You know you lost the war when they laugh in your face

[alvnv]

2 hours ago, tassojunior said:

The US killed SEVEN MILLION PEOPLE in VietNam. (or do you prefer to call them "g**ks?). Then 1 million in Iraq ("sand n***ers"?). What other country comes close since then? I don't think defeating Russia needs be our main priority in the US. The world's biggest murderer is right here. But I don't blame patriots who love their country and fight for it trusting it's necessary. It's the regime in America that convinces them killing people is good when it's really only after preserving world domination for the white race (NATO), Wall Street, and the US war industry.  

3 times as many were killed within USSR alone: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_repression_in_the_Soviet_Union

Russia has already been defeated in the Cold War - that’s what, clearly, you and (Lilli)Putin cannot get over. You’re not the superpower anymore, but rather one of the emerging economies along with countries and races you do despise (BRICS) - you are not the leader even in that group, but rather are becoming China’s client state.

And don’t get me started on the prejudice in the Russia’s establishment, as well as demeaning treatment of the peoples within the Federation, little less of other races. There are very specific Russian words that don’t even exist in English describing races by color of one’s behind, or shape of one’s eyes. But his can one expect you to like others when you don’t even like each other. Here is a quote by a famous Russian: “Помяните мое слово, если Россия от чего-то погибнет, то исключительно от хамства! Хам на хаме сидит и хамом погоняет! Сверху донизу сплошные хамы!” (“Mark my words, if there’s a demise of Russia, it will be exclusively from rudeness! The boor sits on the boor and rules over a boor! From top to bottom, solid boors!”)

[tassojunior]

20 hours ago, alvnv said:

3 times as many were killed within USSR alone: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_repression_in_the_Soviet_Union

Russia has already been defeated in the Cold War - that’s what, clearly, you and (Lilli)Putin cannot get over. You’re not the superpower anymore, but rather one of the emerging economies along with countries and races you do despise (BRICS) - you are not the leader even in that group, but rather are becoming China’s client state.

And don’t get me started on the prejudice in the Russia’s establishment, as well as demeaning treatment of the peoples within the Federation, little less of other races. There are very specific Russian words that don’t even exist in English describing races by color of one’s behind, or shape of one’s eyes. But his can one expect you to like others when you don’t even like each other. Here is a quote by a famous Russian: “Помяните мое слово, если Россия от чего-то погибнет, то исключительно от хамства! Хам на хаме сидит и хамом погоняет! Сверху донизу сплошные хамы!” (“Mark my words, if there’s a demise of Russia, it will be exclusively from rudeness! The boor sits on the boor and rules over a boor! From top to bottom, solid boors!”)

the love of killing and war in people like you is just a poison that makes you a miserable person to others and yourself. there's few more horrible diseases you could be infected with than pride in killing others. 

[forky123]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:25 PM, tassojunior said:

Either you want to kill these patriots to their country to preserve American military hegemony over the world or you don't. 

What utter rubbish. If these troops are in Ukraine as part of an invading force then that is Putin's choice and their deaths are on his head. They are part of an invasion deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure (aka war crimes). Just as the defenestrations, poisonings and deaths of oligarchs and senior military people who speak out against the Ukraine invasion are Putin's responsibility, not US or NATOs. Picking out family pictures and making out that people wanting Ukraine to be able to defend itself are intent on the individual deaths of happy, smiling troops is both ridiculous and offensive. 

[alvnv]

12 hours ago, tassojunior said:

the love of killing and war in people like you is just a poison that makes you a miserable person to others and yourself. there's few more horrible diseases you could be infected with than pride in killing others. 

Nice try, but you’re not talking to Fox or RT audience

[tassojunior]

7 hours ago, forky123 said:

What utter rubbish. If these troops are in Ukraine as part of an invading force then that is Putin's choice and their deaths are on his head. They are part of an invasion deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure (aka war crimes). Just as the defenestrations, poisonings and deaths of oligarchs and senior military people who speak out against the Ukraine invasion are Putin's responsibility, not US or NATOs. Picking out family pictures and making out that people wanting Ukraine to be able to defend itself are intent on the individual deaths of happy, smiling troops is both ridiculous and offensive. 

