Who bombed the Nord Stream?

[njf]

Here is an interesting article in the Intercept about the Nord Stream saga.  The NYT story about a pro-Ukrainian group is silly in so many aspects.  It is sad that NYT acted as the mouthpiece of the US intelligence agencies.  In the golden days, the Grand Lady published the Pentagon papers.

https://theintercept.com/2023/03/10/nord-stream-pipeline-bombing/

[stevenkesslar]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:27 AM, njf said:

Here is an interesting article in the Intercept about the Nord Stream saga.  The NYT story about a pro-Ukrainian group is silly in so many aspects.  It is sad that NYT acted as the mouthpiece of the US intelligence agencies.  In the golden days, the Grand Lady published the Pentagon papers.

https://theintercept.com/2023/03/10/nord-stream-pipeline-bombing/

Great article I finally got around to reading.

I emphatically opposed the Iraq War, and emphatically support what the US and NATO are doing in Ukraine.  That said, reading the details of all kinds of unprovable theories about Nord Stream sure reminds me of the debate about Iraq and WMD.  The Intercept helped me along by hyperlinking in its article this also very good article written by Seymour Hersch in May 2003, shortly after the Iraq invasion.  Hersch wrote that just as it became clear that there were not mountains of WMD - or roses - greeting US soldiers in Iraq.   I agree with the article that it never makes sense to simply assume that whatever US intelligence agencies say is true.

With the perspective of 20 years of mostly bad things happening, culminating in the cynical and nationalist turn to a MAGA-fied Republican Party under Trump, Hersch's 2003 article about how Team Rumsfeld made up lots of bullshit and lied to the American people and the entire world is just painful to read.  What assholes!  What liars!  They fucked up history.  They fucked up the United States.  Everything they sought to do backfired and just fucked things up.  They hurt democracy and weakened the United States.  They strengthened Iran and gave Putin a reason to think, "If the US can do it, why can't I?"  And eventually he did.

This isn't just my opinion.  20 years on, 61 % of Americans now think the Iraq War was a mistake. If they took a survey of everyone outside the US, the percentage who think it was a mistake would probably be even higher.  My guess is that even if there had been WMD in Iraq, it would not have changed the long term narrative much.  In his 2003 article, Hersch quotes an unnamed Congressional politico explaining why the Iraq War was a good move, regardless of WMD.  "Everyone loves to be on the winning side,"  the Congressional source says.  True.  At least true in 2003.  In 2023, it looks more like we were on the losing side.  Oops!

For the same reason, I'm not sure whether it matters 20 years from now whether Biden ordered the bombing of Nord Stream.  People in Europe are very clear in polls that they see Putin as the mass murdering war criminal who bombs their children.  And then kidnaps the ones he doesn't blow up and carts them off to Russia.  People in Europe don't want Russian oil.  They actually don't want Russian anything, pretty much. 

We don't know how this will play out in 20 years.  But we do know right now most of the world is on Ukraine's side.  Even if the leaders of countries like India and Mexico don't want to formally take sides.  So I'm not optimistic for Murderous Vlad, or Russia. 

Like WMD, I don't think Nord Stream is going to make a big difference in the long term success or failure of this effort to secure democratic values and protect nations from being invaded by bullies in an emerging multipolar world.

 

[Mavica]

39 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

I agree with the article that it never makes sense to simply assume that whatever US intelligence agencies say is true.

Simply assuming as accurate whatever any nation's intelligence agency says is true would be ill-advised.