Report on Phuket

[vinapu]

8 minutes ago, Boy69 said:

 

I doubt any boy will agree for 2000 Baht per day for LT , 2500 is the minimum. My last visit Vietnamese boy in BKK agreed to my offer for 3000 Baht per day for 10 days trip with me I doubt he would agree for less than that.

I think it's possible, all boils to negotiating. Longer time , lower per day fee may be. It may also depend on who initiated idea , if it was boy , we are in better negotiating position

[BiggusDikkus]

12 minutes ago, Boy69 said:

3000 Baht per day for 10 days trip

I guess it pays to be a butterfly

[BiggusDikkus]

3 minutes ago, vinapu said:

I think it's possible, all boils to negotiating. Longer time , lower per day fee may be. It may also depend on who initiated idea , if it was boy , we are in better negotiating position

Very helpful. Thank you!

[bkkmfj2648]

12 hours ago, vinapu said:

Third consideration is length of stay. Resident has is easy as has time to search and even more important has time to built pool of  available  guys , not to mention getting volume discount.

This is SO true.  Now that I live here I can take it slow and decide with whom I want to make my regulars.  Prior to retiring here - I felt rushed to take an off because each day that I did not was a day closer to when my flight to return back to Europe was approaching.  So, I tried to maximize my acquisitions during my vacation.  Now, I am lucky if I have 3 per week and that is ok with me - no rush, better selection, and less pressure.  For the monetary part, I pay on the upper acceptable range as I have got to know many of the guys and I check up on them regularly and their income streams are VERY erratic.  It is VERY rare that they "get lucky" every single day.  Sometimes they don't have a customer for 4 days.  I definitely feel for them.

[PeterRS]

46 minutes ago, Gaybutton said:

We'll probably always call them tips.  But I think most of us realize they are in reality demands,  That can be negotiated, but since when does anyone negotiate true tips?

What I give to a waiter in a restaurant - that's a tip.  What I give to a delivery boy - that's a tip.  What I give to a boy I've taken off - that used to be a tip.  Now it is a minimum expected fee.

They have to be called tips because in Thailand the provision of sexual services at a fee is illegal. A reality of which a few may still not be aware. 

I see your point - but do not fully agree with the comparisons. At a restaurant the bill for your food and drinks already includes wages for all the staff. Many waiters hope for something extra in the form of a tip but have no guarantee. And clearly no waiter is in a position to negotiate a tip. But most will still be earning a liveable wage. If they find it's not, then they move on to another restaurant or elsewhere.

I do not know what basic wage, if any, the boys get from working in the various types of bar. But I'm pretty sure that it does not compare to most other service businesses as it will be far from a liveable amount. So they are not only expected to generate income for the bar from inflated drinks prices and off fees, they have to earn their own "tips" on top. I also have no doubt that most of the boys discuss what tips they get from customers and this leads to a minimum expectation. But like the waiter, they have no guarantee. Whatever a boy may ask for, it's a negotiable amount dependant on quite a number of factors. As you write, it is merely an "expected" amount but to a considerable extent it is dependent on all the various aspects of supply and demand. Same now with the apps.

I do agree that the situation was different 30 - 40 years ago though. In those times all the boys westerners came across in the gogo and host bars were Thais from very poor upcountry families. There were no mobile phones and fancy clothes so much of what they "earned" went back to their families. "Tips" were very much dependent on a boy's attractiveness to customers and how well he performed during the off. In my experience "tips" were never discussed in advance and I can recall only one occasion (of many!) when a boy asked for a bit more than offered. 

My comments are based almost exclusively on Bangkok because I have little experience of offs in Pattaya.

[12is12]

Terms reflect attitude. I wldnt use "demands", bcs a sprmrkt doesnt "demand" prices; it charges them.

Legality aside, I view (unforced) sex services as legit. A provider shld b accorded respect as any human being and business. He charges a certain fee, and - as in any business transaction - a potential client may chose whether to pay or to negotiate.

Not only in the context of sex service, when I travel to such countries, I prefer to avoid haggling. It's my cntrbution to the re-distribution of wealth btw the dvlpd wrld and the un-dvlpd one.

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

........ I have got to know many of the guys and I check up on them regularly and their income streams are VERY erratic.  It is VERY rare that they "get lucky" every single day.  Sometimes they don't have a customer for 4 days.  I definitely feel for them.

that's still not bad. One of boys in Bangkok I know for years told me he is lucky if he has 5 offs per month, he is on bit older side though.

