Cuba approves same sex marriage by a referendum

[PeterRS]

3 minutes ago, floridarob said:

I Tell that to the Mexicans, Central Americans among a lot of other places....the USA has been stirring up shit for as long as it's been the USA 😉

I should have added that i was referring to the period between the two World Wars when the USA adopted an isolationist policy.  Certainly a lot of shit has been stirred since the end of WWII.

I always wonder how George Bush Jnr has not been strangled in the media for his comment about his meeting with Putin. "I looked the man in his eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. . . I was able to get a sense of the soul of the man." That from the so-called leader of the free world!! God didn't help the world, unfortunately, as Iraq and the Middle East was to discover!

And do we yet know what Trump agreed with Putin during their unique one-on-one meeting in Helsinki with no others present apart from translators? Did he agree to Putin annexing more of Ukraine, I wonder? Another leader of the free world this time proved to be a liar, arrongant cheat, narcissistic, fraudster, racist - virtually a mafia boss. So much for the system of allegedly free elections!

[reader]

We always end up at square one, Peter. Whenever England needs help, it will always speed dial Washington. And Washington will respond. That’s the nature of the relationship between these once enemies. There exits no stronger international ties.

The rest of your histrionic babble amounts to shit when balanced against that fact.

[PeterRS]

15 hours ago, reader said:

The rest of your histrionic babble amounts to shit when balanced against that fact.

FIrst, my comments are not histrionic. They are fact! And anyone who fails to place the present in its historical context simply cannot understand the present. 

[reader]

Peter, my dear, this topic was about same sex marriage in Cuba. You authored the very first response to the OP as an excuse to indulge your penchant for bashing America. You’re obsessed with doing that, poor fellow.  This was a deliberate attempt to derail the discussion and now you’re dismayed because there are some members who call you out for it.

 

[PeterRS]

On 10/2/2022 at 8:55 AM, reader said:

Peter, my dear, this topic was about same sex marriage in Cuba. You authored the very first response to the OP as an excuse to indulge your penchant for bashing America. You’re obsessed with doing that, poor fellow.  This was a deliberate attempt to derail the discussion and now you’re dismayed because there are some members who call you out for it.

Any member can call me out for anything. That is the nature of a chat room when there are members with very differing views. You @reader are a valued contributor, yet you fail to accept that anything is or might be or might ever have been wrong with your country. I am far from obsessed about America. I have been equally critical about my country the UK, about the present state of its political system and its often despicable colonial past. But the UK, to my understanding, has precious little in its history that relates to Cuba.

I did not derail the discussion! I raised an issue about Cuba - the country stated in the thread. Let me remind you the OP started his post with the following - "I don't know a great deal about Cuba except from some Gay Cuban friends of mine." I also knew little but I am aware that the US Congress seems to hate the island. I questioned why in recent history the US has imposed often crippling sanctions against the island. For what reason? Some members provided useful answers of which I, for one, was not aware. You, on the other hand, take this question to be another in what you seem to think is "America bashing". Please read my posts carefully before you comment on them  There was zero "deliberate attempt" to derail the discussion! In case you had not realised it, several members more or less agreed with what I wrote!

Lastly, I am far from your "dear" ot your "poor fellow". Please do not demean other posters.

[reader]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

But the UK, to my understanding, has precious little in its history that relates to Cuba.

My point exactly. You derailed topic to scratch your itch. 
 

 

[reader]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I questioned why in recent history the US has imposed often crippling sanctions against the island. For what reason?

Lastly, I am far from your "dear" ot your "poor fellow.”

If an avowed enemy was placing nuclear weapons 90 miles from your shores, I’d hope to hell you’d support crippling sanctions. 

But in spite of your hard on  for Americans, you’ll always remain “my dear fellow.” 

 

[PeterRS]

16 minutes ago, reader said:

If an avowed enemy was placing nuclear weapons 90 miles from your shores, I’d hope to hell you’d support crippling sanctions.

I totally agree. But lest you have forgotten that was 60 years ago!! Thanks to Kennedy and his brother, the solution to that problem was solved once Kruschev accepted it. The Soviet Union has been dead for more than 30 years. Why therefore have the sanctions continued for no explicable reason? Other members have given some answers to that question. You give the impression there is an explicable reason but all you do is look back into history! Yet you have excoriated me for suggesting that history is "histrionic babble amounting to shit"!

