in a private text.)   

We for sure won't know how Bragg's case - or any other looming federal or state indictment - ends up in court anytime soon.  No one knows whether the New York indictment will even go to trial before the 2024 election.

This Q & A with an MSNBC politico is long, but it did a nice job capturing an overall legal and political strategy for me.  Here's the key Q & A

Quote

Is the Justice Department late to the game? Should they have been the first to file indictments regarding not just Mar-a-Lago, but the Jan. 6-related crimes, the attempted coup and the attack itself?

Quote

Yeah, because the message that has been sent is: If you are an aspiring dictator who wants to overthrow the will of the American voters and unlawfully retain the power of the presidency, after you do it, you're going to have a full two years, two and a half years, to plot your next move. You will not be held accountable in a timely manner. 

I completely agree.  That's the big picture. 

If the big picture were whether Barack Obama paid a hooker hush money, or some doorman at Trump Tower alleged that Bill Clinton had a child out of wedlock, I'm not sure most people on either side would really give a shit.  So I don't disagree with @Lucky's main point.  Bragg's case is certainly not the strongest link in the chain. 

But the big picture isn't really any particular legal nuance of any one indictment.  It's whether we want an angry minority who believes election lies and supports riots to undermine democracy to have their aspiring dictator in charge again - whatever it takes. 

By the way, the same angry minority - completely by coincidence - wants to ban abortion.  And books on The Blacks and The Gays, of course.  But please don't say they are homophobes or racists.  Book bans and abortion bans are just what enlightened people do these days! 

This is all what needs to be worked through the democratic system - assuming we still want and have such a thing.  I keep repeating what Obama politico David Plouffe said:  this will be fought out NOT over four years, but over four election cycles.  At least.  What we know so far is that in 2018, 2020, and even 2022 the MAGA BS mostly worked to the advantage of Democrats.  Even though the country is split.  To be more precise, the Republicans who did well in 2022 are guys like Chris Sununu, and Mike DeWine, and Tim Scott, and even Ron DeSantis  - who are less MAGA, and more about an actual forward looking conservative vision of governance.  Not retribution.  Not hate.

So will Americans accept "I am your retribution" and "Make America Hate Again" in 2024?  Who knows.  Tell me whether we are in a recession or recovery in November 2024 and that would be a big clue.

We're a long way from 2000 and Bush v. Gore, which seems charming and quaint in retrospect.  Democrats have won almost every Presidential race since, including 2016, by the popular vote.  Which is why Republicans may have turned to a guy like Trump.  Who will do whatever it takes. 

Karl Rove believes the October 2000 surprise that W. had an old DUI may have cost him five states, and almost the Presidential election.  Wow! "Moral"  voters actually cared about shit like DUI's back then?   Here's the good news.  Survey says that lots of people in the middle, including enough Republicans to put the final nail in Trump's coffin, still care about things like this.  But we'll see. Everybody SHOULD be worried that Trump can win.  And that his angry base wants retribution and hate, and will ban all sorts of things. Even though they just love The Gays, of course!  Bless their hearts.

We do know polls in early 2023 about Nov. 2024 are almost meaningless.  In early 1983 all the polls said Mondale would kick Reagan's ass.  That said, there's no evidence that this is helping Trump in 2024 general election polls.  The latest polls still say that, so far, Republicans would be slightly more likely to beat Biden if they chose DeSantis rather than Trump.  But maybe 20 % or so of voters will make a lesser of evils choice. 

Things don't ever seem to work out well for Trump as the "lesser of evils" guy, do they?  Geez.  Wonder why?  Except, arguably, in 2016.  Barely.  Like I said, everyone SHOULD worry.

 

 

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

 

[Pete1111]

A lot of tough men have been brought to tears by his arrest, tis true,

that the Dems have pursued their champion over a mere fling with a woman, which Trump is known to deny ever happened.

Such is the Repub's MO, totally forgetting their pursuit of Clinton over the blue dress.

 

[stevenkesslar]

2 hours ago, Pete1111 said:

that the Dems have pursued their champion over a mere fling with a woman

And therein lies the issue.  Add this to the clusterfuck:

Bill Barr: DOJ could have 'very good evidence' of possible Trump obstruction in documents case

Quote

“He had no claim to those documents, especially the classified documents. It belonged to the government,” Barr said. “I think he was jerking the government around.”

In the typical MAGA fun house mirror, where a violent riot at The Capitol based on a huge lie becomes The Jubilant Patriotic Cop Beating (they were beaten by false flag FBI filth, of course), you can argue this one either way.

In the world in which most Americans live - including most Independents and some Republicans - Barr is credible.  He appears to have tried to be guard rails on Trump, both as AG and now after he quit.  So the argument above has a lot of merit, coming from Trump's own former AG.

That said, Barr is the typical ball licking RINO that serviced Bush 41 loyally.  And apparently mostly likes CINO (cum in name only).  So he can't handle a real guy like Trump, who doesn't lick the balls of RINOs.  Or the FBI.  So if Trump jerked the government around, who gives a fuck?  That's actually why the MAGA crowd love Trump.  And since the girly men at the FBI can't really cum anyway, like Trump does when he grabs women by the pussy, what harm is a little jerking around gonna do, anyway?  So Barr is the last person on Earth, other than possibly Hunter Biden or Rich Mitch, that any serious MAGA type is gonna listen to.

To tone it back to reality a bit, the other issue is that the idea that A POTUS knows lots of top secret shit isn't in and of itself a big deal.  And even if it is, Not President Brandon and The Guy Who Was Supposed To Be Hung did it, too.  So WTF?  It's just more witch hunts and lies and bullshit.

It's pretty obvious that a majority of the Republicans, especially the MAGA types, are fully committed to the lie that Trump actually won the 2020 election.  So anything Trump does - which is of course NOT authoritarian or fascist, other than in the mind of Democrats, who are all socialists - is justified.  It's just that simple.  Get it?  Probably not, if you post here.  Socialist!

For all these reasons, I'd argue the Mar A Lago stuff is probably the weakest link in the chain, politically.   Even though Barr is of course correct, legally.  Precisely because Trump can use it to rail against RINOs and The Deep State.  It's easier to hate them than Smart Black People Who Are Lawyers.  Because, of course, the GOP is now the party of Smart Black People.  (See Thomas, Clarence and Owens, Candace.) Bragg is just some old school dumb ass who didn't get the memo. But we don't want to seem racist.

We won't really know how this plays out until indictments come in from The Feds, and hopefully Fulton County.  And that involves some complexities, too.  Since they are based on some of the same lies and law breaking.  But I like keeping the focus on how Trump lied about losing an election.  Then systematically undermined democracy.  Often by attacking and threatening other elected Republicans, like in Georgia.  Then rallied his MAGA people to go beat the living shit out of cops at The Capitol to try to steal an election.  And how a shockingly large percentage of Republicans feel comfortable with all these things.  How jubilant!  How patriotic!

I think Biden and Democrats have a big advantage.  Our core argument is actually based on truth.  Team Tucker can't say the same.