Freshboys, Dreamboys Hot Male- Not many customers?

[alvnv]

@macaroni21 What do you think is the actual number of sex purchases by tourists, based on your observation, that is significantly lower than 330 a day (apps, massages and bars combined)?

[floridarob]

7 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

where they waste much less time and effort of the endless hunting for unsatisfactory sex.

Plenty of stories about paid unsatisfactory sex too.....

But I agree with what you wrote. There are a lot of gay saunas in Brazil with no MB's,,,, but after getting what you want so easily....and being OK with paying, there's no comparison.

But there's always the "I don't need to pay for sex" people....that should really be paying double the rate 😝

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, 10tazione said:

 

- Even if someone likes Pizza, can you lure him to eat Pizza every day? 

 

yes but there are also those who don't like pizza like me and still salivating at thought of pizza at Madrid Tavern

[fedssocr]

and then you have to account for the people who eat several pizzas each day

[macaroni21]

14 hours ago, 10tazione said:

I have no idea but my feeling would be towards 5%. But then we all live in a social bubble that makes estimating the general population so difficult...

- Businessman: do they even have time to off guys?

I want to say the maximum potential is not 100%.

 

Good morning! Merry Christmas to all. And what do I do first thing? I come and check this forum. It's like opening Christmas presents (in lieu of the fact that nobody gives me Christmas presents anymore   )  It's a bit sad, actually.

Anyway, I notice that so far neither of us have referenced the post we're discussing. It is this one: The gogo business: untapped potential

The question is: what percentage of gay male visitors to Thailand would be open to buying sex? I used an assumption of 20% in my post, but @10tazione thinks 5%. It could well be, but my sense is that while it may be 5% or even 3% when one is in one's home city, when one is in a foreign country with a much higher degree of anonymity, the percentage goes up. Does it go up to 20%?  Or to 15%.... we can only guess.

I agree that even if there is X percent who are open to buying sex while in Thailand, it doesn't mean that all the X percent will buy, and do so once a day. So, here's another variable. What fraction of this X percent will actually buy each day? I think, if the bars and massage parlours market themselves well and price themselves attractively (within cost reasons) we can easily find half or more of that X percent converting interest/desire to actual purchase each day. 

That the bars and massage parlours are nowhere near getting half through their doors tells us that they are not marketing themselves as well as they should.

Businessmen, if they have a mind to, can make time, especially in the evenings, for bars and offs. I used to travel quite a bit on business to many countries and I can say this with confidence. Often, they extend their stays an extra day or so to "unwind" from the stress of the business meetings. Not far from their minds is that a business trip is an expenses-paid trip. They're hardly spending any of their personal money, and thus to them throwing unspent money in bars and on boys and girls barely hurts the pocket.

In our very own Silom-Surawong area, Thaniya Road is a good example. The scene there rose on the backs of Japanese businessmen. 

 

[macaroni21]

14 hours ago, alvnv said:

@macaroni21 What do you think is the actual number of sex purchases by tourists, based on your observation, that is significantly lower than 330 a day (apps, massages and bars combined)?

Gogo bars - I think in total 50 - 60 offs per night in high season. How do I get this estimate? In the bigger bars (Dream Boy, Jupiter, Moonlight) about 10 boys per night. If we watch the room carefully, we may see about 3 boys taken out each hour (4, at a stretch). Multiply this by 3 hours (10pm to 1 am) and we get 9 - 12 offs. I round it off to 10.

Smaller bars (Fresh, Hotmale, Banana) I think 5 offs a night. 

I haven't sat long enough in Tawan to estimate whether it's more like a bigger bar or a smaller one.

Add them all up and we get 50 - 60 offs a night from all the gogo bars.

Massage parlours - difficult to estimate since we seldom see other customers around when we visit. However, the fact that we seldom see other customers can also mean that there are not that many. When I ask around, however, I do find that visitors to Thailand buy from massage parlours at least as often as from gogo bars. So, if I really have to hazard a (wild) guess, I'd say 80 - 100 massage bookings a day from tourists. 