If Cuba was a problem for the USA 60 years ago and remains so now, the USA's double standard is illustrated by the present state of its relations following its long and horrific war in Indo China. This ended a decade after the Cuban crisis - almost 50 years ago. Now the USA is happy to be friends with all three Indo-Chinese countries. Why not Cuba?

[reader]

Wasn’t the topic of this thread same sex marriage in Cuba, my dear Peter?

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, reader said:

Wasn’t the topic of this thread same sex marriage in Cuba, my dear Peter?

Exactly - CUBA!

Haven't you noticed that many threads in this forum contain posts that concern part of a thread title but not all? And veering slightly off topic is very far from unusual? Didn't I mention my veering slightly off topic in my first post in this thread? Clearly you did not bother to read it. Or were you so busy reading many other sites in order to post endless verbatim quotes without any input from yourself? Not that these are irrelevant. But they clearly must take up a grest deal of your time.

Typically this is not the first time you have made allegations and totally failed to make any response to follow-up questions i have thereafter posed. Where is your response to my comments about Cuba and Indo-China? You have in the past accused me of not posting about nightlife activities in Bangkok. As i stated in response, I clearly informed you that I am in a long term relationship and so I have no desire to visit nightlife establishments here, and neither does my partner. What therefore should I post other than previous experiences, which I have done several times? You made no reply.

If you are going to make such comments about an individual poster and replies in his posting, at least have the decency to respond as in any reasonable discussion!

[reader]

I only add personal comments on news items if I believe they’re relevant, and not just to hear myself talk. I try to select items that may be of interest to those considering a trip to Thailand or already living there. It’s indeed time consuming but it’s become a hobby over time. I guess it’s not so unlike the way Richard Barrow shares his fondness for news and current events. But thank you for asking.

in all sincerity, I’m heartened that you have a committed partner. I’m sure your relationship brings  immeasurable joy to your life.

 

 

[PeterRS]

And still you do not reply to my comment and question - 

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

If Cuba was a problem for the USA 60 years ago and remains so now, the USA's double standard is illustrated by the present state of its relations following its long and horrific war in Indo China. This ended a decade after the Cuban crisis - almost 50 years ago. Now the USA is happy to be friends with all three Indo-Chinese countries. Why not Cuba?

I look forward to your answer, the more so as you stated my earlier comments were "histrionic babble" They were not!

[reader]

I see that you still want to play bad America card. No problem.

The answer is obvious: because its government chooses to. 

And as I look back again at your comments, there’s nothing germane to same sex marriage in Cuba. The bulk of it is indeed histrionic babble about what you hate about America. Tell us, do you hate American government for its actions on June 6, 1944?

I thought not.

 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, reader said:

I see that you still want to play bad America card. No problem.

The answer is obvious: because its government chooses to. 

And as I look back again at your comments, there’s nothing germane to same sex marriage in Cuba. The bulk of it is indeed histrionic babble about what you hate about America. Tell us, do you hate American government for its actions on June 6, 1944?

I thought not.

Oh, for goodness sake! What an insipid and basically irresponsible response! You still have not answered a very logical question - which other posters have agreed was perfectly logical - about why the USA continued to impose major sanctions on Cuba. You which merely brush this off as something that happened 60 years ago. Yet you have clearly stated that history is bunk! And now you even talk about the Normandy landings about 70 years ago! So much for "histrionic babble amounting to shit!" (Your words)

You also seem not to want to acknowledge that pre-Castro Cuba was massively corrupt, a haven for organised crime, illegal casinos, with press censorhipand with virtually all senior government and military officials heavily invoved in gambling and the drug trade. Yet the USA supported President Bautista and supplied his foul regime with planes, ships, tanks and even napalm to use against the Castro rebels.

And you still fail to state why there are no sanctions on America's enemies in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia? Was it because the USA tried to invade Cuba and failed? Yet they invaded all three Indo-Chinese nations with many millions slaughtered, lost the wars - yet no sanctions whatever? 

You are very good at accusing others and never backing up your own often outlandish claims. Give it up, for you only make yourself seem foolish!

Still you accuse me of being anti-American when I have written time after time after time after time that I am not. Can you not read? More than that, I have given specific examples of where America has done exceptional acts. Yet you have this bee in your bonnet and you will not let it go. But then neither will I let go of criticisms of any country, the more so when you never back up your absurd claims.