While I too tend to tip of upper range but we need to remind ourselves from time to time we are NOT responsible for guys income stream.

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, 12is12 said:

 

Not only in the context of sex service, when I travel to such countries, I prefer to avoid haggling. It's my cntrbution to the re-distribution of wealth btw the dvlpd wrld and the un-dvlpd one.

+1

also haggling tend to kill the joy for me although sometimes it's necessary when quotation is out of blue. In such cases I counteroffer and then it's usually take it or no deal.

[Gaybutton]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

At a restaurant the bill for your food and drinks already includes wages for all the staff.

Yes if the bill includes a service charge.  Just how much out that service charge ends up in your waiter's pocket - your guess is as good as mine.

I think it is still called a tip because that it what it was always called and what the English word for anything else might be is irrelevant.  But no matter what it is called I, for one, am not about to pay those kinds of prices.  I do believe in being generous with the boys, especially since the boys are the main reason many on these boards go to Thailand in the first place.  But as I said, my personal generosity is just that - generosity, not stupidity.  I'm not about to have a bar dictate to me how much I am expected to give to a boy.  That is between me and the boy.

I also don't know why people try to justify the much higher prices in Bangkok by saying it is much more expensive for these boys to live in Bangkok.  Is it?  Has anyone actually investigated how much it really does cost these boys to live in Bangkok compared to Pattaya or any other Thai go-go bar city or do people simply assume that because that is what has been posted for many years on these boards?  If living in Bangkok really is so much more expensive for the boys, when did that happen?  It wasn't that way years ago.

In any case, those of you willing to pay those prices, fine with me. 

[vinapu]

6 hours ago, Gaybutton said:

Yes if the bill includes a service charge.  Just how much out that service charge ends up in your waiter's pocket - your guess is as good as mine.

.........

I'm not about to have a bar dictate to me how much I am expected to give to a boy.  That is between me and the boy.

 

it may actually vary widely depending on venue, On last trip I asked quite a few boys how much of drink price they are getting and answers were between 20 and 100

......

as for second issue we need to remember that not only informed and generous farangs are bar clients.  Some punters may not have a clue and some may assume even that off fee includes boy  or girl service ( I heard it more than once, is not that strange as apparently this is how it works in Japan - you pay once , all in ) so by establishing some minimum fee bars are protecting boys interests. Stories about few Indians taking escort for one off  fee and expecting  service for all of them circulate in Pattaya regularly.

[Gaybutton]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

Some punters may not have a clue and some may assume even that off fee includes boy  or girl service

I understand, but that's not my problem.  If the bar or boy has encountered such a problem, then they need to make it clear to the customer how it works.  No problem about that, but I have a big problem if the bar tries to dictate to me how much to give to the boy.  It's a different story if the customer asks the bar how much to give. 

If I am looking for something unusual, then I can understand the boy telling me how much he wants for it.  Then it's my choice whether or not to accept his price.  The boy telling me, not the bar.  I'm not interested in informing anyone other than the boy himself what I am looking for.  For sure I am not about to inform some mama-san unless I am looking for something so off-the-wall that the mama-san is likely to be able to tell me which boy would be willing.

In any case, if it really is a tip, then it's my decision how much the tip should be.  If I am told how much to give, then now it is no longer a tip, but a fee.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, Gaybutton said:

 

In any case, if it really is a tip, then it's my decision how much the tip should be.  If I am told how much to give, then now it is no longer a tip, but a fee.

It is a fee indeed. If it was tip some punter could have a good fuck and then leave boy with nothing or 10 baht  using exact sentence from your line " is a tip, then it's my decision how much the tip should be."

[Gaybutton]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

It is a fee indeed. If it was tip some punter could have a good fuck and then leave boy with nothing or 10 baht  using exact sentence from your line " is a tip, then it's my decision how much the tip should be."

That is extremely rare, but I have actually witnessed that sort of thing happen.  Some may remember the Kaos go-go bar in Sunee Plaza - very long gone now.  I became friendly with one of the dancers, June.  A farang customer called him over to sit with him.  The farang spent the next hour publicly groping him to the point it was obvious June was embarrassed and humiliated.  Then the farang gave him a tip.  20 baht!  I was furious and I had seen this farang before, so he knew damned well how much Thai money is worth.  I went over and gave June 100 baht right in front of the farang and said I just gave him one fifth of what you should have given him.  The farang was completely unfazed.

