Pattaya Questions, after Due Dilengence

[Gaybutton]

7 hours ago, floridarob said:

I just can't wrap my head around how the Thai's and others get farang's so brainwashed into supporting them financially.

I agree with every word you wrote in your post.  And yet over the years many of us have seen it happen time and time again and that is why I keep warning about it, in hopes the next one to fall into the trap won't be anyone who reads this board.

It is also common for farang to leave everything they have to a Thai go-go boy.  I've seen several times the farang passed away and the boy got a very substantial amount of money, enough to support him and his family for many years.  And yet in most instances within a year the boy was broke and right back in the bars - hoping to hit another jackpot.

The better educated they are and the better kind of job they have, the less likely that is to happen, but most farang who meet the boy of their dreams while on a 2 or 3 week holiday meet only bar boys.  Their own dream seems to have come true and they end up going to extraordinary lengths and tolerate things they would never tolerate from anyone else in trying not to lose it.  While they hope to walk hand-in-hand into the sunset and live blissfully happily ever after, does anyone need me to tell how often it actually ends up working out that way?

[BiggusDikkus]

7 hours ago, floridarob said:

I just can't wrap my head around how the Thai's and others get farang's so brainwashed into supporting them financially.

It's not brainwashing, it's infatuation. Love, or even a whiff of love, can be a powerful motivator. I highly recommend this documentary about a straight host bar in Osaka, where the hosts have a number of beautiful young women spending thousands of dollars a night -- even going into prostitution so they can maintain their spending. The hosts and the young women they are manipulating are brutally honest about what is really going on in these types of relationships. This documentary really opened my eyes. Please give it a watch. It's just amazing. 

 

[Guest guest_BenG1000]

Wow, thanks for sharing ... a true eye opener; sadly I fell for it twice since I started going to BKK years ago.

At home it's all work and no play, then you go to BKK and it's truly Neverland.

I'm going to watch this again before my first night out in Pattaya LOL 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, BenG1000 said:

I'm going to watch this again before my first night out in Pattaya LOL 

As is obvious even from that vdo, Japan is a highly organised society hidebound by rules from virtually cradle to grave. The sex trade is equally organised and, as mentioned at the start of the vdo, it is a huge commercial business. I read somewhere that overall the business of sex in all its forms accounts for up to 3% of GDP - double that of the country's agricultural sector.

These male host bars have been around for many decades but were primarily to give older women the chance to spend time with handsome young hosts. But they have proliferated hugely as much younger Japanese women rebelled against the long established rules about marriage and children. Starting in the boom years of the 1980s, they realised that their salaries were giving them independence. Like wolf packs they travelled to cities like Hong Kong and Singapore with the sole objective of buying luxury goods which are very expensive in Japan. Over a week-end the savings they could make in the Louis Vuitton and Cartier boutiques more than paid for their air tickets and their rooms in 5-star hotels. Increasingly they were chosing to stay much longer with their parents and spend their increasing salaries on themselves. 

In such a male dominated country, the host bars offer an escape - at a very considerable cost. As one host says, "We sell dreams." Although another says early on that he could easily fuck the patrons 365 nights a week, another stresses that it should never come to that because then the dream ends and the girl never comes back to the Club. The host's job is to get the girls to keep coming back and to keep spending on Dom Perignon and the expensive cognacs.

I know there are clubs like this for boys and girls in Thailand but foreigners will never find out about them. The commercialism of the host bars tourists visit in Bangkok and Pattaya are in their infancy when it comes to getting customers to splash the cash. While we may object to 400 baht for a drink and a few hundred baht to spend half an hour sitting with a boy, that pales into insignificance when you see the Japanese women in that video spending US$2,000 and a lot more for an evening being flattered by a young man they will only be able to dream about after she leaves. It all seems rather sad. At least here in Thailand the hosts and hostesses will readily ensure that your dreams materialise with a night of sex - and at a fraction of the cost. And you can go back the next evening!

[floridarob]

3 hours ago, BiggusDikkus said:

This documentary really opened my eyes. Please give it a watch. It's just amazing. 

One of my takeaways....That @vinapu and I wouldn't go with any of the hosts on that video 😆

Also, what is love and when someone SAYS they love you, what does it really mean....How many times have we lied to guys in bars only to go to other bars and say the same lies....like they pointed out in this video 😏

[vinapu]

29 minutes ago, floridarob said:

One of my takeaways....That @vinapu and I wouldn't go with any of the hosts on that video 😆
 

you got me interested  I need to watch it and confirm your findings. I watched few minutes in the middle and yes , based on that sample you are right ! It means one thing for sure , none of us is Japanese girl and we have better taste in men.

A-men

[gayinpattaya]

7 hours ago, Gaybutton said:

I'd like to know where he got that from.  Maybe he's right, but i would like to know his source.  I've never heard any such thing.  There is a royal residence on Pratumnak, rarely used, but I have no idea what that would have to do with Jomtien Complex which is nowhere near.  Does that mean all of Jomtien is royal land extending at least from Pratumnak to the beach?  The Jomtien Complex venues pay their rent to whom?