[reader]

My dear fellow, you say that you’re not ant-American but all your talk betrays that. I’d have some respect for your views if you simply admitted your bias. Since you can’t, I don’t give a crap about anything you babble on about. 

You may well be the most aristocratic poster to ever grace these pages.

 But I shouldn’t complain too much. You give me a reason to log on and see what new windy pomposities you managed to post. You provide a certain modicum of comic relief. And you always use so many extraneous words to say it. 😃

 

[PeterRS]

23 minutes ago, reader said:

My dear fellow, you say that you’re not ant-American but all your talk betrays that. I’d have some respect for your views if you simply admitted your bias. Since you can’t, I don’t give a crap about anything you babble on about. 

You may well be the most aristocratic poster to ever grace these pages.

 But I shouldn’t complain too much. You give me a reason to log on and see what new windy pomposities you managed to post. You provide a certain modicum of comic relief. And you always use so many extraneous words to say it. 😃

Still you refuse to answer my questions. And that is clearly because you have absolutely no answer! Your posts are meaningless. Stick to your hobby of copying Richard Barrow by reading and reposting here. That takes a lot less energy than making meaningful posts. Criticise all you llike. Construcctive criticism is always useful. Destructive criticism as you post (because you simpy fail to read my posts and conveniently forget my posting history - oh, i forgot - you regard anything that happened in the past as "histrionic babble amounting to shit") is seen as such by most of the posters here.

[reader]

Pompous even in anger!

 I do love it so 😀

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, reader said:

Tell us, do you hate American government for its actions on June 6, 1944?

I thought not.

 

neither do I 

but does it mean we should praise America for My Lai too ?

[PeterRS]

On 10/2/2022 at 8:55 AM, reader said:

You authored the very first response to the OP as an excuse to indulge your penchant for bashing America.

You still do not read - or you read and pretend you have not! I have certainly bashed American policy and the American system of government which I consier outdated and in need of reform. Equally, though, I have bashed precisely the same issues in the governmemt of the UK. But you decide to ignore that and have decided that I am anti-American and not anti-British! What nonsense!

As for bashing America in general, again you fail to read - or pretend not to have read - previous posts of mine. Over a period of 37 years I have visited the USA 34 or 35 times. Many were a result of business but more than a dozen were exclusively for vacations. Indeed, more were also for vacation if you consider that I added vacations to business trips. Once en route to meetings in New York, I stopped in Seattle and spent a quite lovely week sailing on a small boat from Ketchikan through the Inside Passage to Juneau and from there for 24 amazing hours in Glacier Bay. Other vacations have taken in New York (several times), Boston, Chicago, Louisville (more than a dozen times to see dear friends), Kittyhawk, Fort Myers (with friends whose condo sadly has been all but destroyed by last week's hurricane), Nashville, a week with a Taiwanese bf in New Orleans, Las Vegas, Jackson Hole and the stunning Grand Tetons, Denver, Los Angeles (several times again staying with friends), Honolulu and a fortnight's beach holiday in Kauai. I guess I may have seen more of the USA than you have!

Are these the actions of someone who bashes America? Of course they are not! So quit your lies! And whilst you are at it,  perhaps you will finally respond to the questions I have now asked several times about Cuba and Indo China.  But then of course, you won't for the simple reason you have no answers apart from writing its being government policy. Ha! That's called chickening out.

[reader]

Pomposity squared

[anddy]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:42 AM, PeterRS said:

Slightly off topic, I have never understood why the USA has imposed such strict sanctions against Cuba for so many decades.

Fully agree with you, makes zero (political) sense and is the epitome of hipocrisy. However, this pretty much explains it - "this is how things are done around here"

[reader]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

neither do I 

but does it mean we should praise America for My Lai too ?

No, of course we should not praise it. Why would you possibly suggest that anyone should? 

But here’s story of what very few know of the US helicopter pilot who turned his guns on My Lai attackers and adverted an even greater tragedy. The facts of My Lai are harrowing. The valor and courage of one man can not undo that. But his humanity in the face of this tragedy deserves to be known.

It is always tempting to cast the first stones. 

From Wikipedia 

Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. (April 15, 1943 – January 6, 2006) was a United States Army Major, and a former warrant officer in the 123rd Aviation Battalion of the 23rd Infantry Division. He is credited with ending the Mỹ Lai Massacre of the South Vietnamese village known as Sơn Mỹ on March 16, 1968, alongside and hierarchically above Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn.