When I do see other customers in massage parlours, they are more often than not a local Thai. This is also noteworthy. The parlours continue to get custom from locals whereas the gogo bars (in Bangkok, at least) have lost all their local customers. In fact, outside of the Silom Road and Surawong Road cluster, I think the majority of massage customers e.g. in Saphan Khwai or Plukjit are local. I say this is interesting because it shows how bad the gogo bars are that they can lose a whole section of the market.

Apps? - even more difficult to estimate, but just about everyone I know tells me it's more trouble than they are worth, in a country with an unfamiliar language.

 

 

[macaroni21]

9 hours ago, fedssocr said:

and then you have to account for the people who eat several pizzas each day

I actually know someone who's a kind of computer geek who can spend days coding away at his desk, and sleeps in a sofa in the same room. For food, he orders in, and he's told me that he can order pizza and coke for several meals in a row. For a change once in a while, he orders a burger and Dr Pepper.

[reader]

I believe your number for Freshboys is quite low, although probably about right for Hot Male show bar (some nights the HM beer bar below has more 🙂)

As for massage shops in Silom-Surawong, I think your way on the low side. On Silom Soi 6 alone you can find 70+ guys working in the six shops on any given day. Being friendly with a handful of them, each guy averages at least a few customers per day and sometimes 3-4 in high season. Add to that all the other shops in the area and you're easily in the 250-300 zone.

Speaking from my not inconsiderable contribution to the effort, I agree that locals make up the bulk of the customer base in Saphan Kwai but I don't see how that reflects on the go-go bar business. Two different types of business. Many guys patronize both.

 

[jason1975]

17 minutes ago, reader said:

I believe your number for Freshboys is quite low, although probably about right for Hot Male show bar (some nights the HM beer bar below has more 🙂

I know why! Haha

[macaroni21]

3 hours ago, reader said:

On Silom Soi 6 alone you can find 70+ guys working in the six shops on any given day. Being friendly with a handful of them, each guy averages at least a few customers per day and sometimes 3-4 in high season. Add to that all the other shops in the area and you're easily in the 250-300 zone.

Speaking from my not inconsiderable contribution to the effort, I agree that locals make up the bulk of the customer base in Saphan Kwai but I don't see how that reflects on the go-go bar business. Two different types of business. Many guys patronize both.

 

I reckon you're including Prime in the "Silom 6" shops? They definitely have a roaring business and I would certainly believe the average masseur there gets 3 - 4 customers a day. But the reports I hear are that most of the time there is no sex, so that doesn't count in my sex-buyer column. They do foot massages too, and I don't know if foot massages are included in your 3 - 4 a day. The other Silom 6 shops I have passed by many times; I rarely see any customer go in or come out of them. 

>I don't see how that reflects on the go-go bar business.

The massage and gogo businesses compete for the horny customer. At least the massage places with a sexual finish do. To the extent that a tourist is satisfied, say, in the afternoon with a sex massage, he might not feel a need to spend money at a gogo bar. 

What you're saying kind of confirms something I have observed too. The sex business is now primarily served by massage shops (maybe it has always been, but even if it has always been, I see the trend as increasingly so). The gogo bar businesses are failing to compete with the massage businesses for the horny customer.

[reader]

2 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

I reckon you're including Prime in the "Silom 6" shops? They definitely have a roaring business and I would certainly believe the average masseur there gets 3 - 4 customers a day.

No, I am not including Prime Massage. I'm only including the six shops before he dogleg turn. As you know, Prime is not a full-service shop.

5 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

The other Silom 6 shops I have passed by many times; I rarely see any customer go in or come out of them.

I spent a lot of time in those shops on my last two trips and I keep in touch with guys who work in two of them so I feel very confident in my estimates.

Besides Soi 6, you have multiple shops on Surawong Rd., Silom Rd., Soi Saladeang and the Silom Plaza (Best and Arena). When I left in late November, business in most of the shops appeared to be brisk.

12 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

The massage and gogo businesses compete for the horny customer. At least the massage places with a sexual finish do. To the extent that a tourist is satisfied, say, in the afternoon with a sex massage, he might not feel a need to spend money at a gogo bar.

Judging by some recent and current trip reports, members are partaking in both on a daily basis.