Again, maybe he's right, but that makes no sense to me.  Why would royal land mean just about anything goes except go-go bars?   If it really is royal property that doesn't allow go-go bars, then why don't the venues try petitioning to get that revoked?  Nothing to lose by trying.

Well, some venues pay their rent to the Jomtien Complex *office is just down from The Agate*. Others pay the building owners as some of the complex is privately owned. The complex is a racked. The rents are disgustingly high, and go up year on year. They will eventually destroy the complex, which will be a shame. I know of one complex owned bar now paying 75,000 Baht a month rent. And that doesn't include extra payments for use of outside space on the road. 

As for the land under the complex, I don't know the history but it is still zoned as residential because of either the proximity to Royal land, or it is actually royal land. 
 

[gayinpattaya]

double post....

Edited September 5, 2022 by gayinpattaya
double post

[12is12]

These farangs - who support young locals bcs they believe there's love btw them - why dont they move in together (in Thailand or at home) and get married (officially or not)? 

[vinapu]

48 minutes ago, 12is12 said:

These farangs - who support young locals bcs they believe there's love btw them - why dont they move in together (in Thailand or at home) and get married (officially or not)? 

probably because they realize that love is  just make-believe

[floridarob]

9 minutes ago, vinapu said:

probably because they realize that love is  just make-believe

Isn't that what love is ?

[12is12]

Vinapu, if they realize that - why the support?

[Londoner]

I tried to provide insights on a number of occasions on different threads but obviously my comments fell on stony ground. And I'm not going to repeat myself.

I know three LTR couples, two of them British/Thai, one of them a US citizen. They are similar- 60+ falang/late thirties or early forties Thais. Both parties seems happy to me.

If you keep your eyes open, you'll see such couples in the restaurants and malls of Pattaya. You won't confuse them with falangs with offed guys.

It works for some of us. Perhaps it shouldn't, but it does. Don't be dismissive of other peoples' experience and other peoples' lives. And don't confuse sex and love. I've enjoyed both in the last twenty-five years visiting Pattaya. and so I don't.

[12is12]

Londoner, I m not sure whether ur last post was aimed (also?) at me.

As far as I m concerned, ur comments didnt "fall on stony ground"; and I m not "dismissive" of anyone's preferences. In fact I wish all those involved all the best.

All I asked was why, at least in some cases, the love exhibited by support doesnt manifest itself also in togetherness.....

 

[Gaybutton]

1 hour ago, 12is12 said:

All I asked was why, at least in some cases, the love exhibited by support doesnt manifest itself also in togetherness.....

Maybe one reason is because if the relationship is already working well, for both, then why change it?

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Olddaddy]

6 hours ago, gayinpattaya said:

Well, some venues pay their rent to the Jomtien Complex *office is just down from The Agate*. Others pay the building owners as some of the complex is privately owned. The complex is a racked. The rents are disgustingly high, and go up year on year. They will eventually destroy the complex, which will be a shame. I know of one complex owned bar now paying 75,000 Baht a month rent. And that doesn't include extra payments for use of outside space on the road. 

As for the land under the complex, I don't know the history but it is still zoned as residential because of either the proximity to Royal land, or it is actually royal land. 
 

How do his make a profit??😳😳

[Londoner]

Thanks 12is12. The issue of relocation is a complex one. We've discussed it many times. I'll wait for another  thread before explaining.

[floridarob]

5 hours ago, Londoner said:

I know three LTR couples, two of them British/Thai, one of them a US citizen. They are similar- 60+ falang/late thirties or early forties Thais. Both parties seems happy to me.

I know a guy that won the lottery.....the successes are eclipsed by the fraud/failures.

Not saying it doesn't work....but go into it with eyes wide open, not rose colored glasses.

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, 12is12 said:

Vinapu, if they realize that - why the support?

that's the price for partial realization of their dreams and boys making them feeling good

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, floridarob said:

Isn't that what love is ?

yes, like my father used to say , love is light in our lives , marriage is a bill for that light 

[CurtisD]

If I were looking for a relationship a bar boy is the last place I would start in any country for a whole host of reasons.

I have never intended to get involved with any of the bar guys in Bangkok and, when I take a step back, the fact that I am now involved with Bangkok Guy to the extent that I am still surprises me.

As the relationship began in a bar my ability to help him financially is an inevitable part of the relationship. To ask if a bar boy would stay in a relationship without the financial support is, I think, fatuous. On their side, the need for financial support is a baked-in part of the reason they are there.

The more relevant question is whether the relationship can be one of a fair and equal exchange with respect and caring on both sides.