During the massacre, Thompson and his Hiller OH-23 Raven crew, Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn, stopped a number of killings by threatening and blocking American officers and enlisted soldiers of Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd Infantry Division. Additionally, Thompson and his crew saved a number of Vietnamese civilians by personally escorting them away from advancing United States Army ground units and assuring their evacuation by air. Thompson reported the atrocities by radio several times while at Sơn Mỹ. Although these reports reached Task Force Barker operational headquarters, nothing was done to stop the massacre. After evacuating a child to a Quảng Ngãi hospital, Thompson angrily reported to his superiors at Task Force Barker headquarters that a massacre was occurring at Sơn Mỹ. Immediately following Thompson's report, Lieutenant Colonel Frank A. Barker ordered all ground units in Sơn Mỹ to cease search and destroy operations in the village.

In 1970, Thompson testified against those responsible for the Mỹ Lai Massacre. Twenty-six officers and enlisted soldiers, including William Calley and Ernest Medina, were charged with criminal offenses, but all were either acquitted or pardoned. Thompson was condemned and ostracized by many individuals in the United States military and government, as well as the public, for his role in the investigations and trials concerning the Mỹ Lai massacre. As a direct result of what he experienced, Thompson experienced posttraumatic stress disorder, alcoholism, divorce, and severe nightmare disorder.^[1] Despite the adversity he faced, he remained in the United States Army until November 1, 1983, then continued to make a living as a helicopter pilot in the Southeastern United States.

In 1998, 30 years after the massacre, Thompson and the two other members of his crew, Andreotta and Colburn, were awarded the Soldier's Medal (Andreotta posthumously), the United States Army's highest award for bravery not involving direct contact with the enemy.^[2] Thompson and Colburn returned to Sơn Mỹ to meet with survivors of the massacre at the Sơn Mỹ Memorial in 1998. In 1999, Thompson and Colburn received the Peace Abbey Courage of Conscience Award.

 

Thompson recounted at an academic conference on Mỹ Lai held at Tulane University in December, 1994: "We kept flying back and forth, reconning in front and in the rear, and it didn't take very long until we started noticing the large number of bodies everywhere. Everywhere we'd look, we'd see bodies. These were infants, two-, three-, four-, five-year-olds, women, very old men, no draft-age people whatsoever."^[9]

Thompson and his crew, who at first thought the artillery bombardment caused all the civilian deaths on the ground, became aware that Americans were murdering the villagers after a wounded civilian woman they requested medical evacuation for, Nguyễn Thị Tẩu (chín Tẩu), was murdered right in front of them by Captain Medina, the commanding officer of the operation. According to Lawrence Colburn,

Then we saw a young girl about twenty years old lying on the grass. We could see that she was unarmed and wounded in the chest. We marked her with smoke because we saw a squad not too far away. The smoke was green, meaning it's safe to approach. Red would have meant the opposite. We were hovering six feet off the ground not more than twenty feet away when Captain Medina came over, kicked her, stepped back, and finished her off. He did it right in front of us. When we saw Medina do that, it clicked. It was our guys doing the killing.^[10]

Immediately after the execution, Thompson discovered the irrigation ditch full of Calley's victims. Thompson then radioed a message to accompanying gunships and Task Force Barker headquarters, "It looks to me like there's an awful lot of unnecessary killing going on down there. Something ain't right about this. There's bodies everywhere. There's a ditch full of bodies that we saw. There's something wrong here."^[3]: 75 Thompson spotted movement in the irrigation ditch, indicating that there were civilians alive in it. He immediately landed to assist the victims. Lieutenant Calley approached Thompson and the two exchanged an uneasy conversation.^[3]: 77

Thompson: What's going on here, Lieutenant?

Calley: This is my business.

Thompson: What is this? Who are these people?

Calley: Just following orders.

Thompson: Orders? Whose orders?

Calley: Just following...

Thompson: But, these are human beings, unarmed civilians, sir.

Calley: Look Thompson, this is my show. I'm in charge here. It ain't your concern.

Thompson: Yeah, great job.

Calley: You better get back in that chopper and mind your own business.

Thompson: You ain't heard the last of this!

