Lie flat economy seats?

[reader]

From CNN Travel

Air New Zealand's "Skynest" economy sleeping concept is among the shortlisted entries for this year's Crystal Cabin Awards.

From a cabin concept that completely eradicates the middle seat to a swanky design that takes single-aisle aircraft business class to a new level, this year’s Crystal Cabin Awards shortlist offers an exciting glimpse at aviation’s potential future.

Every year the Crystal Cabin Awards showcase innovative ideas that reconceptualize the airplane cabin experience. There are eight categories, with awards spotlighting everything from eco-friendly innovations – such as an AI-based food waste app idea from German airline Lufthansa – to next generation concepts straight from the university classroom.

Julia Grosser, a spokesperson for the Crystal Cabin Award Association, says this year’s shortlist suggests aviation is turning a corner after the uncertainty of the peak pandemic years.

“Airlines, manufacturers, and suppliers are heavily investing in their onboard products again,” Grosser tells CNN Travel, pointing to the “significant innovation visible even in economy class – from bunk beds to better connectivity.”

Among the shortlisted cabin innovations is Air New Zealand’s “Skynest” concept, which envisages bookable sleeping pods made up of six lie-flat bunk beds, designed to give economy long-haul passengers the opportunity to get some proper shuteye.

“Being a small country at the bottom of the world, long-haul travel is vital to keeping us connected and allowing tourists to visit our beautiful country,” Kerry Reeves, Air New Zealand’s head of aircraft programs, tells CNN Travel.

The motivation behind SkyNest is Air New Zealand’s belief that passengers should be able to “get a good rest, no matter the cabin,” as Reeves puts it.

Continues with photos

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/crystal-cabin-awards-aviation-shortlist-2023/index.html

[unicorn]

My sense is that if one could lie flat in Premium Economy, there wouldn't be much of a market for business class seats...

[caeron]

That may be true, but will it cost the same as an economy seat? I doubt that.

[Riobard]

3 hours ago, unicorn said:

My sense is that if one could lie flat in Premium Economy, there wouldn't be much of a market for business class seats...

My last few business class flights were a waste of money. I like to lie flat as a variation of posture, and be on my side, requiring 180 degrees. Sleeping is great if the conditions support it.

My last flight bumped me from the last row to being in front of a family of 6 travelling at the last minute. One of the young children usurped my selected seat but could have easily been clustered with her folks without me needing to move. Much shrieking among the 4: infant to 6-ish. No sleep. All this racket directed forward to my ears.

The flight before that was a bachelor party clustered around me. No, no lookers. Not misbehaving, but rowdy and loud enough to inhibit any possibility of restorative sleep. 

And before that, first row, about 2 feet from a curtain behind which several flight attendants were talking extremely loudly for several hours while most other passengers making zz’s snug in their duvets. 

I’ve rested better on some occasions in packed economy. 

I would prefer to pay a lot less to lie flat if those populating a shared space are going to render attempts at sleeping futile.

I’m a very solid and enviably deep sleeper at home where it’s quiet. 

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, caeron said:

That may be true, but will it cost the same as an economy seat? I doubt that.

my guess is it will be triple economy cost

[unicorn]

3 hours ago, Riobard said:

...several flight attendants were talking extremely loudly for several hours while most other passengers making zz’s snug in their duvets. 

...

I’m a very solid and enviably deep sleeper at home where it’s quiet. 

Don't leave home without them:

Reducing noise from 60 dB to 28 dB leads to a noise level most can tolerate for sleep:

[Riobard]

1 hour ago, vinapu said:

my guess is it will be triple economy cost

The thing about a guess in quantitative terms is that it can range from being born out to having been wildly speculative. Context is lacking in terms of how to price-point a large departure from the current lay of the land. 

[Riobard]

12 minutes ago, unicorn said:

Don't leave home without them:

These work best if shoved up the nasal passages or crammed into the windpipes of those disturbing your sleep. Those applications double for vocal cord disabling. If folks could just self-regulate. Sign language should be the 1st language in some cases. Opposing thumbs are vastly underused. That said, they are solutions that I would only need a few hours a month on average. 