Blatant lies loyally repeated by yet another Nazi clone. Do you a masturbate to babies having their heads cut off by US soldiers in Iraq? Do you wear necklaces of Vietnamese ears to bed? If your government told you to stick 6 million Jews in ovens you'd show up with red, white and blue pom-poms and zippo lighters to light the ovens. Because it's for their own good ! Because everyone knows it's good ! Uncritical support of America's continual war for world domination through continual genocide and destruction of other nations is on you. You have murdered more people than anyone could have imagined in the modern age.  I am a proud American and I want nothing to do with you robotic murderers who drag our country down to fascist levels. 

[tassojunior]

here's a great photo for you fascist murderers to masturbate to.

One of the 1 million Iraqis you recently murdered going door-to-door pulling boys as young as 4 out of their homes and putting bullets in their heads and so they'd never grow up to be big "sand ni**ers" as you call them.  Put your Vietnamese ear necklace on and jerk off looking at the butt crack of the dead body. USA! USA!

The world's biggest purveyor of war and death is now the US I'm ashamed to say. And you mindless pro-war followers of the fascist regime are the problem and the murderers. 

 

[forky123]

Typical American who thinks everyone else is also American. You are seriously deranged.

[tassojunior]

1 minute ago, forky123 said:

Typical American who thinks everyone else is also American. You are seriously deranged.

no. just as in nazi Germany, it's the pro-war, pro-world dominance majority, that's deranged but there are still enough of us with a conscience who don't get sucked into the war machine. 

[forky123]

Putin and his supporters, like yourself, are the ones who are pro war. I in no way support any war. I do support the rights of the people of Ukraine to defend themselves against annihilation by Putin.

[tassojunior]

1 hour ago, forky123 said:

Putin and his supporters, like yourself, are the ones who are pro war. I in no way support any war. I do support the rights of the people of Ukraine to defend themselves against annihilation by Putin.

It was Zelensky, at US urging, who invaded Dombas and murdered 14,000 people after he had signed a treaty recognizing it's autonomy to settle the civil war after the residents overwhelmingly voted to leave Ukraine and it's nazis. 

Ukraine is still pissed because the Russians came through in WW2 and let all the Jews out of their ovens

.  

[forky123]

Your idea of history is very selective. 

WTF does WW2 have to do with the topic except your idea that anyone showing independent thought is a "Nazi"?

[tassojunior]

41 minutes ago, forky123 said:

Your idea of history is very selective. 

WTF does WW2 have to do with the topic except your idea that anyone showing independent thought is a "Nazi"?

"independent thought" lol. you're mindlessly reciting the approved thought (and lies) of the world power regime like a parrot and calling it independent thought. all the political nuance of a north korean good citizen. all the smugness of a Hitler youth. but you've turned off any "thought" in favor of conformity.  

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, tassojunior said:

It was Zelensky, at US urging, who invaded Dombas and murdered 14,000 people after he had signed a treaty recognizing it's autonomy to settle the civil war after the residents overwhelmingly voted to leave Ukraine and it's nazis. 

Ukraine is still pissed because the Russians came through in WW2 and let all the Jews out of their ovens

.  

You're stating the complete opposite of the truth. The truth is that Russia and Ukraine signed a treaty in which Ukraine got rid of its nukes in exchange for Russia accepting Urkaine's borders, then Russia (Putin) invaded Ukraine--first Crimea and then eastern Ukraine. As you know, not only have Ukrainians not persecuted Jews, but they elected one for President. You speak as a shill for RT, and it sounds as though you'd be happier living in Russia, which might be a good idea. 

[lookin]

Not trying to be a 'Miss Manners' here but OZ's views on the Politics Forum are clear and simple: Do NOT get nasty. Debate the topic not the poster!

