Have your attitudes and behavior regarding Covid-19 changed recently?

[unicorn]

My domestic partner "Chris" and I have been on a cruise ship trip from Iceland to Boston for the last 2 weeks. We're amazed to see that many people, though not a majority, seem unwilling to adapt their views and behavior as new data and statistics become available. The week before we left, we heard the pubic health statistics from our chief medical officer for Los Angeles County on the radio. In our county of over 10 million people, there were 1100 (0.01% of the population) in the hospital who tested positive for the virus (despite an overall prevalence of 2% of people who were testing due to being in jobs which required routine testing). Of those testing positive, the vast majority had NO symptoms compatible with the virus, and were clearly there for other reasons (heart attack, stroke, kidney infection, broken hip, etc.). Of the fewer than 500 there with the virus and compatible symptoms, only a handful were in the ICU, ALL of them with serious underlying illness predating the virus. No reported deaths attributed to the virus. In other words, it's LESS serious than a common cold at this point. 

Yet we were warned that the Canadian government had decided in May that all cruise ship passengers had to be both vaccinated and tested within 48 hours prior to boarding, while we were still touring Iceland. Since I'm a physician, I prescribed Paxlovid for both of us, which we took for 4 days in my case and 3 days in his case prior to boarding, just so we wouldn't get infected just prior to boarding (analogous to PrEP before sex to avoid getting HIV). The Canadian government had made that decision in May and had vowed, at that time, that no way no how would they re-visit their policy prior to the Fall, no matter what! Strangely, that rule applied only to cruise ship passengers, but not to planes, trains, automobiles, or multiple ferries that ply the waters between the countries (for example, Bar Harbor ME to Yarmouth NL, Seattle WA or Port Angeles WA to Victoria BC, or across Lake Erie). 

I would imagine that most of the guests (our line markets to older people, so I'm suspecting the average age was around 65-70, though "Chris" and I are younger) apparently weren't worried about the virus much, as most didn't wear masks. One of the (gay) couples we met, however, wore KN-95 masks scrupulously, taking them off only when actively eating or drinking. Two days ago, I met one of the couple, and sure enough, one of them had a mild cough and tested positive (the other repeatedly tested negative). We had 3 days of Paxlovid left from our "PrEP," so I offered it for the positive symptomatic one, since he's 68. Sure enough, although studies have shown a 90% reduction in symptoms, he refused to take the Paxlovid (we gave it to his husband, who said his sick partner "couldn't explain" why he wouldn't take the pills), but his symptoms have already turned the corner without even taking the Paxlovid. (6 weeks ago, my 91 year-old step-mother also declined taking Paxlovid and got better quickly when she got her cough as well)

Also, as it turns out, Canada didn't enforce their law, and no one's vaccination status or test results prior to boarding were checked. I'm guessing that in the coming weeks, they'll update their laws to reflect their current practice. 

I will say that as new facts have emerged, I've changed my behavior and views immensely, but it looks as though a number of people haven't. I'd be curious to hear the perspective of anyone on the board who still wears masks, for instance. Why have a heightened worry about a virus which seems extremely mild? What, if anything, would convince those who are still masking to stop? Do they imagine that the virus will eventually be completely eradicated? (It won't, BTW) Would the virus have to be even less virulent? At this time, it seems the only harm from the virus is potential over-reaction of others to positive test results, so wrecked travel plans are the only potential consequence of infection...

[a-447]

"

13 hours ago, unicorn said:

I'd be curious to hear the perspective of anyone on the board who still wears masks, for instance. Why have a heightened worry about a virus which seems extremely mild? 

Long Covid scares me.

I know people who are still suffering long after they re-tested negative.

For them the virus has been anything but "extremely mild."

[Olddaddy]

I don't shake hands anymore AND when the moneyboys arrived in my room I made sure they washed their hands as soon as they arrived .

As for masks no I wouldn't wear a mask on a cruise ship, it's a bit hypocritical of me to expect others to do the same then I go around looking for dick to suck on or a butt to eat.

On another note how do you find travelling with your partner on a cruise ship with so many I presume all straight couples?

Are you able to mix ?

[Olddaddy]

11 minutes ago, a-447 said:

"

Long Covid scares me.

I know people who are still suffering long after they re-tested negative.

For them the virus has been anything but "extremely mild."

Exactly! I still have a sore throat from that I believe although the doctors won't admit it to me 

[unicorn]

26 minutes ago, a-447 said:

"

Long Covid scares me.

I know people who are still suffering long after they re-tested negative.

For them the virus has been anything but "extremely mild."