If the falang treats the guy as a sex doll, a trophy, or as bought property, or just generally fails to consider his needs, there will be no long term relationship. If the guy does not like or respect the falang, or if he thinks it is purely short term, then he is likely to view the falang as an ATM to be emptied as quickly as possible, and there will be no long term relationship.

However, if each likes and respects the other, both are transparent about their needs and the exchange of needs seems a fair trade, there is a chance it might work subject to the vicissitudes of all relationships including compatibility with each other’s friends and families and ability to co-locate.  

Again making it plain that I am aware that I do not have a full understanding of the situation, my perception is that if Bangkok Guy and I decided to go for an actual full time relationship the main problems are:

(i)               Ability to co-locate. I do not want to live in Thailand. Bangkok Guy is clear that he does not care where he lives as long as it is with me. That’s nice to hear, but not practical.

(ii)              Bangkok Guy’s responsibility to look after his mother and sister and possible wider family network ties.

It’s the second point where there are possible transparency issues around how much I am viewed as an ATM to be emptied as quickly as possible.

Bangkok Guy completely lacks a poker face. What he is thinking, his state of mind, is on his face, especially if you know him. It has the benefit of making communication easier.

When Bangkok Guy asks me for financial assistance he does so in one of three ways.

(i)               Completely openly and hopefully. This is his expression when he is discussing his own needs. He is approaching me as his friend to fulfill the financial part of my role in the relationship. He has always been very straightforward in these discussions and I enjoy them as I get a clear view into his circumstances and his hopes.

(ii)              Complete panic. This has only happened once during Covid when his part of the family couldn’t make their payment on the time-payment-tractor. It has only happened once and no one could fake the sheer panic on his face, let alone someone without a poker face.

(iii)            Reluctantly with submissive/concerned body language and a concerned face. On these occasions he is asking for help with something to do with the family, not himself.

The first two approaches are consistent with a relationship based on fair trade.

The third concerned/submissive approach is the one where suspicious minds could raise questions.

Does his expression indicate guilt as he knows he is pulling a con, or reluctance as he thinks it might strain our relationship, or frustration & reluctance as he resents having to bear the responsibility of looking after the family?

My guess, guess, is that it is some combination of the last two.

Bangkok Guy takes his responsibilities to his family seriously. He is a stoic and not one to complain. But just occasionally a look or the tone of voice lets it slip that he resents the responsibility and the demands it places on him. It shows in his schizophrenic attitude to his home town. On the one hand he loves its physical beauty and clean air, on the other hand going there to be with family is not his favorite thing.  

I also suspect that his family may view me as a family ATM. “Son, you have great success, bring ATM to family, now empty ATM while the going is good, falang so unreliable need to empty now” while Bangkok Guy does not see it this way.

I think Bangkok Guy wants a long term relationship. Misuse and abuse of the ATM is not consistent with that. My guess is that his family puts him in a difficult position.

I have had two long term relationships, the first of which was with a successful self-made guy from a quite dysfunctional family who, after he became successful, made his life very difficult with their demands for lifestyle uplift. I thought they were a pack of c#nts and would have cut them off, after all they cut him off when they found out he was gay, before he became successful which somehow overcame their distaste for gay, but they were his family and he needed their acceptance (worthless and self-centered though it was).

I suspect Bangkok Guy is in an analogous situation, although (i) his family are simply poor, only mildly dysfunctional and have no objection to him being gay and (ii) he is bound to them through the need to fulfill social norms more than through emotional dependence.

If I am right in this, if, then the risk is that Bangkok Guy decides at some point that his dream of a long term relationship is not going to happen, or that I will not give him enough assistance to start his own business and become independent, in which case he is exposed to a return to a low-and-unreliable market income and a hand-to-mouth existence, in which case he may as well empty the ATM while he can.  

Bangkok Guy and I need to maintain faith in each other. Without trust, there is nothing.

 

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, CurtisD said:

When Bangkok Guy asks me for financial assistance he does so in one of three ways.

The fact that you have 3 categories already of financial help....😲

I Consider a relationship when you live with each other....otherwise it remains friends with benefits.

[gayinpattaya]

9 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

How do his make a profit??😳😳

The owner mentioned doesn't make a profit. But some people have enough money to run them as a hobby.

[12is12]

CurtisD, how do/did u interact with these 2 LTR guys?

English, Thai, Translator?

[CurtisD]

5 hours ago, floridarob said:

The fact that you have 3 categories already of financial help....😲

These are not three different categories of financial help. 

These are three different tones in which Bangkok Guy asks for financial help. I am able to identify them because I pay attention. If I were not paying attention I probably would not notice the difference. 

5 hours ago, floridarob said:

I Consider a relationship when you live with each other....otherwise it remains friends with benefits.

Fair enough but in the context of my post somewhat redundant.  I did say ".. if Bangkok Guy and I decided to go for an actual full time relationship.."    I see the connection between Bangkok Guy and myself as a friendship which may progress to a full-blooded relationship at some point or may not. Not having been in this situation before I am playing it by ear.