14 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

What you're saying kind of confirms something I have observed too. The sex business is now primarily served by massage shops (maybe it has always been, but even if it has always been, I see the trend as increasingly so). The gogo bar businesses are failing to compete with the massage businesses for the horny customer.

I agree that the massage business historically serves more customers, but I don't believe the bar business is failing. It's temporarily deprived of a historically strong source of customers from China. When that business returns--and it will--the fate of the bars will be known.

[zoomomancs]

I am getting positive reports of more customers in Bangkok and Pattaya and I will see for myself when I arrive there in 29 days. My favourite bars are Freshboys in Bangkok and Picky Bar in Boyztown. 

[vinapu]

15 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Good morning! Merry Christmas to all. And what do I do first thing? I come and check this forum.

 

you were not alone

[macaroni21]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:53 AM, reader said:

No, I am not including Prime Massage. I'm only including the six shops before he dogleg turn. As you know, Prime is not a full-service shop.

Six shops before the dogleg? I only have four on my map (https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2022/12/22/map-of-silom-surawong-area-december-2022/), so I apparently missed two.

Do you happen to recall the names and relative order of the shops (right side or road/left side of road), so I can update the map?

[reader]

Will be glad to oblige when I'm next in town. I believe two are on the left side and four on the right. With the completion of the new 9-Teen shop on left, that will bring the total to seven.

From what I'm told by those who work there, the Quarter Hotel at the end of Soi 6 (dogleg turn) has provided increased foot traffic which is already reported to be brisk with the advent of high season.

The two shops I'm most familiar with (Ma Ha and The Paradise) are situated on the right side, opposite Silom Alley 8.

 

[reader]

Just spoke with one of the guys who works on Soi 6. He provided me with updated information of shops:

LEFT SIDE (from Silom):

9-Teen (under renovation)

Relax Massage

RIGHT SIDE (from Silom)

Center Point Massage (mixed)

Ma Ha Massage

The Paradise 

M-Star Massage

I may have misunderstood some of our LINE conversation so I can't guarantee the accuracy. When I'm again in town, I'll confirm the above information.                  

[fedssocr]

9-Teen under renovation already? Didn't it just open?

[khaolakguy]

41 minutes ago, fedssocr said:

9-Teen under renovation already? Didn't it just open?

It opened round the corner in Silom Road itself a couple of months ago. I thought that was going to be their new premises, but perhaps it's just temporary while the old premises are renovated.

[Keithambrose]

I wandered down soi 6 last night. Not many people around, though it was late. Nothing of interest in Nature Boy, and New Twilight, whatever it is now called, was closed. 

[PeterRS]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:53 AM, reader said:

I agree that the massage business historically serves more customers, but I don't believe the bar business is failing. It's temporarily deprived of a historically strong source of customers from China. When that business returns--and it will--the fate of the bars will be known.

I used to chat with quite a number of visitors from Singapore and Taiwan - and occasionally Japan. They came to Bangkok primarily for sex, but not for gogo bars. Before Babylon finally closed its doors, they would usually go either to a sauna or for a massage first. Many would satisfy their needs there. They'd then go out for dinner before some would hit the bars primarily to see the shows. Few were interested in watching gogo boys strut their stuff. Then some would hit DJ Station and another disco or two to dance until closing time.

In other words, the impression i received - one that is reinforced by comments on sites like the Blowing Wind Travel section and from friends in both Singapore and Taipei - was that for the relatively new and younger Asian tourist, gogo bars are not of major interest. Massage with HE was much more so. 

As for the many mainland Chinese, has anyone actually seen a lot in the gogo bars? If you have, how do you know that they are from the mainland rather than from Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong or elsewhere from the Chinese diaspora? That said, several years ago I did see a few handsome, tall, slim mainland guys in a Hong Kong sauna. One told me they had come on a week-end trip to Hong Kong mainly for luxury good shopping and going to a gay disco. They'd only hit the sauna because it was close to their hotel. They reminded me of some of the gorgeous guys I used to see in Beijing's Destination Club.

So when the mainlanders do finally arrive - and I don't believe they will come in any number until 2024 - I just do not see them being a major boost to the gogo bars.