That's actually the most intelligent counter-argument I've heard. I guess if people are still getting "long Covid" with the current strain, that would be the one way in which the current strain is worse than any other colds we've had to deal with all of our lives (and will also never eradicate, at least not in our lifetimes). That being said, I haven't heard of anyone getting long Covid (over 3 months) with the latest strain (since January 2022 in the US). I've had a lot of colds which have kept me with a cough for weeks (I have asthma), but I haven't heard of people getting long Covid over the last several months. 

[unicorn]

22 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

I don't shake hands anymore AND when the moneyboys arrived in my room I made sure they washed their hands as soon as they arrived .

As for masks no I wouldn't wear a mask on a cruise ship, it's a bit hypocritical of me to expect others to do the same then I go around looking for dick to suck on or a butt to eat.

On another note how do you find travelling with your partner on a cruise ship with so many I presume all straight couples?

Are you able to mix ?

There's a designated gay-friendly bar (about 50% gay). We've socialized with mostly gay couples, but to a lesser extent with straight couples. This virus isn't spread with fomites/shaking hands, as proven by a study which came out almost exactly 2 years ago. If you don't shake hands, do so for viruses other than Covid (Norovirus almost certainly can be spread this way, possibly rhinoviruses as well--though that hasn't been studied). As I'm sure you're aware, there's a huge number of illnesses one can get from sucking dick and eating as... 😉

[unicorn]

26 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Exactly! I still have a sore throat from that I believe although the doctors won't admit it to me 

A sore throat has not been described as a symptom of long Covid:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html

I would look for an alternative diagnosis, seeing an ENT doctor if necessary. 

[Olddaddy]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

A sore throat has not been described as a symptom of long Covid:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html

I would look for an alternative diagnosis, seeing an ENT doctor if necessary. 

Oh I did last week ,$400 later .

He put a camera in my nose ,yep in my nostrils,1 minute then down my throat didn't feel a thing .

Nothing wrong he said ,a few callous type tonsil stones he said but nothing to worry about ,lessen  eating " hard" foods he said 

I guess it was all the "hard" dicks I sucked deep throated hitting the back of my throat 😂

[Riobard]

Following would be related to the Canadian public health officials’ view, not necessarily my own, and not a commentary on seriousness of COVID: 

It would be incumbent on the cruise ship to verify vaccination and test status at boarding. Ship crew are proxies for Canadian border officials that obviously cannot be abroad to check these requirements. That the company did not do so formally would reflect a break in the contract that underlies the privilege of docking at a Canadian port. It the fellow had been sick enough for ship sick bay the crew would be required to report a presumed (or confirmed, assuming sick bay had tests) symptomatic infection to Canada prior to docking, or required to report a subsequent outbreak if one occurred. Canada would have the discretionary prerogative to block excursions, but at that point if it had been determined by Canada that pre-boarding test checking had not been carried out for all embarking that would likely have put the Canadian excursion(s) in jeopardy for all. Therefore, the ship essentially played chicken with passengers’ itinerary and could have also incurred a huge penalty if the info were to come to light following an excursion that occurred after mandatory reporting had  not been honoured.

The marine distinction between ferries and passenger ships is likely due to the variations in time frames between pre-board testing and Canadian docking. As I understand it, the pre-board testing applies to both short-haul sails, say, New England to a Canadian Maritime province port and long-term sails such as 5-weeks from Asia to Vancouver. The idea being that a missed infection on boarding could rip through a ship more effectively and extensively compared to a same-day flight, ferry, etc. AFAIK the testing required, say, in Hong Kong, weeks prior as opposed to a port in, say, Alaska weeks later but that is closest to the previously mandated time frame for flights arriving in Canada. Therefore the time range between testing and docking could be very broad within the microscosm of a ship where transmission variables are already known to be different. 

Finally, if you were required to fulfill the ArriveCAN app completion prior to docking the fact that it was not checked by officials prior to Canadian port excursions does not mean the rule has changed. It remains obligatory and the app completion receipt may be checked. It appears this cruise fell through the cracks but, again, it was the liner’s responsibility to mitigate the chance of onboard infection from the get-go … from the perspective of the mandate intention however valid or not. 

[Guest]

 yes, attitude & behavior have recently changed as it seems pandemic overall is easing up and little discussion about a deadly new variant.

Now, my precautions are situational and based on numbers relative to my destination, usually from New York Times Covid dashboard.  While the “official” numbers (cases per 100,000) aren’t accurate due to home testing, etc - they are a good indicator of trends and a comparative reference point. 

That said - I always try to choose food & beverage options outdoors and always wear a mask on a plane or any public transit.  If indoors is only option for any venue, then I won’t linger beyond what I went for - whether for dinner or a rentboy sauna. 

