Cuba approves same sex marriage by a referendum

[KYTOP]

I don't know a great deal about Cuba except from some Gay Cuban friends of mine. One of them left Cuba for Spain, and eventually US, a couple decades ago because he was gay. I will have to ask them about their take on this. I was surprised it was supported by their President and therefore the Communist Party. Without the Communist Party's support there never could have been a referendum.  I know some guys here had expressed a desire to visit Cuba during the period Obama had opened up on visiting there.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1125344835/cuba-approves-same-sex-marriage

[PeterRS]

Slightly off topic, I have never understood why the USA has imposed such strict sanctions against Cuba for so many decades. Wasn't Cuba a den of vice for the mafia prior to the Revolution? Did the USA tolerate all that? I can understand the action against the island following the nuclear weapons discovery but that matter was resolved through back channel diplomacy between Kennedy and Kruschev. 6 decades have now passed. The Soviet Union ended  3 decades ago. The USA fought a long war against Vietnam which ended almost 5 decades ago. The countries are now friends with almost $100 billion of trade between them even though Vietnam is run by a one-party communist government.

Cuba offers many of its people two items which cost a fortune for many citizens on the USA - free education and free healthcare. It also has a higher literacy rate than that in the USA. Why is the country crippled by continuing US sanctions? Why does Washington regard it in the same light as Iran?

[vinapu]

26 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

 I have never understood why the USA has imposed such strict sanctions against Cuba for so many decades.

I'm fairly sure nobody in Washington DC  neither knows nor understands either.

28 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Why does Washington regard it in the same light as Iran?

or that paragon of human rights and religious freedom Saudi Arabia 

[floridarob]

The Bacardi Family still holds a grudge, Their distillery was nationalized by Fidel. They are the muscle (money) behind keeping Cuba the way it is until Cuba recognizes and returns properties that they took, which won't happen the way they want it to.

 

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

free education and free healthcare. It also has a higher literacy rate than that in the USA.

Don't believe everything you read....When Michael Moore went there for his movie "Sicko", I couldn't believe what a rosy life he  painted of their healthcare.  

[reader]

10 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Slightly off topic, I have never understood why the USA has imposed such strict sanctions against Cuba for so many decades. 

Cubans who can actually reach US soil are allowed to remain. Cuban Americans represent one of Florida’s strongest voting blocs. They tend to maintain conservative political positions, including maintaining sanctions against Cuba. This was never more evident when Clinton and Obama made attempts to liberalize relations with the Castro regimes.

They must know something about Cuban politics that some do not.
 

[floridarob]

2 hours ago, reader said:

Cubans who can actually reach US soil are allowed to remain.

That ended in 2017......the Generation that came in the 1980 during the Mariel Boatlift and earlier were adamant to see Cuba sink into the ocean. They were the voting block you speak of because they had no one in Cuba and lately, they have been dying off. The more recent ones that have arrived in the last 20 yrs or so, still have family and friends there and want to see normalized relations between the 2 countries....which was happening until, as one of Trumps 1st acts in office, put travel restrictions back in place. I'm sure this order came direct from Putin 😉

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, reader said:

Cubans who can actually reach US soil are allowed to remain. Cuban Americans represent one of Florida’s strongest voting blocs. They tend to maintain conservative political positions, including maintaining sanctions against Cuba. This was never more evident when Clinton and Obama made attempts to liberalize relations with the Castro regimes.

They must know something about Cuban politics that some do not.
 

Whatever it may be, fact is that  USA policy is taken hostage by that group as USA was and is much friendlier with much nastier regimes than Cuban and for example geographically close to our hearts , did not have any problems of supporting so called Democratic Kampuchea i.e   Pol Pot's murderous regime claim on UN seat representing Cambodia well after Khmer Rouge were chased to jungles by Vietnamese. We will not even mention Saddam Husain nomination to a Man of The Year of Time magazine , Somosas , Truillos, and numerous African kleptocrats and Arab autocrats.  

[KYTOP]

4 hours ago, reader said:

Cubans who can actually reach US soil are allowed to remain.
 

This was called the Wet Foot, Dry Foot Policy. As long as they got to shore they could stay. If intercepted on water they were returned.