We're lucky as a group to have this Forum, and I'm lucky to see some of my favorite posters here.  Having posted here for a while, I can confirm that OZ doesn't waste time on warnings and requests.  When the hammer comes down, it's quick and direct.

I'd sure hate to lose even one of my favorite posters who are just settling in.  I believe we're all smart enough not to foul our nest. 🤞

[tassojunior]

58 minutes ago, unicorn said:

You're stating the complete opposite of the truth. The truth is that Russia and Ukraine signed a treaty in which Ukraine got rid of its nukes in exchange for Russia accepting Urkaine's borders, then Russia (Putin) invaded Ukraine--first Crimea and then eastern Ukraine. As you know, not only have Ukrainians not persecuted Jews, but they elected one for President. You speak as a shill for RT, and it sounds as though you'd be happier living in Russia, which might be a good idea. 

Ukraine signed a treaty in 2014 to end the civil war in Dombas after voters overwhelmingly voted for separation in two provinces (other provinces voted to stay in Ukraine).  Angela Merkel recently said the treaty was a farce to give Zelensky time to get US weapons to invade Donbas. He did get the weapons and he did invade Donbas and 14,000 human beings were killed by his revoking the peace treaty. The separation of the Soviet Ukrainian Republic from Russia has zero to do with  any of this except the borders were never historic Ukraine. Crimea, Yalta, Odessa have been Russian for hundreds of years. Catherine the Great built Odessa. The Russian nationality began in Kiev. People in Donbas despise western Ukrainians who they consider country bumpkins and who killed many Russians in World War 2 fighting for the Nazis. The national hero of Ukraine with portraits in every post office, school and office building is Bandera, the leader of the Ukraine nazis in WW2 and most Ukrainian soldiers for the Azov Battalion have nazi tattoos. Zelensky is indeed a secular Jew and has a $15 million beach house in Israel purchased with bribes from the US.

I support a ceasefire in this stalemate which has frozen pretty much along the lines of the provinces that wanted out of Ukraine originally and which the 2014 treaty was to establish as autonomous. Not because I'm pro Putin or anti Zelinsky or a socialist or any other reason than that my country is obviously trying to extend the war and suffering and death for all thinking it will weaken Russia as an alternative power to US world dominance. But to urge continuation of killing for power ambition is unconscionable. These are human beings being used by the fascist state we've unfortunately devolved into. Yes, it's easy to run a country where everyone is indoctrinated with the same propaganda day after day and there's group think as opposed to access to facts. I'm personally not going to submit to that mindless acceptance of group think because it causes killing people marked as the inhumane "enemy" to be exterminated (for their own good- like the Vietnamese). It's a shame America has devolved into a fascist totalitarian 24-7 propaganda state with heavy censorship and canceling of people who have different views. But it's killing spree has to end. Death of every person in America in the coming nuclear war is not worth giving into the urge to belong and be silent, even if you support wars and killing lots of "them". 

Here's your Azov battalion. 

 

[TotallyOz]

Unlike others, I will not spend hours debating site rules. I have given a warning on this thread. The next one is a 60 day ban. Act like gentlemen our get out.

[tassojunior]

2 hours ago, unicorn said:

You speak as a shill for RT, and it sounds as though you'd be happier living in Russia, which might be a good idea. 

This. 

This is what Germans who opposed Hitler had to deal with, this is what Americans who opposed the VietNam War and the Iraq War had to deal with, this is what southerners who opposed segregation had to deal with, what Americans who supported gay rights had to deal with, and it rears it's ugly head every time there's dissent to doing something obviously wrong because "everyone knows it's right", "everyone knows the facts",  "are you a traitor or a patriot to your country?"

Whatever you want to think, I am proudly an American born and raised here for many generations. That doesn't mean I have to like my government or make excuses for it if it's doing evil things. If anything if you love your country you should want it to be a free open society with free speech, including dissent, not just parroting government propaganda to conform and be accepted and make life easier for yourself. Yes it's easier for a country to govern when there's no dissent and everyone thinks the same. Yes, that's a good argument for news cycle propaganda narratives and censorship of news and facts. No, that's not a type government I want here and hope Russians and French and Chinese and Australians feel the same in their countries. 