A few days later I was back in the bar.  That farang was not there.  June told me that same farang made an arrangement for June to come to his room one afternoon.  June went.  When he got there and knocked on the door, the farang opened the door and told June he already has a boy inside, then he shut the door in June's face - not even giving him baht bus fare. 

That was the last time I ever saw or heard anything about that guy.  I hope somewhere along the way he did that to the wrong boy and got the shit beaten out of him, but I never saw him again.  I asked June why, knowing the kind of person this farang was, did he agree to go to the man's room.  He said he needed the money.

So yes, no question that people like that are out there.  Fortunately people like that are quite rare.  Even if the bar had told him how much he should tip, do you truly believe he would have complied?  I don't.  I think he would have done the same thing no matter what he was told and probably continued doing that wherever he went.

Again, fortunately that kind of behavior is extremely rare and does not happen often enough to change my personal opinion about tipping.  I have a feeling nobody reading this board would ever dream of treating a boy that way and probably has never seen anyone do that sort of thing.  But I cannot argue that it never happens, especially when I witnessed it myself.

[vinapu]

13 minutes ago, Gaybutton said:

  I have a feeling nobody reading this board would ever dream of treating a boy that way and probably has never seen anyone do that sort of thing.  

you got it right, we mostly discuss tip to high, no too low.

but I have similar ,not as drastic story from BBB. I had hots for some guy, offed him few times and went early to off him again. He was sitting and drinking with some Oriental lady already. I tried to outwait her , then watched the show and probably past midnight gave up , taking another guy hoping mine got offed or at least tipped handsomely.

Next day I return , he was available and took him home. told him about waiting and asked him about off and tip. Answer was no off and 100 ( one hundred) baht for being prevented from off for whole evening. He lost 1900 as I'd tip him 2000.

It's why on my last trip I did not take any offense when while sitting with boy in HotMale mamasan came and asked me if I'm taking guy because somebody else is interested.

I said no, tipped guy and he went with some guy 1/3 of my age and another boy from that bar.

[BiggusDikkus]

15 hours ago, vinapu said:

One of boys in Bangkok I know for years told me he is lucky if he has 5 offs per month

Comments like this are what convince me that offering 2,000 baht per day to a service provider in Pattaya to join me for five days of partying in Bangkok would be a good deal for both sides. Five days guaranteed income. Five days of free restaurant food and room service. Five days with a pool, pool deck, fitness center and other hotel amenities at your feet. Nightly partying at Bangkok's most happening gay nightlife venues.

Of course, said service provider might be thinking, "You want me to be seen in public with you at The White Party all weekend long and pretend I'm having fun, then go back to your hotel and try even harder to pretend I'm having fun while you take your sweet time fucking me, for only 10,000 baht?"

[BiggusDikkus]

41 minutes ago, Gaybutton said:

That is extremely rare, but I have actually witnessed that sort of thing happen.  Some may remember the Kaos go-go bar in Sunee Plaza - very long gone now.  I became friendly with one of the dancers, June.  A farang customer called him over to sit with him.  The farang spent the next hour publicly groping him to the point it was obvious June was embarrassed and humiliated.  Then the farang gave him a tip.  20 baht!  I was furious and I had seen this farang before, so he knew damned well how much Thai money is worth.  I went over and gave June 100 baht right in front of the farang and said I just gave him one fifth of what you should have given him.  The farang was completely unfazed.

A few days later I was back in the bar.  That farang was not there.  June told me that same farang made an arrangement for June to come to his room one afternoon.  June went.  When he got there and knocked on the door, the farang opened the door and told June he already has a boy inside, then he shut the door in June's face - not even giving him baht bus fare.

Man, these poor guys have really miserable jobs.

[vinapu]

16 minutes ago, BiggusDikkus said:

Comments like this are what convince me that offering 2,000 baht per day to a service provider in Pattaya to join me for five days of partying in Bangkok would be a good deal for both sides. Five days guaranteed income. Five days of free restaurant food and room service. Five days with a pool, pool deck, fitness center and other hotel amenities at your feet. Nightly partying at Bangkok's most happening gay nightlife venues.

Of course, said service provider might be thinking, "You want me to be seen in public with you at The White Party all weekend long and pretend I'm having fun, then go back to your hotel and try even harder to pretend I'm having fun while you take your sweet time fucking me, for only 10,000 baht?"

in my opinion your way of thinking is correct in both paragraphs above.