This years old policy was ended by President Obama as one of his last acts in office. Many Cubans are now trying to enter through Mexico like other Latin Americans.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/01/12/obama-ends-wet-foot-dry-foot-policy-cubans/96505172/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-ending-wet-foot-dry-foot-policy-allowing-cubans-reaching-us-soil-to-stay-and-receive-residency/2017/01/12/21bbaac2-d912-11e6-b8b2-cb5164beba6b_story.html

The US's past Cuban policy was determined by the Old Cuban Families in Florida, like floridarob referenced, that even included those rich Cubans that fled when Castro's revolution took hold. This included the Bay of Pigs Cubans and the Financiers of that boondoggle.   These Cubans had a lot of political power in Florida, and some still today, that was enough to sway an election in either direction. Florida is also important in national elections and the Cuban block voters can determine the winner.  As the memory of the past fades the policy can change. I think Obama thought it had changed enough to open relations more but it really had not changed enough yet. Thus when Trump was elected those same old Money Cubans had a sway with him to pull back again. The onset of Havana syndrome gave him an opening to close things backup.

[reader]

I understand that America can not do anything right.

What I can’t understand is why so many citizens of so many other countries risk life and limb to come to America.

Stupid America twice saved Europe from one of its own nations. How dumb was that.

Crazy Americans saved much of east Asia from rampaging Japan. FDR and Truman should have been impeached.

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, reader said:

I understand that America can not do anything right.

What I can’t understand is why so many citizens of so many other countries risk life and limb to come to America.

Stupid America twice saved Europe from one of its own nations. How dumb was that.

Crazy Americans saved much of east Asia from rampaging Japan. FDR and Truman should have been impeached.

It's nice to defend one's country reputation and USA achievements are plenty , main being green color on American money, magnet to many you mentioned in 2nd sentence.

But your blanket is too big, we are talking about Cuba here, not whole world.

If you think USA's Cuban policy is right all I can say I feel jealous.

[PeterRS]

9 hours ago, KYTOP said:

The US's past Cuban policy was determined by the Old Cuban Families in Florida, like floridarob referenced, that even included those rich Cubans that fled when Castro's revolution took hold. This included the Bay of Pigs Cubans and the Financiers of that boondoggle.   These Cubans had a lot of political power in Florida, and some still today, that was enough to sway an election in either direction. Florida is also important in national elections and the Cuban block voters can determine the winner.

I find it more than staggering that one group of businessmen whose businesses in pre-Castro Cuba seemed mostly be be slightly shady at best (or who took advantage of and did little for Cuban labour) and another group of individual exiles who number a mere fraction of those living in America are able to exert such influence on the politics of both parties. It's another example of US politics being massively out of date and requiring a complete overhaul as I have suggested in previous posts.

Lest I am accused again of USA bashing, what has been happening re the politics in my country - the UK - is another total shambles. That a party leader can be elected by a tiny fraction of an ageing die-hard electorate is nonsense. Sterling crashing through the floor in her first actual work week is an example of the type of idiot this procedure can elect to high office.   

 

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, reader said:

I understand that America can not do anything right.

What I can’t understand is why so many citizens of so many other countries risk life and limb to come to America.

 

 

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

 

Lest I am accused again of USA bashing, what has been happening re the politics in my country - the UK - is another total shambles. 

Don't worry guys , in time both countries will be Ok, just like before

[reader]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

But your blanket is too big, we are talking about Cuba here, not whole world.

If we’re just talking about Cuba then why are we mentioning Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Cambodia and various African countries.

The inescapable truth is that when shit hits fan, it will be America that its allies—and once enemies—will call first. 

And if folks want to pile on, add America’s decision to provide arms and intelligence to Ukraine that’s enabling it to remain in the game against against Putin’s desire to resurrect the Soviet Union peacemeal. 

Of course America has made its share of stupid choices. But much of the free word continues to depend on its largess to keep sea lanes open and belligerents at bay. When bad guys are at your door, you’re not going to be reciting a litany of past sins to those coming to your rescue.

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, reader said:

When bad guys are at your door, you’re not going to be reciting a litany of past sins to those coming to your rescue.

of course not , when we passed school bully we always smiled at him and start making our grimaces as soon as he went away.