[PeterRS]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:42 PM, reader said:

Air New Zealand's "Skynest" economy sleeping concept is among the shortlisted entries for this year's Crystal Cabin Awards.

These sleep pods look great but as the article points out there are only six in each long haul aircraft. You rent them at an extra fee for a few hours after which they are prepared for another passenger.

6 hours ago, Riobard said:

My last few business class flights were a waste of money. I like to lie flat as a variation of posture, and be on my side, requiring 180 degrees. Sleeping is great if the conditions support it.

I think this clearly depends on the airline - and passengers with kids, of course. In my view small kids should be banned from long haul business class!

My sister recently took a long haul United flight from the UK to the US in biz class and thought it a total waste of money. On the other hand, I have just completed 4 biz class flights on Qatar to the UK from BKK on a variety of aircraft - an A380, 2 x 787s and one 777 with the Q Suites. The Q Suites are wonderful for peace and space. The other aircraft had the herring bone configuration and were perfectly good for sleeping. Qatar provides a matress to go over the seat since many seats can be quite hard in the flat position and the blanket is large, luxurious and thick. Food and wines for those with an appetite are the best I have ever tasted in any biz class. Meals are also served when you want them.

Mind you, there can be times when it would be nice if there were no doors to the Suites. Returning to Bangkok across the aisle there was the cutest Thai guy travelling with his mother. I would happily have spent more time gazing at him!!

[fedssocr]

My recent flights in Qatar Q suites were just OK. Part of it was the timing of the flights. On one leg there was a wailing baby in the cabin who eventually settled down, but my earplugs did help quite a bit. My long flight from IAD to DOH was on a somewhat older aircraft and the suite had definitely seen better days and the door kept sliding open. I didn't find the mattress pad thing to be of much help on the hard seat. The leg to BKK was on a more recently fitted aircraft so the suite was in better condition. At least the door stayed closed. And the seat was a little softer. 

ANA has a mattress pad which is quite surprisingly comfortable.

[reader]

The lie-flat economy concept is a spinoff on the existing crew sleeping pods that long-haul aircraft are equipped with for the attendants and relief pilots on break. The problem I see with them is what do you do with passengers when it's time for landing, take-off and meal service when they need to be seated upright. At the moment premium economy is probably the better option for those wanting greater recline and seat pitch.

A typical 787 arrangement:

[Riobard]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

These sleep pods look great but as the article points out there are only six in each long haul aircraft. You rent them at an extra fee for a few hours after which they are prepared for another passenger.

I think this clearly depends on the airline - and passengers with kids, of course. In my view small kids should be banned from long haul business class!

My sister recently took a long haul United flight from the UK to the US in biz class and thought it a total waste of money. On the other hand, I have just completed 4 biz class flights on Qatar to the UK from BKK on a variety of aircraft - an A380, 2 x 787s and one 777 with the Q Suites. The Q Suites are wonderful for peace and space. The other aircraft had the herring bone configuration and were perfectly good for sleeping. Qatar provides a matress to go over the seat since many seats can be quite hard in the flat position and the blanket is large, luxurious and thick. Food and wines for those with an appetite are the best I have ever tasted in any biz class. Meals are also served when you want them.

Mind you, there can be times when it would be nice if there were no doors to the Suites. Returning to Bangkok across the aisle there was the cutest Thai guy travelling with his mother. I would happily have spent more time gazing at him!!

Yes I’ll be flying Qatar biz this year. It will be the only time I jump more than 6 time zones. I should dial back the over-privileged whining. Nobody is forcing me to spend non-commensurate with quality. 

[fedssocr]

3 hours ago, reader said:

The lie-flat economy concept is a spinoff on the existing crew sleeping pods that long-haul aircraft are equipped with for the attendants and relief pilots on break. The problem I see with them is what do you do with passengers when it's time for landing, take-off and meal service when they need to be seated upright. At the moment premium economy is probably the better option for those wanting greater recline and seat pitch.

A typical 787 arrangement:

it sounds like the beds will be separate from the regular seats. You would have your seat and then rent the bed for part of the flight. So you would still have your seat to sit in for take off and landing

[PeterRS]

20 hours ago, fedssocr said:

My recent flights in Qatar Q suites were just OK.