At end of day it's up to you to assess deal as good for you and up to boy to assess it as good for him.

make sure he enjoys all that partying in gay nighlife venues as he will have invisible mark on his forehead " I'm whore hired by that farang". Clear it with him up front. the same with fancy restaurants and other places. Some boys may like it , others not that much. How I know ? Because one of my guys once told me that in plain language only replacing word 'whore' with 'bar boy'.

Other thing you should mind is expenses. Guy may be thrilled you treat him to say 2186 baht dinner, other may think or even tell you " that was waste , we could have dinner for 1/3 of it and 2/3 you saved we could split in half". 

Third issue to consider is what my maternal grandmother described as 'poor people can't afford cheap things " . If your boy will feel  he was underpaid he may be pressing you for extra bonus at end and / or some gifts   every time you pass by fancy mall or store.  So hold to your offer firm, been there done that, last time as recently as 5 weeks ago.

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, Gaybutton said:

 I have a big problem if the bar tries to dictate to me how much to give to the boy.  It's a different story if the customer asks the bar how much to give. 

If I am looking for something unusual, then I can understand the boy telling me how much he wants for it.  Then it's my choice whether or not to accept his price.  The boy telling me, not the bar.  I'm not interested in informing anyone other than the boy himself what I am looking for.  For sure I am not about to inform some mama-san unless I am looking for something so off-the-wall that the mama-san is likely to be able to tell me which boy would be willing.

I agree. In all my years of visiting and then lliving in Bangkok, I have never been influenced by anything a mamasan has told me about tips. It's my decision, and since I never discussed in advance with the boys it was always what I decided. I always gave more than what I later read was the minimum. But then virtually always i had a great time.

1 hour ago, Gaybutton said:

That is extremely rare, but I have actually witnessed that sort of thing happen.  Some may remember the Kaos go-go bar in Sunee Plaza - very long gone now.  I became friendly with one of the dancers, June.  A farang customer called him over to sit with him.  The farang spent the next hour publicly groping him to the point it was obvious June was embarrassed and humiliated.  Then the farang gave him a tip.  20 baht!  I was furious and I had seen this farang before, so he knew damned well how much Thai money is worth

Sad to say i also know someone who did the same. Even more sadly he lived in Bangkok. He would regularly visit one bar and the boys knew not only that sitting with him would result in just one drink, one 20 baht note (occasionally 2) and no off. Very rarely he would arrange for one boy to visit him at his home on the outskirts of the city when he'd tip the lowest possible amount of around 1,000 baht and not pay for transport. It was hugely embarrassing and several people pointed this out to him. But he never changed.

[BiggusDikkus]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

in my opinion your way of thinking is correct in both paragraphs above.

At end of day it's up to you to assess deal as good for you and up to boy to assess it as good for him.

make sure he enjoys all that partying in gay nighlife venues as he will have invisible mark on his forehead " I'm whore hired by that farang". Clear it with him up front. the same with fancy restaurants and other places. Some boys may like it , others not that much. How I know ? Because one of my guys once told me that in plain language only replacing word 'whore' with 'bar boy'.

Other thing you should mind is expenses. Guy may be thrilled you treat him to say 2186 baht dinner, other may think or even tell you " that was waste , we could have dinner for 1/3 of it and 2/3 you saved we could split in half". 

Third issue to consider is what my maternal grandmother described as 'poor people can't afford cheap things " . If your boy will feel  he was underpaid he may be pressing you for extra bonus at end and / or some gifts   every time you pass by fancy mall or store.  So hold to your offer firm, been there done that, last time as recently as 5 weeks ago.

Thank you. You always bring really good advice to this forum.

BTW, I don't do fancy restaurants, only those in and around Soi 4, and maybe some street food stalls. My Thai friends and I, however, do enjoy room service dinners around 5 in the morning, after we've done our partying and bedroom gymnastics, and before we crawl back into bed and go to sleep. These dinners are always a highlight, a chance to go over all the things we did that day and look forward to tomorrow.

My Thai friends also seem to enjoy ordering drinks and maybe some food around the pool, though I'm rarely around to partake. I'm usually at a high-end coffee shop, the kind I've learned to go to by myself so as not to make anyone uncomfortable. So it works out. My friend can relax by the pool and feel like a tourist, and I can sip some high-end coffee made with Thailand-grown beans and feel like a tourist.