The US is a Covid outlier and had one of the worst possible outcomes globally, mainly due to people refusing to wear masks or take basic precautions. Traveling through Europe this summer - many people still choosing to wear masks in appropriate settings without government orders…because it just makes sense. Americans don’t seem to understand that concept.

Covid seems normalized now for most - but people are still getting hospitalized & dying.  And yes, long Covid is a thing - see below.  No thanks 

More than 1 in 5 adult Covid survivors in the U.S. may develop long Covid, a C.D.C. study suggests.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/24/health/long-covid-infections.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[gayinpattaya]

Delta in 2021.
Omicron is Feb 2022. 
Never did masks. Never vaxed.
Arrived back in Thailand in May. Have been challenged once over a mask. Walked out. 

No my behaviour hasn't changed. I wash my hands when I arrive home and before eating. When I had a sniffle last week, I stayed at home to be socially responsible. 

It's nice to report that aside from the odd returning tourist who brings it up, this COVID stuff is long gone in Jomtien. The complex feels as it did in 2019, just a little quieter. 

[unicorn]

3 hours ago, Riobard said:

...Finally, if you were required to fulfill the ArriveCAN app completion prior to docking the fact that it was not checked by officials prior to Canadian port excursions does not mean the rule has changed. It remains obligatory and the app completion receipt may be checked. It appears this cruise fell through the cracks but, again, it was the liner’s responsibility to mitigate the chance of onboard infection from the get-go … from the perspective of the mandate intention however valid or not. 

Well, we were told that completing the ArriveCAN app was required. Once we were approved, we received a QR code, which we were told we'd need. However, there were no checks whatsoever on arrival (or on board). We even had to get tested the day before departure in Reykjavik, but that was a waste because it was never checked. There was only one test center in just about the whole country of Iceland, since almost all countries have dropped pre-testing requirements, with the exception being cruise ships going to Canada. More than likely, the only reason that singular requirement is still around is that Canadian authorities banged their fists on the table in May, pronouncing that under no circumstances would they revisit the policy before the Fall. 

The thought that the additional time on the cruise ship makes a difference also doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense. Should one be more concerned about 2000 cruise ship passengers which go to one or two ports and stay for a few hours? Or more thousands of people coming in by plane, train, car, or ferry, and staying for 10 days and going all over Canada? Or the 2% of the Canadian population that's probably already walking around with the virus? As our cruise demonstrated, one could test negative on stepping foot in the country, but be in the incubation period, and be highly contagious 2 days later. 

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, Slvkguy said:

 yes, attitude & behavior have recently changed as it seems pandemic overall is easing up and little discussion about a deadly new variant.

Now, my precautions are situational and based on numbers relative to my destination, usually from New York Times Covid dashboard.  While the “official” numbers (cases per 100,000) aren’t accurate due to home testing, etc - they are a good indicator of trends and a comparative reference point. 

That said - I always try to choose food & beverage options outdoors and always wear a mask on a plane or any public transit.  If indoors is only option for any venue, then I won’t linger beyond what I went for - whether for dinner or a rentboy sauna. 

The US is a Covid outlier and had one of the worst possible outcomes globally, mainly due to people refusing to wear masks or take basic precautions. Traveling through Europe this summer - many people still choosing to wear masks in appropriate settings without government orders…because it just makes sense. Americans don’t seem to understand that concept.

Covid seems normalized now for most - but people are still getting hospitalized & dying.  And yes, long Covid is a thing - see below.  No thanks 

More than 1 in 5 adult Covid survivors in the U.S. may develop long Covid, a C.D.C. study suggests.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/24/health/long-covid-infections.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Well, if anyone would bother to actually read the study referenced in that New York Times article... The NYT article was published in May, but the study was quite upfront in using pre-omicron data: "...A retrospective matched cohort design was used to analyze EHRs during March 2020–November 2021, from Cerner Real-World Data,* a national, deidentified data set of approximately 63.4 million unique adult records from 110 data contributors in the 50 states..." .

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7121e1.htm?s_cid=mm7121e1_e&ACSTrackingID=USCDC_921-DM82414&ACSTrackingLabel=MMWR Early Release - Vol. 71%2C May 24%2C 2022&deliveryName=USCDC_921-DM82414#contribAff

In other words, the data stopped well before the appearance of the current omicron strain. There is no data to refute my contention that long-Covid has not been a problem associated with the virus we're dealing with now. Yes, it was a major problem. It doesn't seem to be any longer. Almost all Americans have probably been exposed to the virus (probably almost everyone in the world). Fortunately 1 in 5 of us haven't had long Covid. 