As Thompson was speaking to Calley, Calley's subordinate, Sergeant David Mitchell, fired into the irrigation ditch, killing any civilians still moving.^[3]: 78 Thompson and his crew, in disbelief and shock, returned to their helicopter and began searching for civilians they could save. They spotted a group of women, children, and old men in the northeast corner of the village fleeing from advancing soldiers from the 2nd Platoon, Company C. Immediately realizing that the soldiers intended to murder the Vietnamese civilians, Thompson landed his helicopter between the advancing ground unit and the villagers.^[3]: 79 He turned to Colburn and Andreotta and ordered them to shoot the men in the 2nd Platoon if they attempted to kill any of the fleeing civilians.^[3]: 81 While Colburn and Andreotta trained their guns on the 2nd Platoon, Thompson located as many civilians as he could, persuaded them to follow him to a safer location, and ensured their evacuation with the help of two UH-1 Huey pilots he was friends with.^{[5]: 138–139}

Low on fuel, Thompson was forced to return to a supply airstrip miles outside the village. Before they departed the village, Andreotta spotted movement in the irrigation ditch full of bodies. According to Trent Angers in The Forgotten Hero of My Lai: The Hugh Thompson Story (2014),

The helicopter looped around then set down quickly near the edge of the ditch. Andreotta had maintained visual contact with the spot where he saw the movement, and he darted out of the aircraft as soon as it touched the ground. Thompson got out and guarded one side of the chopper and Colburn guarded the other. Andreotta had to walk on several badly mangled bodies to get where he was going. He lifted a corpse with several bullet holes in the torso and there, lying under it, was a child, age five or six, covered in blood and obviously in a state of shock.

The child, Do Ba, was pulled from the irrigation ditch and after failing to find any more survivors, Thompson's crew transported the child to a hospital in Quảng Ngãi.^[3]: 215

After transporting the child to the hospital, Thompson flew to the Task Force Barker headquarters (Landing Zone Dottie), and angrily reported the massacre to his superiors.^{[5]: 176–179} His report quickly reached Lieutenant Colonel Frank Barker, the operation's overall commander. Barker immediately radioed ground forces to cease the "killings". After the helicopter was refueled, Thompson's crew returned to the village to ensure that no more civilians were being murdered and that the wounded were evacuated.^[3]: 89

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.}

[floridarob]

This thread is certainly in in the right forum, The Beer Bar .....who's buying the next round 🍸😉

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, reader said:

But here’s story of what very few know of the US helicopter pilot who turned his guns on My Lai attackers and adverted an even greater tragedy. The facts of My Lai are harrowing. The valor and courage of one man can not undo that. But his humanity in the face of this tragedy deserves to be known.

 

Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. (April 15, 1943 – January 6, 2006) was a United States Army Major,

 

I heard that story in My Lai of all places but not sure they mentioned name, now we know, thank you.

[PeterRS]

8 hours ago, reader said:

Pomposity squared

Typical troll-like post. @reader makes several unsubstantiated allegations on posts based totally on facts. After several requests, he then fails to respond to any questions raised by his responses. Then he goes further to attack the original poster. Was Beachlover his teacher?

5 hours ago, reader said:

But here’s story of what very few know of the US helicopter pilot who turned his guns on My Lai attackers and adverted an even greater tragedy. The facts of My Lai are harrowing. The valor and courage of one man can not undo that. But his humanity in the face of this tragedy deserves to be known.

So now you spend most of an entire post going back over history after calling history "histrionic babble" - that is, history that you just don't like to recall. I agree. The valour of that one individual helicopter pilot was a superb example of the heroism that can happen sometimes during horrific wartime actions. But it can not and does not take anything away from the slaughter of more than 500 innocent civilians at My Lai with young girls first being raped before being put to death. Does one hero make up for the massacre of more than 500 souls? @reader only wants to remember historical facts that glorify the USA.

Where were those heroes when the US and its CIA slaughtered many million more in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia - two of these wars being totally illegal as they were not authorised by Congress. Indeed, information was deliberately withheld from Congress. But then @reader does not want these discussed because they put the USA in a bad light. And he still will not justify the crippling US sanctions on Cuba apart from referring to the Soviet Union positioning nuclear weapons there 60 years ago. 

No one can cherry-pick history. Facts are facts - the good and the bad. Acknowledgement of both is vital if countries are to move forward.