Saying someone doesn't belong in their own country anymore because they don't support evil things their government does is not exactly novel.   

[lookin]

20 minutes ago, tassojunior said:

I support a ceasefire in this stalemate which has frozen pretty much along the lines of the provinces that wanted out of Ukraine originally and which the 2014 treaty was to establish as autonomous. Not because I'm pro Putin or anti Zelinsky or a socialist or any other reason than that my country is obviously trying to extend the war and suffering and death for all thinking it will weaken Russia as an alternative power to US world dominance.

If that's  true, and you sure know a lot more of the history than I do, a ceasefire makes a lot of sense.  It also makes sense just to stop the destruction of communities and whole cities.  No one should have to live with bombs going off around them all day.  And I sure can't say that sending weapons to Ukraine is doing anything to stop this destruction.  Unless one day Putin decides to call everyone back home and let Ukraine start to rebuild.  I guess that's the only hope and, as of today, it seems pretty much of a long shot.

Im my opinion, I think the U. S. had a better standing in the world when it was begged to intervene rather than when it waded in uninvited and certainly when it waded in to gain more power.  Power, in my opinion, is something to be avoided and handled judiciously when it can't be avoided.

I guess it's possible to stop sending arms to Ukraine and ask our allies to do the same.  It would also be possible to look the other way if Putin starts bombing every other country that he sees as part of Mother Russia.  We could just wait to see what happens.  We could even further that approach and become neutral, isolationist and uninvolved anywhere outside our borders.  That was the position of the US throughout much of its history, and it could be again.

We could also stop funding the military and start dismantling our nuclear arsenal.  We could keep our fingers crossed that no other country would walk, float and fly in to help themselves to whatever they like.  Personally, I wouldn't kill anybody over ownership of a laptop or even a house.  I expect most of my fellow humans feel the same way.

Here at home, I can vote and support leaders who share my values.  But I can't vote Putin out, no matter how many lives he destroys.  It seems my only tool, besides denial, is to support those who want to get rid of him.

Not a good option, and I'm sure I'm missing some better ones.  

[tassojunior]

1 hour ago, lookin said:

If that's  true, and you sure know a lot more of the history than I do, a ceasefire makes a lot of sense.  It also makes sense just to stop the destruction of communities and whole cities.  No one should have to live with bombs going off around them all day.  And I sure can't say that sending weapons to Ukraine is doing anything to stop this destruction.  Unless one day Putin decides to call everyone back home and let Ukraine start to rebuild.  I guess that's the only hope and, as of today, it seems pretty much of a long shot.

Im my opinion, I think the U. S. had a better standing in the world when it was begged to intervene rather than when it waded in uninvited and certainly when it waded in to gain more power.  Power, in my opinion, is something to be avoided and handled judiciously when it can't be avoided.

I guess it's possible to stop sending arms to Ukraine and ask our allies to do the same.  It would also be possible to look the other way if Putin starts bombing every other country that he sees as part of Mother Russia.  We could just wait to see what happens.  We could even further that approach and become neutral, isolationist and uninvolved anywhere outside our borders.  That was the position of the US throughout much of its history, and it could be again.

We could also stop funding the military and start dismantling our nuclear arsenal.  We could keep our fingers crossed that no other country would walk, float and fly in to help themselves to whatever they like.  Personally, I wouldn't kill anybody over ownership of a laptop or even a house.  I expect most of my fellow humans feel the same way.

Here at home, I can vote and support leaders who share my values.  But I can't vote Putin out, no matter how many lives he destroys.  It seems my only tool, besides denial, is to support those who want to get rid of him.

Not a good option, and I'm sure I'm missing some better ones.  

The South Vietnamese government urged us into Vietnam and that justified us exterminating 7 million Vietnamese. We went into Iraq because "we'd be seen as liberators" giving them democracy and promptly killed a million Iraqis. We sent money and weapons to Ukraine to "liberate" the Dombas which had left Ukraine in 2014, with a signed treaty even, and we helped them kill 14,000 people. People who think the US does anything for benevolent reasons would probably buy bridges too.