Obviously, people are being hospitalized and dying--but not from this virus. The percentage of people testing positive for the virus in hospitals is usually about the same as that in the general public. Obviously, contracting the virus will not make a person immortal. People will still die. The virus, however, generally has nothing to do with the deaths. 

[Riobard]

Again, the ArriveCAN receipt not having been checked on landing in Halifax or St. John’s does not mean completing the app should not be obligatory. I don’t see the point in grousing about a requirement simply because it was not subject to the vigilance that authorities may not consistently apply. On all my arrivals to Canada this year I could not proceed to Immigration/Customs without a post-disembarking check of my ArriveCAN receipt. (I was also subject to random testing on 3 arrivals; that is not to say that I think that was warranted on top of pre-boarding testing abroad.)

The rules, I agree, are certainly not without flaws, but ArriveCAN primarily vets for vaccination (or medical exemption, etc) status, a requirement condition for both Canada and USA entry (still USA?). The mob bottleneck between landing and Immigration is reduced by showing the receipt as opposed to fumbling for other vaccination proof documents. The latter method was employed on arrival in Brazil in January where the actual vaccination proof had to be produced by hand, not embedded ahead of time in a system similar to ArriveCAN although an online health attestation was necessary for entry there. Hence, a slower queue on arrival in São Paulo. For example, 15 seconds average added vaxx checking time for merely 120 person-arrivals adds 30 minutes annoying queueing for everyone; it can really add up. In Montreal, one line for all flight arrivals. Eeesh. Had the cruise ship passengers been spot-checked at NS or NL port I suspect that the speedier method would have been appreciated. This is all simply to say that as long as checking is required, and more often than not carried out, some applications facilitate and accelerate the process. Holding the view that COVID vaccination should not be mandatory is a separate question. 

My main beef and accompanying empathy is related to the imposition on many older travellers to become smartphone/PC experts or have to rely on others to complete documents on their behalf. The anxiety associated with correctly implementing technology for smooth travel must be daunting. 

The argument that pre-travel testing requirements be either imposed or abandoned consistently across transport modes is persuasive. Sometimes the notion of ‘whataboutism’ holds water. 

The supposition of current 2% coronavirus infection point-prevalence is corroborated by fairly rapidly escalating cumulative uptick in nucleocapsid antibody seroprevalence this year (5-fold the official diagnosis-based tracking) as assessed by Canadian Blood Services surveillance of donors. Higher for younger and for materially disadvantaged, so yeah, don’t persecute the affluent old fogies on luxe cruises. 

I, myself, remain N protein-negative on the Roche assay and possess no natural immunity benefit to the extent there might be any at this juncture.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

Well, if anyone would bother to actually read the study referenced in that New York Times article..

I read it - you have no idea what’s coming next.  Nobody does - that is the point.  

But, here’s another article comparing Delta to Omicron long Covid  - less likely, still a thing 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00941-2/fulltext

 

[Riobard]

3 hours ago, Slvkguy said:

I read it - you have no idea what’s coming next.  Nobody does - that is the point.  

But, here’s another article comparing Delta to Omicron long Covid  - less likely, still a thing 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00941-2/fulltext

 

Interesting discussion. 

There appears to be a counterintuitive anomaly in Antonelli et al’’s above-reported data. Puzzling results with no explanation, if not a manuscript typo, usually cause me to call into question the reliability of research findings. Anybody else? 

[unicorn]

7 hours ago, Slvkguy said:

I read it - you have no idea what’s coming next.  Nobody does - that is the point.  

But, here’s another article comparing Delta to Omicron long Covid  - less likely, still a thing 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00941-2/fulltext

 

Well, at least this study did include some omicron cases, although it looks as though they define long Covid as 28 days, although the WHO defines it as 3 months of symptoms. Even with that 28-day definition, "...Among omicron cases, 2501 (4·5%) of 56 003 people experienced long COVID and, among delta cases, 4469 (10·8%) of 41 361 people experienced long COVID. Omicron cases were less likely to experience long COVID for all vaccine timings, with an odds ratio ranging from 0·24 (0·20–0·32) to 0·50 (0·43–0·59). These results were also confirmed when the analysis was stratified by age group...". So from your originally quoted 20%, we go to 10.8% in November 2021 to 4.5% in March of 2022. Do you see a trend? And I personally have had lots of colds in which my symptoms lasted over 28 days (though none 3 months). 