I usually paid off to have one or two as friends. Good news about them was that the did not want other bullies to grew too strong and were looking for allies among us weaklings.

I always felt elevated because biggest of them bullies , Tiger ( not the same Tiger from Tawan) was living in the same building but basking in the shadow of his glory did not stop me from screaming obscenities at him when he couldn't see me

[Latbear4blk]

15 hours ago, vinapu said:

It's nice to defend one's country reputation and USA achievements are plenty , main being green color on American money, magnet to many you mentioned in 2nd sentence.

I respectfully disagree. Patriotism is one of the most shameful and laziest values. Too many Gringos are quick to judge other nations flaws, while staying fully blind at their own miseries. Few things are more pathetic than someone not recognizing criticism and bringing up some lame excuse.

[reader]

There’s no excuse more lame in the face of an enemy like Putin than cowardice. The suffering he’s wrought upon thr people of Ukraine has risen to crimes against humanity. The last thing Ukrainians, and those who’ll follow if Putin isn’t stopped, need are whining pinkos.

Does anyone really think Putin appetite will be sated by what he has managed to gain so far. Somehow I just don’t believe he’ll be dissuaded by biting criticism.

[Mavica]

8 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Too many Gringos are quick to judge other nations flaws, while staying fully blind at their own miseries. 

You can say the same about nationals from just about every country.  

[reader]

9 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Too many Gringos are quick to judge other nations flaws, while staying fully blind at their own miseries. 

Just the kind of mindset that enabled Hitler and could further enable Putin. It didn’t work for the British in the run up to WWII. Thank God for the tenacity of Churchill. And be grateful that the Ukrainians don’t lack courage.

[PeterRS]

22 hours ago, reader said:

If we’re just talking about Cuba then why are we mentioning Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Cambodia and various African countries.

The inescapable truth is that when shit hits fan, it will be America that its allies—and once enemies—will call first. 

And if folks want to pile on, add America’s decision to provide arms and intelligence to Ukraine that’s enabling it to remain in the game against against Putin’s desire to resurrect the Soviet Union peacemeal. 

Of course America has made its share of stupid choices. But much of the free word continues to depend on its largess to keep sea lanes open and belligerents at bay. When bad guys are at your door, you’re not going to be reciting a litany of past sins to those coming to your rescue.

It's understandabe that those living in America or who sympathise with America's actions throughout the world will jump to its defence in the face of both allegations and the truth of its history. Let's not forget that Americans wanted nothing to do with the world outside its borders until it was attacked by Japan in December 1941. The strategy of its war and the supreme heroism of Americans in fighting that war should never be forgotten. The same way Britons should remain forever proud of the way they fought the early part of the war in Europe all but on their own. 

Once peace arrived, both America and Britain changed. Britain was bankrupt. Anti-colonial America pushed it and other countries to give up their colonies - with the exception of France whose murderous reign in Indo-China was allowed to continue. America was suddenly thrust into the role of leadership of the free world. Instead of acknowledging that the Soviet Union had lost almost 27 million in fighting the Nazis whereas the USA had lost around 300,000 fighting the Japanese, communism became the evil enemy. With the Soviets getting their own atomic bomb and a China, exhausted by more than a century of war and humiliation largely at the hands of colonial powers, taken by Mao from America's "friend" Chiang Kai-shek, the spectre of world communism formed America's view of the outside world. 

No one can or should call what America then did over the next few decades "stupid choices." If that is the case, then the present crisis with Iran is a result of the "stupid choice" America and its British ally made in forcibly removing the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in the early 1950s in favour of propping up the corrupt, undemocratic Shah. The reason? They wanted the flow of cheap oil to continue. Everything now happening in Iran results from that one action. The Korean War was largely a result of a "stupid choice" - or perhaps a "stupid error" is more exact - made by the US Secretary of State Acheson. Was the murder of 3 million Vietnamese a "stupid choice"? Were the affects of American action and the rise of the murdering ISIS in Iraq a "stupid choice"? Is Biden's announced policy of unilaterally abandoning a legally binding Treaty to respect a one-China policy a "stupid choice" that could thrust this region into a war that could all but anihilate Taiwan as we know it? Blustering into a situation that it helped to create by reneging on the agreements in the Cairo Declaration and ratified in the Potsdam Conference whereby post-war China would be returned to China could result in horrific consequences. Does Biden seriously believe that his countrymen will enter into a war with China almost as far away as Vietnam was? How can the USA counter China's massive forces that are vastly more prepared and lethal than Putin's in Ukraine?