Accepting that we are all different, I do find that placing the flat bad seat an inch or so off dead flat helps greatly. My body feels better and sleep seems easier.

[reader]

10 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Accepting that we are all different, I do find that placing the flat bad seat an inch or so off dead flat helps greatly. My body feels better and sleep seems easier.

A little known fact about an aircraft's "attitude" at cruising altitude may help explain the one-inch deviation:

From Airliners.net

The incidence angle of the aircraft at cruise altitude is based on the specific airfoil (wing profile), the fuselage profile, and the center of gravity of the aircraft in particular. It so happens that most airliners have an aerodynamics combination that require a positive fuselage incidence angle in order to stay level at cruise - resulting in a slightly nose up position at cruise.

[khaolakguy]

I can imagine how much fun it will be for stewards to wake half cut passengers to tell them that their booked sleeping flat slot has completed!

[Riobard]

I don’t drink much on flights but I’d be one of those with a bad altitude when abruptly awakened. 

31 minutes ago, khaolakguy said:

I can imagine how much fun it will be for stewards to wake half cut passengers to tell them that their booked sleeping flat slot has completed!

 

[scott456]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:45 PM, Riobard said:

oung children usurped my selected seat but could have easily been clustered with her folks without me needing to move. Much shrieking among the 4: infant to 6-ish. No sleep. All this racket directed forward to my ears.

The flight before that was a bachelor party clustered around me. No, no lookers. Not misbehaving, but rowdy and loud enough to inhibit any possibility of restorative sleep. 

And before that, first row, about 2 feet from a curtain behind which several flight attendants were talking extremely loudly for several hours while most other passengers making zz’s snug in their duvets. 

I recommend using ear plugs + noise canceling head set.  

[Riobard]

1 hour ago, scott456 said:

I recommend using ear plugs + noise canceling head set.  

Of course that’s a good idea, well-intentioned if perhaps over-stated. I bring a few hundred dollars worth on board, including the noise-cancelling Bose over-the-ear padded headphones and the noise-cancelling Bose ear buds, both power-charged. However, I am habituated to sleeping on my side and a pillow is the only thing I want pressed up to my ears. The one activity I am occasionally on my back prone to doesn’t involve sleep or Pilates, but maybe Barry White 🎶 tracks over a Bose Bluetooth speaker. As an aside, I never take sleeping medication in any context; probably the worst place would be on a flight where alertness at an instant’s notice may be needed. 

[PeterRS]

9 hours ago, scott456 said:

I recommend using ear plugs + noise canceling head set.  

Great when awake but I find even the ear buds inconvenient when sleeping on my side. On the other hand, I do find the orange waxy earplugs the airlines give out very good at blocking most sounds. I do not insert them as they come from the packet. Rather I fold them in two, squash them into a smallish ball and then virtually screw them into the ear. Sounds odd but for me it works well.

14 hours ago, reader said:

A little known fact about an aircraft's "attitude" at cruising altitude may help explain the one-inch deviation:

I've known about the prevalence of an aircraft to pitch up slightly during flight for a long time. But surely that should aid the lie flat position. It it were pitch down. my inch up would be more understandable. For me i think it is the fact that whereas a normal mattress will give a little for pelvic bones at the centre of the body, on a lie flat seat there is no such 'give'. It is all dead 'flat'.

[PeterRS]

On 3/23/2023 at 9:43 PM, fedssocr said:

it sounds like the beds will be separate from the regular seats. You would have your seat and then rent the bed for part of the flight. So you would still have your seat to sit in for take off and landing

This is correct. It seems they will be at the back of the cabin - but that's a guess. There will be 6 pods - 2 banks of 3. So those in the lowest pod will rather have to crawl in. They will be available for 4 hours with only one session per booked passenger. The crew will then clean, install new bedding and turn around each pod. Cost estimate is in the region of NZ$400 - $600 per 4-hour session = US$254 - $380. Expensive given that economy fares on long haul flights have risen a lot recently. But as the attached article points out, a great deal cheaper than a restricted business class return which presently costs in the region of NZ$8,700 for the 16-hour Auckland/New York return flights for autumn this year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/11/snoring-is-perfectly-natural-testing-air-new-zealands-world-first-sleep-pods