WHO definition of long-Covid:

https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-2019-nCoV-Post_COVID-19_condition-Clinical_case_definition-2021.1

Post COVID-19 condition occurs in individuals with a history of probable or confirmed SARS CoV-2 infection, usually 3 months from the onset of COVID-19 with symptoms and that last for at least 2 months and cannot be explained by an alternative diagnosis. Common symptoms include fatigue, shortness of breath, cognitive dysfunction but also others and generally have an impact on everyday functioning. Symptoms may be new onset following initial recovery from an acute COVID-19 episode or persist from the initial illness. Symptoms may also fluctuate or relapse over time.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, unicorn said:

And I personally have had lots of colds in which my symptoms lasted over 28 days (though none 3 months). 

I’ve never had a cold more than 10 days, I’ve never had Covid & wouldn’t get on a cruise ship if they paid me - but to each his own I guess.

[xpaulo]

14 hours ago, Riobard said:

It appears this cruise fell through the cracks

Yes, I wasn't sure what to make of the comment that the rules for entry to Canada weren't enforced. Everybody entering Canada, including Canadians, are supposed to file the ArriveCan app which has vaccination status in it. Americans often say nobody at the Canadian border asked for their vaccination document but that's because the border people already have it. I didn't realize the government leaves the cruise ship line to enforce that. I may contact the MP for our area since we have cruise ship passengers in contact with local people. And while the Canadian government's policies often make no sense or are inconsistent or are purely for appearances, Canadians are generally no more welcoming of having foreigners point that out than Americans or other nationalities are about their own countries.

[xpaulo]

20 hours ago, unicorn said:

There's a designated gay-friendly bar (about 50% gay). We've socialized with mostly gay couples, but to a lesser extent with straight couples. This virus isn't spread with fomites/shaking hands, as proven by a study which came out almost exactly 2 years ago. If you don't shake hands, do so for viruses other than Covid (Norovirus almost certainly can be spread this way, possibly rhinoviruses as well--though that hasn't been studied). As I'm sure you're aware, there's a huge number of illnesses one can get from sucking dick and eating as... 😉

Ha, ha It's like reading the calories in restaurant meals, I don't want to know about it and ruin the fun.

[unicorn]

7 hours ago, Slvkguy said:

I’ve never had a cold more than 10 days, I’ve never had Covid & wouldn’t get on a cruise ship if they paid me - but to each his own I guess.

I'm happy for you, but as a recently-retired physician, I can tell you that a major chunk of my practice, especially during Fall/Winter, was evaluating just such people. It's extremely common, I'd guess more than 4.5% of those who get colds. If the patient had symptoms suggestive of a sinus infection, I'd usually just treat for a sinus infection for another 10 days, but symptoms would often persist, and further evaluations such as a chest X-ray, sinus CT's, tests for tuberculosis, etc., were usually negative. I'd then prescribe inhaled steroids (asthma meds), and in most cases symptoms would go away by 6 weeks. The percentage of coughs which lingered beyond 4 weeks was far more common, of course, in asthmatics and/or smokers, but could be seen even in non-smokers and non-asthmatics. The study cited above didn't exclude asthmatics or smokers, so the 4.5% figure is not at all surprising.

[unicorn]

12 hours ago, xpaulo said:

...while the Canadian government's policies often make no sense or are inconsistent or are purely for appearances, Canadians are generally no more welcoming of having foreigners point that out than Americans or other nationalities are about their own countries.

Of course, it's rude to go to another country and criticize the hosting country. However, I've seen countless people on this and other boards criticize US policies, which I don't have a problem with (for example, I've seen a lot of Canadians criticize US policies regarding the virus, or gun laws, or what have you). As a very well-traveled person, I also see Canadians, definitely more than any other citizens of any other country on the planet, wear their flags on their clothing or accessories without the flag of the country they're visiting, which I find quite rude. I have sometimes worn my flag along with the hosting country's flag in tandem as a pin, in a show of friendship, but never my own only. 

I realize that in many cases, Canadians are only brandishing their flag to portray the message "I'm not American." In my opinion, that's doubly rude, as a direct insult to both the hosting country and to the US. Although I'm personally grateful I'm American and not Canadian, I would never think of traveling outside the US brandishing an American flag without that flag being joined by the hosting country. 

[Riobard]

He is deeply apologetic about waving or flourishing his weapon in excitement. 

[xpaulo]

On 9/1/2022 at 12:40 PM, unicorn said:

I've seen a lot of Canadians criticize US policies regarding the virus, or gun laws,

Fair point, we can also be quite smug. I find it frustrating when people who have no idea why things are the way they are make judgements. For instance, if somebody were to say why doesn't Biden just ban handguns as if it's that simple. In Canada anything Covid is complicated because health care is a provincial responsibility, but the feds were called on to get involved.

Edited September 3, 2022 by xpaulo
needed context