We must all accept and take responsibility for the "stupid choices" of our own nations throughout history. Britain must face up to the consequences of its annexing so many nations during its age of empire. What is happening today in Myanmar is a direct result of Britain's "stupid choices". Britain's partition of India was not merely a "stupid choice", the way it was put into effect was a criminal act that resulted in the deaths of millions. Belgium, Portugal, France, Holland and Japan must do likewise, given that their overseas colonisation was arguably much worse for the peoples colonised. In this respect Germany has given us all an example in the concrete actions it has taken after its "stupid choices" in the Nazi era.

Nor can many countries today dismiss the horrific actions and results over centuries of the slave trade, no more than we can the effect of tearing children from their birth parents in Canada, Australia and perhaps elsewhere to place them with unknown parents assumed to be far better able to bring them up and make them decent citizens. Just as we as individuals have to own up to the mistakes and "stupid choices" we have made in our own pasts, so must nations. 

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, reader said:

There’s no excuse more lame in the face of an enemy like Putin than cowardice. The suffering he’s wrought upon thr people of Ukraine has risen to crimes against humanity. The last thing Ukrainians, and those who’ll follow if Putin isn’t stopped, need are whining pinkos.

Does anyone really think Putin appetite will be sated by what he has managed to gain so far. Somehow I just don’t believe he’ll be dissuaded by biting criticism.

no, only raw external force will stop him or internal unrest, whatever will comes first  but it will come

[vinapu]

16 minutes ago, reader said:

Just the kind of mindset that enabled Hitler and could further enable Putin. It didn’t work for the British in the run up to WWII. Thank God for the tenacity of Churchill. And be grateful that the Ukrainians don’t lack courage.

+1

[reader]

All one, Peter, but nations must now look to the future and decide where they stand In face of aggression at this very moment in Ukraine that also affects the economies of Europe and the wider world. Putin is either stopped in his tracks or he’ll continue his plans for further annexations. 

[vinapu]

11 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

 a one-China policy

I wonder why world assumes one China policy means  absorbing Taiwan into mainland. Who knows, perhaps one day it will be mainland who joins democratic Republic of China. Impossible? If somebody told us in 1987 that in 5 years USSR won't be there any more what we were saying then?

 

15 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

How can the USA counter China's massive forces that are vastly more prepared and lethal than Putin's in Ukraine?

 

  until those forces are tested in the battle we will not know how prepared and lethal they are. Weren't Russian thinking in February that Kiev will be theirs in few days ?

[Mavica]

16 minutes ago, vinapu said:

 until those forces are tested in the battle we will not know how prepared and lethal they are. Weren't Russian thinking in February that Kiev will be theirs in few days ?

We don't yet know if Russia sent the best elements of its military to fight in the Ukraine.  But, if it has, I think we've learned how so inept that military is.  Were it not for Russia having nuclear warfare capabilities, the "West" could have wiped-out much of Russia's military in very short order.  My "gut" is telling me China's military is far superior, better equipped and trained than Russia's.  If Putin is not 'taken out' by individuals close to him ... I don't doubt we will see Russia's use of limited theater nuclear weapons, and the West responding likewise.  Indeed, this is a precarious point in history.  😟

[floridarob]

3 hours ago, Mavica said:

I don't doubt we will see Russia's use of limited theater nuclear weapons,

I heard someone comment that the wind blows towards Russia, so they'd have consequences of their own doing, and Putin knows that.

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Let's not forget that Americans wanted nothing to do with the world outside its borders until it was attacked by Japan in December 1941.

Tell that to the Mexicans, Central Americans among a lot of other places....the USA has been stirring up shit for as long as it's been the USA 😉

Since we're talking about Cuba.....I'll bet the Cubans of today wished their ancestors had chosen differently:

After the United States seized Cuba from Spain during the Spanish–American War, the U.S. flag flew from January 1, 1899, until independence was granted. On May 20, 1902, the Cuban national flag was hoisted as a symbol of independence and sovereignty.