[macaroni21]

@reader Much obliged for any information you can provide, whenever you have it. But even from your informant's list, I see I do not have Ma Ha or Center Point (I don't even remember seeing these names anywhere) but I do have a Natural Massage on their right side of the soi as one enters from Silom Road.

As for 9-Teen, are we saying that it had an original location on Soi 6, which is now under renovation,  and the shop facing Silom Road is actually their second shop?

[macaroni21]

@PeterRS I get similar comments.

In my July visit I had the opportunity to chat over dinner with friends of friends who were from Malaysia and Singapore . In my recent visit, I had some casual conversation with a group of Taiwanese guys who were outside Raya Hotel and a bit shellshocked to see Soi Twilight boarded up.

The Malaysians and Singaporeans were older, and in their words, "dance clubs are no longer our scene", so they no longer go to Soi 2. (it remains obvious to us however that lots of 20ish, 30ish even 40ish Asians still flock to Soi 2). They said they mostly get their thrills from erotic massages, though they may still take a boy from a bar if they had not had "satisfaction" in the day. But their other comments about bars reinforced my impression that they are put off by their prices and bored by divas in the shows.

I can understand why some may say boys strutting their stuff in bars don't interest them; that would be logical since they are not intending to take an off for the night. 

What I learned is that their main interest in the bars, if they go, would be either  (a) to see live porn (if available), or (b) to ogle at fine specimens of manhood (Moonlight and Jupiter models) To this, there were comments that the prices are still unattractive for what little they get to see (no nudity from the models), especially since there's plenty of free porn online.

From the Taiwanese, the conversation was much briefer, and I learned less. My key take-away was that they had come from a massage parlour (VCK) they said  - so I assume they'd had their rocks off already by the time they made it down to the boarded-up Soi Twilight. As for why they were interested in gogo bars, I didn't ask, but it seemed quite likely that their motives were similar to the Malaysians and Singaporeans, looking for an explicit show rather than to off boys for the night.

[macaroni21]

41 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

As for the many mainland Chinese, has anyone actually seen a lot in the gogo bars?

I have vivid memories of 2 shows in which members of the audience were invited on stage. One memory was from a bar on Twilight - but I can't remember which bar, could have been X-boys or Fresh Boys. The other memory was from Dream Boy in 2019 in its first Patpong Soi 2 location. On both these occasions, the boys who went on stage were droolable-beautiful, and on the Dream Boy occasion, the boy took off his shirt too. I almost fainted. 

On being invited onto the stage and asked by the performer or mamasan where they were from, they said (into the mic) they were from China. The Taiwanese would not say "China". They would say "Taiwan".

Of course, my sample tells us nothing about how common they are in the bars, but they're definitely there and will be once borders open again.

By the way, I have seen gay dance clubs in the big Chinese cities, (or at least gay nights) and they can challenge Soi 2 in terms of crowds. So, yes, there is a huge market.

[reader]

3 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

As for 9-Teen, are we saying that it had an original location on Soi 6, which is now under renovation,  and the shop facing Silom Road is actually their second shop?

9-Teen opened earlier this year in a shop fronting on Silom Rd., just beyond Soi 6. That is the location that some members have reported on in recent months.

From what I am told, the owners have since taken over what was once a restaurant on Soi 6 and are now reportedly renovating it into a massage shop. What their intentions are for the original shop on Silom Rd. is unknown.

[reader]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

As for the many mainland Chinese, has anyone actually seen a lot in the gogo bars? If you have, how do you know that they are from the mainland rather than from Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong or elsewhere from the Chinese diaspora?

I talk with guys who work the massage shops regularly and they are reporting frequent "Chinese" customers. While it's indeed possible as you say that they're from elsewhere, neither can you be definitely sure they're from the mainland.

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So when the mainlanders do finally arrive - and I don't believe they will come in any number until 2024 - I just do not see them being a major boost to the gogo bars.

Again, you could be correct but with the Thai government announcing today that no special restrictions will be placed on them (and that the government is considering offering free, voluntary vaccinations on arrival to those from China and elsewhere) only time will determine how this all plays out. I believe the mainland Chinese will begin arriving in significant numbers in '23.