The US wanted this war and paid well to get it. It wants Russia diminished as a world power and that includes a lot of dead Russians with collateral damage of a lot of dead Ukrainians (we'll pay them well for their lives of course because we're their friend). The global strategy also includes protecting America from China (on the other side of the globe !) by surrounding it with our allies. Whatever the cost.

This has nothing to do with Putin. He's the most pro-American Russian. Under Clinton we spent a fortune getting him and Yeltsin in power and defeating the Communists. And he regularly gave the Clintons million dollar checks back.(then he stopped and Hillary went berserk). The other Russian leaders are much more anti-American than Putin and he's criticized there as an American puppet for his weakness to challenge the US. Even the "liberal" opposition calls him weak on doing things in Ukraine. The man didn't say a thing when the US killed 200 Russian soldiers in one day while we were protecting ISIS. What American president could stay if Russia or China killed 200 US soldiers in one day and that president did nothing?

IDK if hoping someone else comes in is a good idea dealing with a country that has 6000 nuclear weapons pointed at the US and hypersonic missles (which we don't have) to deliver them undetected in 15 minutes. Most Americans would be dead in 15 minutes from their launch in Russia and we wouldn't know they were coming. The "nuclear war" clock has been moved to seconds from midnight lately. Until Putin, Russia's never been a country to back down in humiliation as he's done to the US. Ask Napoleon and Hitler. The choice to Putin is probably someone with redlines we've already crossed. And support for the Dombas intervention is very high in Russia. The alternative if Russia pulled out would be more slaughter of people in Donbas by the Ukrainians. That's what Putin has to fear at home, not some American puppet coming to power. Historically for Russia, he's a very weak coward in always backing down to the US. Frankly I was shocked when he didn't have to step down after disclosure of the US killing those 200 Russians in one day.

I know plenty of Ukrainians from Dombas  in Prague and I had to break from the rabid government shills here because it's a very complex thing that has killed many people. The fascist government here takes advantage of people not having any knowledge of Ukraine. But yes, the US policy is to cause as much death and destruction as possible for as long as possible to bring down the power of the Russian nation. We just lucked up on Ukraine being willing to use their people as cannon fodder for us. But we'll pay them well for their lives. In the meantime WW3 is closer everyday and getting more certain. Maybe nuclear winter will help against global warming. Maybe that's the plan. 

[forrestreid]

3 hours ago, tassojunior said:

  Angela Merkel recently said the treaty was a farce to give Zelensky time to get US weapons to invade Donbas. He did get the weapons and he did invade Donbas and 14,000 human beings were killed by his revoking the peace treaty.

 

When did this invasion happen?

Zelensky did not regain an inch of the Donbas for Ukraine prior to February 2022, although there was occasional flare-ups of fighting and shelling at the front line during his Presidency, as there had been several times since 2014.

The deaths caused by these flare-ups were much lower that the average casualties at the front between 2014 and when Zelensky was inaugurated.

If you mean after February 2022, what you are talking about is Zelensky leading the fightback against the Russian invasion of that month, to call THAT an "invasion of Donbas" is self-evidently ludicrous.

Edited March 13, 2023 by forrestreid
clarity

[forrestreid]

3 hours ago, tassojunior said:

The separation of the Soviet Ukrainian Republic from Russia has zero to do with  any of this except the borders were never historic Ukraine. Crimea, Yalta, Odessa have been Russian for hundreds of years. Catherine the Great built Odessa. The Russian nationality began in Kiev.

This is very much the Russian imperialistic view of Ukraine history.

I am not really read up enough on it to argue against it, but I must say it is rather strange that somebody claiming to be opposed to the war from what one might call a US leftist-pacifist point of view should trot out these arguments.

[tassojunior]

1 minute ago, forrestreid said:

When did this invasion happen?

Zelensky did not regain an inch of the Donbas for Ukraine prior to February 2022, although there was occasional flare-ups of fighting and shelling at the front line during his Presidency, as there had been several times since 2014.

The deaths caused by these flare-ups were much lower that the average casualties at the front between 2014 and when Zelensky was inaugurated.

If you mean after February 2022, you are talking about the Zelensky leading the fightback of the Russian invasion of that month, to call THAT an invasion of Donbas is self-evidently ludicrous.

between 2014 and the 2022 Russian invasion 14,000 people were killed in Donbas. mostly by Ukraine troops that were supposed to have been withdrawn under the Minsk treaty. Russia was helping the rebels and many individual Russians volunteered and fought there, but the civilian death toll in Donbas from the Ukraine army was the  was the reason public opinion in Russia was demanding Putin do something. It's always censored from us in the US as is the fact that today and everyday the Ukraine army shells and kills civilians in Donbas on purpose. The misery of people in Donbas from Ukraine shelling is just as great as the misery by shelling of Russians on Ukraine. I have friends from both sides in Prague and there is no "good" actor here. And the sole goal of the US is to keep the war and killing going as long as possible.

 

[forky123]

27 minutes ago, forrestreid said:

When did this invasion happen?

Zelensky did not regain an inch of the Donbas for Ukraine prior to February 2022, although there was occasional flare-ups of fighting and shelling at the front line during his Presidency, as there had been several times since 2014.

The deaths caused by these flare-ups were much lower that the average casualties at the front between 2014 and when Zelensky was inaugurated.

If you mean after February 2022, you are talking about the Zelensky leading the fightback of the Russian invasion of that month, to call THAT an invasion of Donbas is self-evidently ludicrous.

It didn't. There have been continual confrontations since Minsk II and Putin has continued to pour heavy weapons into the region in direct contravention of Minsk II.

[tassojunior]

41 minutes ago, forrestreid said:

This is very much the Russian imperialistic view of Ukraine history.

I am not really read up enough on it to argue against it, but I must say it is rather strange that somebody claiming to be opposed to the war from what one might call a US leftist-pacifist point of view should trot out these arguments.

few Americans know where Ukraine is , much less Crimea, and somehow I doubt many would give there own lives or treasure to re-capture Crimea for Ukraine to again kill people in. my guess is the number who think that is worth a nuclear war and death of most Americans is pretty low--outside DC. the war crowd thinks differently here and it controls both fake "parties". 

the sole purpose of the US in Ukraine is to keep the war and the killing going as long as possible to weaken Russia.as a rival. All Russians know this and the US regime admits it's purpose is the destruction of Russia as a power as it destroyed Iraq as a power in the middle East. the worst possible outcome for America would be peace. We pay Ukrainians well to die for our proxy war. thinking Putin is too much of a weakling to strike back at the US. If they're wrong we all die, not just a lot of Russians and Ukrainians. In the meantime the war drumbeat goes 24/7 on the CIA-controlled press and any dissent will be silenced by steadily harsher methods. The Goebbels method. All power to the state and all good citizens of the same mind. Mind control makes governing much easier.  

[unicorn]

4 hours ago, tassojunior said:

Ukraine signed a treaty in 2014 to end the civil war in Dombas after voters overwhelmingly voted for separation in two provinces (other provinces voted to stay in Ukraine)....

 

Factually wrong, as I'm fairly sure you know. First of all, the "vote" in the Donbas occurred only after the Russian invasion, with "voters" under the watchful eyes of armed Russian soldiers.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/23/europe/occupied-ukraine-referendum-russia-intl-hnk/index.html

Secondly, that agreement was never passed in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_settlement_of_political_crisis_in_Ukraine

Russian Federation:
Refused to sign 

What Russia did agree to was to respect the 1994 borders in return for Ukraine surrendering their nuclear weapons to Russia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#:~:text=The "Budapest Memorandum" is actually,States%2C United Kingdom and Russia.

According to the three memoranda,[6] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia, and that they agreed to the following:

Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[7]
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.
Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by the signatory of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against the signatory.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments